A single rifle bullet, another victim - but no hope of a doctor

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


a star for you ; its very true that innocents on both sides are simply asking `why` - there are fanatics and lunatics on boths sides and its those in the middle who want to go about there ordenary lives that get killed.

reply to post by seagull


Seagull. Let's see. How many suicide bombing was in the last two years in Israel? Two, three? Maybe less. How many Israelis died? Less then 5.

Let's see what the Israelis did. Cut the power and the food from Gaza, when the Palestinians had enough about this fascist and racist regime and started to protest, because it's their democratic right. Then when this plan not worked for Israel, they rushed in with Tanks and Helicopters and killed 120 civs on why not basis.

And what a strange thing, that when Israel is attacking always teenagers and young ones are dieing and not armed "Terrorists". Have they ever saw a 6 MONTH old baby who is rushing against the IDF with a bomb on his chest? I highly doubt it. But the IDF need to kill the baby because it's a possible terrorist. All the Jews are blind or what? No. The Israeli Jews, with the exception of few, are evil.

Oh. And before I forget, that territory is originally belong to the Palestinians and not to Israel. What a surprise. The Palestinians have the RIGHT to fight for their home. Fascist Israel should have stay silent and disappear.

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Dark Crystalline]

The US has no business at all giving a dime of our tax money to Israel.

They'll probably just spend it on AIPAC lobbyists to lobby our government to attack their enemies for them - after all, it worked in Iraq

As for this shooting, it's typical.

Some of the Israeli's I have talked to are OK, but most of them see the Palestinians as "untermenschen" - less than human.

They feel less for this girl than if it were a stray dog that got shot.

Sadly, the historical irony seems totally lost on these types...

You need to check your sources better. The source you gained this thread from is ANTI-Isreal and ANTI-American. I read some of the other crap articles on that site. A lot of mis information, non facts, opinions, etc...nothing concrete, no sources, etc.

This is the problem...people read something..don't analyze it, know nothing of the source, don't take the time to research the origin of the claim....they just believe it! Read some of the other stuff and you'll see what I mean.

Am I sticking up for Isreal or the actions in this world that kill children and civilians, NO...not at all. But before we unleash feelings and disgust...make sure we have facts from a RELIABLE source...

reply to post by Dark Crystalline


Still haven't seen your proof that it was an Israeli bullet that killed that unfortunate little girl. If it was, the killer should hang. But that won't serve your purposes will it? It was an Israeli bullet, and you'll hear nothing that contradicts your bias.

Wow, the Palestinians have lived there for years upon years? Hmmm...so to did, and have, the Jews. That argument is a wash. They have an equal claim to the land.

No bombs in Israeli lands in the past couple, three, years? What are all those rockets and mortar shells, if not bombs?

This ongoing tragedy has sufficient blame to go around. You really don't need to manufacture blame.

Given the antipathy between various Palestinian groups is almost a match for their hatred of Israel. That bullet could have come from any source.

A note on snipers. Snipers, true snipers, do not do these sort of things. Snipers are not murderers, killers yes, that's the job. There is a difference between the two. They are highly trained in target identification, estimating ranges, etc...simply put, they are soldiers amongst soldiers.

Over the years I've met both Israelis and Palestinians. Every single Israeli I've met was very nice. The same can not be said for every Palestinian that I've met. I would never dream of equating all Palestinians were like the two clowns I ran into in Anchorage, Alaska. Can you say the same about your views on Jews? Never mind, I know you can't, your history of anti-Jewish posts shows that.

Originally posted by seagull
No evidence. There fore it's the evil Jews out murduring again...for all anyone really knows that could have been a stray round from most any source.

The Guardian, 5/3/07, had the article on its front page. From the description the Israelis had occupied the building directly opposite from where the little girl was shot. The shot came in straight through a window into the room. It is from this that it assumed with a fair degree of reason it was an israeli sniper.

I would think it obvious that not all the bullets flying around come from Israeli rifles. Why don't you all wait and make sure it was an Israeli sniper before you start castigating Israel for all the evil in the world, or the Jews in other places.

You're conflating one issue, Israeli responses to terrorist attacks, with general hatred of Jews. No Israel is not responsible for all the evil of the world, only a skinhead (or the Iranian president) would come out with something that idiotic. They are however responsible for the brutal repression of the Palestinian people, creating an apartheid regime that draws justifiable parallels to the ghettoisation of the Jews pre-1939.

But then again squealing about the evil Israeli's is par for the course for many of you...let's hear the same level of outrage when a Palestinian bomber blows himself up on a bus or a shopping mall. I wait with baited breath.

I am sure you will hear plenty of people similarly distressed over the 7 people savagely murdered in west jerusalem yesterday. In no way justifying this attack, but if you were to dig a little deeper and find out why these people were targeted then you will realise these people were not chosen at random.

Both the tragic death of this little girl and the slaughter of those yesterday are representative of a circle of violence that shall know no end if the policies of the 'west' continue. The reason people support Palestine is because in a conflict that is so incredibly disproportionate to remain silent and impartial is to become complicit.

Originally posted by dbates
First of all, absolutely nothing in the article implicates Israel in the shooting. Did the bullet have the Star of David on it? I dont' get how they can tell where the random stray bullet came from. It could have been from someone celebrating a wedding, shooting at a bird, or just testing. We have no idea. This is simply sensationalism.

It was in the middle of a military incursion, only a madman would hold a wedding party with tanks, apaches and f-16s rolling in. From the way the girl was shot it would have to have been either from an elevated position or directly parallel.

Secondly, civilians in Gaza are often hurt because the terrorist launching Qassam rockets pick crowded public places to launch their attacks from. They know that it's a win-win situation for them. If Israel shoots back civilians will probably be killed which will only make Israel look worse.

Qassam rockets are launched from the wastelands to the east of beit hanoun. Due to their lack of range the rockets need a low trajectory, which would be very difficult in an enclosed urban environment. As they are unguided 'dumb' weapons they need direct line of sight.

The mortar would not have the range to reach Israeli civilian populations and was probably in response to a military incursion, during which the Palestinians retreat to the ratruns of the urban areas as Israeli tanks occupy the open boarder areas.

Not making a justification just the facts jack, justs the facts.

reply to post by Dark Crystalline

Do you believe that people are stupid or what

Hmmmm... let me re-read your post and get back to you.

I'm sorry if I have trouble viewing the Guardian as a font of all wisdom, or even a good news source. Biased is the word I would use to describe them.

This is a trajedy, as was the murder of those 7 in Jeruselem, it is symptomatic of the "politics" that have been on going for so many years now. On that I agree with you.

Where I part company with so many of you is that I don't concider either side blameless. All too often, it's either the evil dirty Jews, or the evil dirty Palestinians, with the other side the innocent victims. Couldn't be further from the truth, both sides are complicent in the ongoing war.

Do I come down slightly in favor of the Israeli's? Yes, I do. They at least care for their own, I can't say as I've seen a great deal of that from the Palestinians. The only things a Palestinian "freedom fighter" hates more than an Israeli...is...another Palestinian.

Israeli snipers,when bored normally take shots at kids.Even the jewish settlers are allowed to kill kids if they throw stones at them.

Israel is making and training murderers.

reply to post by tarichar


It is always sad to see innocent children get caught in this mess. This situation reminds me of the little Palestinian boy that was shot in his fathers arms when they were crouched down and dodging bullets between the IDF and Palestinian terrorist years ago. A huge wave of anti-Israel banter was thrown at Israel and it was latter found that the bullet had come from were the Palestinians were firing from so this may be the case here. Snipers don't just miss and shoot a small girl.
To your point that the missiles fired at Israel have no range. They are now shooting a copy of the Russian Grad missile that they got from Iran. They are doing the same thing that them and Hesbola did in 2006 and fire them from roof tops or hide them on the sides of buildings thinking the IDF would be less likely to strike them. If the terrorist in Gaza were not shooting rockets at Israel none of this would have happened and the Israelis held back for years during daily rockets fire at their kids schools in Sderot so don't blame the Israelis for responding to this terror because every country on earth would do the same thing that Israel is doing only the revenge would be much worse.

reply to post by Attari


Proof please?

Israeli marksmen are way too professional to blow their cover simply because of boredom... it would risk the entire formation they are convering and negate their purpose.

And remember, not every man with optics on their rifles is a sniper... there is a big difference between a GI with ACOQ and Marine scout sniper. First ones can misidentify a target and should be given a little slack in combat mistakes. Second ones can be held accountable for every shot they take. (I used US troops as an example, since my knowlegde of IDF is a bit lacking on their proper unit names and missions etc.)


This latest mess after several years of relative peace is only due to Hamas' inability to think beyond fighting... They were given a decent peace deal (not a good one) but they've refused.


Ps. I'm still amazed that palestinos have been playing with rockets for decades, but they are still in pre ww2 quality, even tough they have decent machine shops and electrical engineers... they should be able to make those Qassams much more accurate... but then they would have no exuse for randomly firing at civilian targrets.


PPs. I'm not an Israelu apologist, but people shouldn't condemn Israel simply by kill counts. Is it worse that Israely is actually succesful on the same thing that Hamas tries? (killing)

One would imagine that on a site as intellectual as this, with the motto of "Deny Ignorance" the members would ask for proof prior to lynching anyone.

Just looking at the anti-Israeli posts all through this thread is reminiscent of hate crimes.

I wonder if you all know how you sound or do you just hate Israel so much that you don't care if it's like a rabid dog?

Ignorance denied or propagated?

Semper

reply to post by Attari


Really, you know absolutely nothing of how snipers are trained do you?

Ask SemperFortis, I believe he knows a little somethin' about the topic.

Israeli snipers don't do this sort of thing, no true sniper does. I, too, am a good shot with a rifle, I might, on a really good day, come close to shooting as well as a truely well trained sniper, if he was hung over and suffering from the flu. In no way do I ever remotely delude myself into thinking I could do that job. Shooting isn't the only thing a sniper does, he observes...he reports...in other words, he is a disciplined soldier.

To say they do this when they are bored is to prove you really don't know what you are talking about.

reply to post by northwolf


Israeli snipers killing civillians



Israeli soldiers don't even spare journalists

Whistleblowers' testimony shows desire for revenge on Palestinians

From a distance of 70 metres and through the sight of his machine gun, Assaf could tell that the Palestinian man was aged between 20 and 30, unarmed and trying to get away from an Israeli tank. But the details didn't matter much, because Assaf's orders were to "fire at anything that moved".

Assaf, a soldier in the Israeli army, pressed the trigger, firing scores of bullets as the body fell to the ground. "He ran and I started shooting for a few seconds. He fell. I was a machine. I fire. I leave and that's that. We never spoke about it afterwards."

Another soldier, Moshe, told the Guardian he and his colleagues came under pressure to obey illegal shoot-to-kill orders. As part of his sergeant's training course, he and his fellow trainees were ordered to set up ambushes in Jenin in May 2003. He said there was "pressure to get kills".

www.guardian.co.uk...

Here we see a peaceful demo and israeli soldiers using stun gernades and rubber bullets at very close range.Rubber bullets are nearly as deadly as real ones when shot at close range.

How is someone killing civilians with a machine gun a sniper? Get your story straight Attari.

And shooting everyone that comes close in combat situation is a pretty sensible order in a situation where hostiles aren't wearing uniforms and suicide bombings are a preferred tactic. Ofcourse understanding this would mean that you'd serve in some military to get a soldiers point of view. I'm not approving killing civilians, but if Hamas etc. are not willing to identify themselves from civilians, they are asking IDF to indiscriminately use force on all palestinians in a combat zone.

reply to post by Attari


That all looked like Palestinian Terrorist actions to me, while Israel acted with restraint and composure....

Must be perceptions huh?

Semper

Originally posted by northwolf
How is someone killing civilians with a machine gun a sniper? Get your story straight Attari.

Ohh yes of course,snipers tend to be more nicer to people.If normal israeli soldiers can act in such barbaric way than i wonder how the snipers react when they see a kid walking past their sights with orders to kill anything moving.

And shooting everyone that comes close in combat situation is a pretty sensible order in a situation where hostiles aren't wearing uniforms and suicide bombings are a preferred tactic.

IF thats the case than why not just kill all the palestinians and there will be no terrorists left? Plus the israelis will get more land as a Bonus.

Here are some good videos....


Palestine Terrorist Bombing


And

Palestinian Child Abuse


And

Terrorists Hide Behind Children


Now THAT is some good video...

Semper

reply to post by Attari


So how do you know that the videos are not from when Hammas and Fatah were killing each other? In the second video the one guy has a AK yet the camera guy is shot over and over. Terrorist are proud to film their work now days and it has been a major source of propaganda for their cause. I would bet money that the dirt bags had just fired a rocket at Israel and were filming it. Just because the guy has a camera in his hand don't make him a journalist and he did not look like one. He was with guys with guns so if he was one he was just plain stupid.