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Fascist America - CA Judges Orders NO Homeschooling!

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posted on Mar, 6 2008 @ 10:55 PM
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reply to post by IAttackPeople
 

Well, the language is not specific, and there is sufficient ambiguity to argue the case on appeal. Again, the point of the thread still stands, namely that this is one more step towards complete fascism. The state wants to control every aspect of your lives. And please don't tell me that certified teachers do a better job than parents. Some may, but as soon as Al Shanker and his union cronies started their protection racket with teachers, the quality of education went down- at every level.In fact, it is one of the reasons that some parents homeschool, the pitiful state of their public schools. I saw it even at the college I taught at- a union shop in a "Fair Share State". I wouldn't join the union, but they still took 89% of the dues out of my check. Oh yes, the union "negotiated" for everyone- a 1% to 2% raise each year that I was there. Fortunately, I was not there for the money. I had made enough in business, to accept the tenured position, because I wanted to give students real-life experiences, not just theory. So many of my colleagues were minimalists, and if an administrator asked them to do something that was above or beyond, they ran crying to the union rep.

I think Shakespeare had it right about lawyers,by the way.




posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 01:04 AM
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I homeschool my children. We live in Mississippi...if that doesn't tell you enough...we live in the top school district in Mississippi...that still isn't saying much.

My oldest boy has always been "advanced". He could tell you every letter in the alphabet by the time he was 18 mos old and he taught himself to read by the time he was nearly 4. He was obviously ahead for his age. When it was time for him to start school, I called a local private school and told them what grade level he was at on tests that I had given him at home. The administrator of the school told me that I had done my child a disservice. And that I had done anyone who would ever teach him a disservice and that they would not let him test ahead of his grade level. It is illegal in this state. No matter the intellect or test scores they MUST stay with their age group for "social" reasons.

My sons (I have four ranging from 9 down to 2 and a baby girl that is 3 mos) are all very normal and the furthest thing from anti social. They can sit and carry on a conversation in an adult setting as well go and play with children of all ages, races, religions, etc.

We tried public school here for one year. He was bored out of his mind. He was in trouble constantly because he couldn't be still, he wanted to get up because he was done with his work and go and help other children with their work, he would correct the teacher for stating something incorrectly, and this caused them to threaten him with a paddling and expulsion. He was not combative or argumentative. He didn't fight or have altercations with other students. Needless to say, he did not return this year.

My second oldest son is about to be tested for dyslexia. He feels that his teachers do not listen to a word he says and do not care about him as his teachers last year did. He struggles with reading and yet when given a test he is told to "Figure it out". When he raised his hand to ask for help the teacher replied, "Whatever it is, NO!" He will be coming home next year.

My middle child has a severe wheat allergy and breaks out in eczema from head to toe if he even inhales it. If I do not trust the public school system to teach my older children basic math and english, why would I trust them with a medical condition?

My oldest boy is now, age wise, in the 3rd grade. His reading/spelling/english is college level and most everything else (shy of math) is high school level. His math is grade 6. I wouldn't have it any other way


This article regarding California concerns me greatly...it could affect all of us and not in a good way either.

Mississippi has one good thing going for them. They are very non interventionalist when it comes to homeschooling.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by jenmckin]



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 02:45 AM
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It looks to me as if some home schooled people get a decent education and some don't, some home schooled people are socially adept and some aren't and that some public schooled children have a good time and some don't. Using personalized statements to make an argument would just make this thread last forever. I think there should be some form of accreditation for a person to teach their child at home. You can't do home dentistry. I always imagine Cleetus from the Simpsons teaching his kids....



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 08:21 AM
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reply to post by fackwhacker
 


The numbers do not agree with you. In a comparison between the test scores of homeschooled children whose parents never graduated from high school and public schooled children whose parents never graduated from high school, the public schooled children where out performed by the homeschoolers. In fact the differences in homeschooled students and public schooled children test scores are greatest among children most at risk. Teaching credentials can not trump love.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 10:02 AM
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Originally posted by otherhalf

Parent Education:


found no significant statistical differences in academic achievement between those students taught by parents with less formal education and those students taught by parents with higher formal education



The findings of this study do not support the idea that parents need to be trained and certified teachers to assure successful academic achievement of their children.


Regulation:


whether a state had a high degree of regulation (i.e., curriculum approval, teacher qualifications, testing, home visits) or a state had no regulation of homeschoolers, the homeschooled students in both categories of states performed the same. The students all scored on the average in the 86th percentile regardless of state regulation.


All from here




If you look at some of the quotes and links I provided earlier, you will see there have been studies done on the subject of parent certification. Do a search and I'm sure you'll find more than what I've provided here.

The studies are showing it doesn't matter if a parent is certified to teach. Children score the same no matter what amount of formal teaching education their parents have.

The general feeling is that it's the amount of work and energy you put into it, plus the individual attention given that matters. Just as public school is not for our family, homeschooling, I sure, isn't for everybody. Not every parent has the time, energy, or personal situation that is needed to make homeschooling work. I know a lot of parents who would be miserable if they homeschooled, and wouldn't see the benefits.

I'm not saying parents who don't homeschool are bad parents or I'm better than they are. It's not for everybody. Just as public schooling isn't for everybody. I wouldn't want it to be illegal, or even just difficult, for parents to send their children to public school if that is their choice. Can you imagine if the tables were turned?



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 10:30 AM
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I had a thought on "generalization":

Studies have shown that males under the age of 25 are an auto insurance risk. They are more apt to get in an accident or drive unsafely. That is why auto insurance rates for males under 25 are so outrageous. This is not my opinion, this is what numerous studies have shown. And insurance companies have reacted to that information and raised rates for ALL males under 25.

Now, I know some males under 25 who are better drivers than most people behind the wheel of a vehicle. They shouldn't have to pay the higher rates. But, according to the studies, they are the exception.



Studies regarding homeschoolers are scientific studies. They were done by people with credentials and knowledge in the areas studied. So they are regarded as very valid.

They MAJORITY of homeschoolers excel in academics. The MAJORITY of homeschoolers are socially and emotionally well adjusted. The MAJORITY of homeschoolers scored above their public school peers regardless of their parents schooling. Not just the children of the few who posted in this thread. The MAJORITY of homeschoolers nationwide.

The studies show the rule, not the exception. The idea of a homeschooled child being a sheltered, uneducated, religious zealot who can't function normally in the outside world is just not reality.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 11:28 AM
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Thumbs up again to Otherhalf



Another point that needs to be considered by those wanting proof of success...

First of all since everyone's definition of success is different it's already a moot question. But, for those who say success is revealed in pursuing higher education or in making high figures I would say the jury is still out. Although homeschooling has always been around in one form or another, it is my understanding that it really took off as a bona fide movement around the 80's. Up until then most homeschooling families just tried to quietly go about their business and not stoke the fire. Many of the young adults coming out of homeschooling programs are only now entering college or the work force en masse. Even statistics as to how many homeschoolers there are are flawed as they don't even consider children who still fall under the compulsory age. Since more and more people are opting to homeschool, the national statistic is likely higher than what it is believed to be. Try to find current statistics in an average google search and it is hard to find recent studies. Most immediate results go back to 2004 or earlier. The numbers are only now starting to really reveal themselves. I would guess a decade or so from now the real success of homeschooling will start to show its evidence in any kind of worldview.

Of course you could always look to history to find some successful homeschoolers.........Ben Franklin, Albert Einstein, and Thomas Edison immediately come to mind for a start.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 11:32 AM
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Here's a fun link to a list of some "successful" homeschoolers.

www.homeschoolacademy.com...



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 04:36 PM
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Well this is good... at least Arnie's on the side of the homeschoolers.


Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger promised today to ensure that parents have the right to homeschool their children, after a state appeals court ruling severely restricted the practice in California.

"Every California child deserves a quality education and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children," the governor said in a statement. "Parents should not be penalized for acting in the best interests of their children's education. This outrageous ruling must be overturned by the courts and if the courts don't protect parents' rights then, as elected officials, we will."
source


Edit: On a sidenote, I wish they wouldn't always portray homeschoolers as Christians who want to "shelter" their children from teachings of evolution and such. Not all homeschoolers are religious or have religious reasons for wanting to homeschool their kids.

[edit on 3/7/2008 by Kruel]



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 10:29 PM
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Government schools = Indoctrination centers. This is why the move toward banning home schooling will continue; the gov wants control of your child’s mind. Does anyone really believe that some union hack with a class of 50 is going to be able to teach a child better than his own parents? Even if the professional is better equipped, which is debatable, the parents love and motivation will always produce better results. As to the socialization factor, there are plenty of ways to socialize your child properly without exposing them to the sewer of government schools. YMCA sports/Church are good examples. I don’t have children, but my mother taught me to read a couple of years before they started it in school, and it’s made all the difference.



posted on Mar, 7 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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Originally posted by resistor
Government schools = Indoctrination centers.


Government schools = suicide factories.



posted on Mar, 8 2008 @ 01:57 PM
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epaa.asu.edu...

The above link has a very comprehensive demographic study concerning homeschooled children, and their parents.
I urge anyone interested in this topic to please read this study, regardless of the side you are on.

Let me summarize a few of the findings:

Parents of homeschoolers have SIGNIFICANTLY better credentials as far as teaching and education than non-homeschoolers' parents.

While slightly less than half of the general population attended or graduated from college, almost 88% of home school students have parents who continued their education after high school.

Over 97% of homeschoolers live in a two-parent family....

Homeschoolers watch significantly less television than non-homeschoolers...

On average, home school students are in larger families.


As with the other studies that we have cited in this thread, this study shows that homeschoolers are much higher achievers scholastically than non-homeschoolers.

I've only cited a few of the facts. Please peruse the link above. It should answer any concerns that some of you have concerning homeschooling.

This case was brought about by the teachers union. This case has nothing to do with educational standards, but EVERYTHING to do with teachers being afraid of LOSING THEIR JOBS.

I can tell you, since I worked in a "fair share" state, and as a college professor, I HAD to pay union dues, even though I was against the union, there were MANY colleagues that used the union contract as an excuse NOT TO be more than minimalists as teachers. They were the last into the buildings every day, and the first ones out, never staying for office hours one minute longer than the contract stipulated. Those of us that were non-union or against the union typically held 2 to 3 times more office hours than the contract required. I could go on forever about what we did, versus what the union proponents did, but suffice it to say, that in most instances, the students suffered when from the "union mentality".

I believe that teaching is not something you get into for the money. There are far more financially rewarding fields available for those with equivalent degrees. Teachers that have to invoke union rules all the time should not be teaching.

I am not against unions in general, there are fields and job categories where they are essential. However, IMO, teaching is not one of them. Existing labor laws provide all the protection that teachers need.



posted on Mar, 8 2008 @ 02:05 PM
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reply to post by jenmckin
 


I congratulate you on being such a wonderful parent, and providing such a loving home and education. The love and concern that you have shown could NEVER be equaled in most public schools. I'm also happy that MS at least allows you to be such a great parent. It seems that Croskey doesn't want to allow California parents the same courtesy.

By the way, I personally don't think that even if the CA Supreme Court confirms the ruling, that any challenge to the US Supreme Court would jeopardize homeschooling, since the ruling was based upon CA law, which had the "parent must be able to teach" in the law.

If the US Supreme Court ruled that homeschooling was illegal, that would be a GROSS VIOLATION of STATES RIGHTS, for any state that did NOT have that requirement in it. I think at that point, there would be an outcry so loud, that Congress would have to act. I just don't see this ruling being extended to all 50 states. Having said that, we need to do all we can to put pressure on CA to reverse this fascist decision.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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Im going to answer the issue with this thread once and for all. It is so full proof that no one can argue this.

If mothers must have teaching degrees to teach their own kids then if you want to run for congress, senate, or president you need teaching, economic, foreign relations, finance, history, and math. If I cant teach my kids without a degree you cant run or make decisions for this country without one from each of the above. Period.

[edit on 9-3-2008 by mybigunit]



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 03:40 PM
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reply to post by ProfEmeritus
 


hey, that is just great that so many of you believe there can be no EXCEPTIONS to parents wanting to homeschool their children. so... you will not be concerned when muslim parents want to homeschool their children only in the way of islamic teachings, or pagan parents want to homeschool their children only in the teaching of witchcraft or how about scientology parents homeschooling their kids strictly in the ron hubbard way of living and how about those devil worshippers keeping their kids at home to teach them about the glorious worship of the devil.

the california supreme court DID NOT outlaw home schooling...in this particular case with this particular family is what they ruled on. hysteria has replaced common sense.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 04:20 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 


Actually, yes, each of the groups you mentioned should have the same right to homeschool their children. This is NOT a one-sided issue. I am a Christian and firmly believe this.

I need to re-read the CA issue at hand to comment any further on it, but this I will say: no matter what the initial reason is for the denial, it can set a precedent that could impose further judgement down the road in a more widespread manner.



posted on Mar, 9 2008 @ 05:43 PM
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reply to post by jimmyx
 





hey, that is just great that so many of you believe there can be no EXCEPTIONS to parents wanting to homeschool their children. so... you will not be concerned when muslim parents want to homeschool their children only in the way of islamic teachings, or pagan parents want to homeschool their children only in the teaching of witchcraft or how about scientology parents homeschooling their kids strictly in the ron hubbard way of living and how about those devil worshippers keeping their kids at home to teach them about the glorious worship of the devil.


Absolutely, I would not be concerned if Muslims or any other group wanted to homeschool THEIR own children. The government has NO RIGHT to tell parents what to teach their own children, as long as it does not result in harm to others.
In fact, if the government DOES try to tell parents what they can teach their children, it crosses the barrier of separation of church and state, which this country says it does not want to do.

It's very odd that some of the same people that scream about separation of church and state, are the first ones to try to impose their "state" religion on others.

As for your last statement, it completely contradicts what virtually everyone in the country is saying about the general application of this heinous ruling by this activist judge.

If YOU wish to send your children to the state-run institutions, that is your right. You and the state have NO RIGHT to tell others how to raise their children.

If you do not see what is happening here, some night, there will be a knock on your door, and the modern-day Gestapo will be coming to drag you away to the interrogation chambers, where thanks to Bush's veto, you can be "waterboarded".





Croskey said in his ruling:

"A primary purpose of the educational system is to train school children in good citizenship, patriotism and loyalty to the state and the nation as a means of protecting the public welfare," the judge wrote, quoting from a 1961 case on a similar issue.

The above is from:
www.sfgate.com.../c/a/2008/03/07/MNJDVF0F1.DTL

Notice the line about patriotism and loyalty to the state. You know who else made such statements? Here are a few of them:
Stalin, and just about every other USSR Premier
Hitler
Mao Tse Tung

Croskey is in good company with his buddies.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by mybigunit
If mothers must have teaching degrees to teach their own kids then if you want to run for congress, senate, or president you need teaching, economic, foreign relations, finance, history, and math. If I cant teach my kids without a degree you cant run or make decisions for this country without one from each of the above. Period.


It goes further than that. The point of politicians not requiring degrees gives (at least in theory) power to ordinary people with no special interests. For some positions this is taken more seriously than others, as this clip from wikipedia shows:


By statute the Secretary [of Defense] must be a civilian who has not served in the active component of the armed forces for at least 10 years.


It's nice to know that someone is concerned about the awesome power of the military, and fearful of their interference in politics. But is it really any different about the power of the educational establishment and its interference in parenting?!



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
hey, that is just great that so many of you believe there can be no EXCEPTIONS to parents wanting to homeschool their children. so... you will not be concerned when muslim parents want to homeschool their children only in the way of islamic teachings, or pagan parents want to homeschool their children only in the teaching of witchcraft or how about scientology parents homeschooling their kids strictly in the ron hubbard way of living and how about those devil worshippers keeping their kids at home to teach them about the glorious worship of the devil.


This is really an issue of parental rights. While there are some extreme Bible-thumping hypocrites who feel that only they have the right to raise their children their way; the majority of Christian homeschoolers would prefer that Islamic, Neo-pagan, Wiccan, Scientologist, Satanic, etc. parents have the same rights. After all, they are all on the same side, that of personal freedom.

Another thing. Fighting for the right to establish an independent school, or to homeschool your child is not the same as fighting to take over the government school system. Dominance of a school system is a zero-sum game. Breaking away from it (by setting up alternatives) is not.



posted on Mar, 10 2008 @ 05:37 PM
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Originally posted by jimmyx
 


hey, that is just great that so many of you believe there can be no EXCEPTIONS to parents wanting to homeschool their children. so... you will not be concerned when muslim parents want to homeschool their children only in the way of islamic teachings, or pagan parents want to homeschool their children only in the teaching of witchcraft or how about scientology parents homeschooling their kids strictly in the ron hubbard way of living and how about those devil worshippers keeping their kids at home to teach them about the glorious worship of the devil.



1. NO, I have no problem with any of the above.

2. Parents will teach their children their beliefs, whether or not they homeschool.

3. Even if I don't agree with a particular religion or the way some people raise their kids, I agree with parental and religious rights for everyone. As long as no other person's rights are being trampled on in the process.

4. Your example above used many different religions. Don't forget, there is only a small percentage that homeschool for religious reasons.

5. Although the lines are getting blurred, we still do have separation of church and state.





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