Bible written while high?, page 2

Bible written while high?, page 2

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ATS Members have flagged this thread 4 times

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:15 AM by InSpiteOf

reply to post by Mr. Ree

Now now, we can discuss this and be civil. There is no need to push peoples religious buttons.

reply to post by GradyPhilpott

I guess the author is thinking that if one cultures religious stories were psychedelic induced, the others could be as well.

Of course, reading the book i mentioned, the author takes it further to say, that stories of the use of the mushroom and other drugs, became literal and twisted over the centuries.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:34 AM by jimbo999

reply to post by junglejake

Hmmm...you all realise just what this means of course?? It pains me to admit this, but on this evidence - it appears the Hippies had it right all along!!

Psychotropic drug use and religious practice have a long history world wide - stretching back many thousands of years - so I see no real contradiction here.

It's quite concievable that the practice lasted many hundreds or thousands of years in the Jewish religion - why not. There was no concept of 'drugs' being dangerous or immoral back then. These are quite recent concepts.

I differ with your opinion on 'predictions' in the bible; no-one has any idea of who wrote what or when really. As for 44 authors? I believe that's 'official' authors accepted by the church leaders. The actual number of re-writes, re-translations and various other 'edits' number into the thousands, and have been pretty well conclusively attested to by biblical scholars and experts on ancient languages long ago.

J.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:35 AM by jojoKnowsBest

Originally posted by junglejake

The article seems to put forward that, because two plants found in the desert, when combined in as brew of ayahuasca, cause hallucinations, and (I'm inferring this) because the author doesn't believe in God, it must mean the Israelis took the drug to experience what took place at Sinai.

Hmm...

I heard an interview on C to C about ayahuasca, according to the interviewee it causes you to cross over to the spiritual plane, and this is why the natives in the Amazon use it. The first couple of times you take it you suffer from extreme nausea for about an hour or two then it kicks in and all of a sudden you are teleported to the spirit word and you can walk around and explore it for hours encountering beings.

I'm no biblical scholar but if you look certain experiences in the bible and Koran, don’t they seem like out of body experiences? Exploring the many levels of heaven; the Arch Angel Gabriel coming to Muhammad in the cave and speaking God's will to him? Someone on another post told me our body’s releases a hallucinogen before we die and maybe this is to either help us cross over to the spirit world, or comfort us before we die. Some believe that the ancient Egyptians used gold powder and other mixtures of other metal to reach a higher state of being, a higher level of consciousness.

Just because the Israelites may have been on this stuff does not mean that it didn’t really help them cross over to god’s plane of existence as the Amazonians do with ayahuasca.

For the last twenty-five years, Dennis McKenna has pursued the interdisciplinary study of ethnopharmacology and plant hallucinogens. He is co-author, with his brother Terence, of The Invisible Landscape: Mind, Hallucinogens, and the I Ching (Seabury Press, 1975; Citadel Press, 1991), a philosophical and metaphysical exploration of the ontological implications of psychedelic drugs which resulted from the two brothers' early investigations of Amazonian hallucinogens in 1971. He received his doctorate in 1984 from the University of British Columbia. His doctoral research focused on ethnopharmacological investigations of the botany, chemistry, and pharmacology of ayahuasca and oo-koo-he, two orally-active tryptamine-based hallucinogens used by indigenous peoples in the Northwest Amazon.

Psychoactive Plants

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jojoKnowsBest]

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:35 AM by junglejake

Not having read the book, but basing these assumptions on your summary as well as a few other times I believe the same book has come up (there are a couple of discussions on the board about the Jesus - mushroom symbolism), it sounds like a stretch. There seem to be two assumptions made on the outset -- that anything that can't be explained must be hallucinogenic, and that drugs are a central focus in people's mindset.

The first is discussed all over the place here.

However, the second is more interesting. We have seen the degradation of every thread I've seen here on ATS where drugs are mentioned in any capacity into an experiential conversation and discussion about how awesome drugs are. Often times people state that people all want to get high with whatever is available (as was stated earlier in this thread, too). I once was in this camp, too. I'm not saying that everyone who uses drugs or is an advocate of them does this in threads here or in regular discussion, but it is very common. It's like the phallic focus of teenagers, where everything is a reference to the penis. Again, this is without having read the book but just your and others' summaries, it seems like the author had this focus.

In addition to this, there is a ton of historical evidence that would have to be dismissed to make this fit, including prophecy, as I mentioned earlier, that was made hundreds of years before it came to pass.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:41 AM by jimbo999

Originally posted by jdposey
I suppose if we follow the thinking process of the article, then we are lead to assume that the Mount of Transfiguration incident was also a drug trip.

Six days later Jesus took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. (Matthew 17: 1-3)

Speaking of Moses, I wonder how this same gentleman would explain Moses and the parting of the Red Sea, as the multitude of Israelites crossed over on dry sea bed, between the waters, to the other side of the shore? Are we to assume they were all hallucinating and actually came out wet on the other side?

Actually there is an interesting theory about just that story. It's been a while since I read it: but the general idea was that it was not actually 'The Red Sea' (that was a later mistranslation) but a large marsh in Egypt that dried up peiodically - thereby allowing them to 'cross'. The Egyptians followed days later after heavy rains - but found it impassable when they reached the marsh..

Interesting concept that makes much more sense.

J.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jimbo999]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jimbo999]

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jimbo999]

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:50 AM by jimbo999

reply to post by junglejake

In addition to this, there is a ton of historical evidence that would have to be dismissed to make this fit, including prophecy, as I mentioned earlier, that was made hundreds of years before it came to pass.

Again, I honestly don't see how you can verify this statement as, as I mentioned before, dating biblical quotes is notoriously difficult and scholars freely admit that it would have been very easy to credit long-dead personages with prophetic statements with the simple addition of a few new lines.

J.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:51 AM by jojoKnowsBest

reply to post by jimbo999

I also heard that story a while ago. They think the "Red Sea" was mistranslated and it was supposed to be the “Reed Sea”, because as jimbo says it was a marsh, and it was full of reeds, which thrive in marshes.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 10:55 AM by mr-lizard

I've also heard that some buddist compare reaching enlightenment with similar feelings as the effects of certain psychoactive elements such as ayahuasca, mescaline and such....

I don't disbelieve it.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:00 AM by groingrinder

I think the author of the article needs to actually take the hallucinogen he is saying is responsible for this bible passage. It sounds like he is writing about something he has no actual experience with. It takes a mighty hallucinogen to produce contact with God. I have NOT been able to get this experience with Acid, DMT, Peyote, Mescaline, or massive 12 gr. dry doses of magic mushrooms. If this hallucinogenic plant exists and produces a God experience, it would be widely known about in the drug counter culture. IT IS NOT.

FYI Amanita Muscaria doesn't really have any hallucinogens either. People who write about this stuff need to get out of their chair and go out and try to actually obtain a hallucination on it. All it does is make you sicker than a dog.

Been there. Done that. Have the t-shirt.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:03 AM by jojoKnowsBest

Some Buddhist monks reached a higher state of consciousness by suffocating themselves. They had a leather strap that they would tie around there neck and leg, this would cut of the level of oxygen enough to cause a state of euphoria. Some monks would go into the mountains to end there lives this way. They would find a cave in the mountains and meditate there for weeks until they die. There bodies would become mummified sitting upright, cross legged. Some of these mommies are preserved by the locals as religious relics. Sadly many kids do the same thing in order to get a high and they end up killing themselves.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by jojoKnowsBest]

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:17 AM by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by jojoKnowsBest
I heard an interview on C to C about ayahuasca, according to the interviewee it causes you to cross over to the spiritual plane, and this is why the natives in the Amazon use it. The first couple of times you take it you suffer from extreme nausea for about an hour or two then it kicks in and all of a sudden you are teleported to the spirit word and you can walk around and explore it for hours encountering beings.

A few misconceptions:

Ayahuasca will make you nauseated, ALWAYS.

The purposeful use of Ayahuasca is not limited to walking the spiritual plane. It is used to talk to the spirits of the dead, the forrest, the gods, other biengs, etc.

You arent teleported, you are fully aware of your trancendance, and it is often very tricky to get wherever you want to go. (by want I actually mean, where the BREW wants to take you.)

One journey often differs from the other, though striking similarities exist between them.

Just because the Israelites may have been on this stuff does not mean that it didn’t really help them cross over to god’s plane of existence as the Amazonians do with ayahuasca.

It seems more likely to me that the isrealites would have come in contact with more desert faring psychoactive plants, rather than the termpermental amazonian basin plants. Buts thats more opinion than fact.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:20 AM by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by junglejake
Again, this is without having read the book but just your and others' summaries, it seems like the author had this focus.

The purpose of the book and other similar literature is not to suggest that spiritualism is just a high, but rather, spiritualism and altered states (from exogenous or endogenous sources) are two sides of the same coin.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:21 AM by jdposey

reply to post by jimbo999

From the book: The Exodus Case. I think it would be worth checking the book out. You would be surprised at what evidence they have discovered at the bottom of the Red Sea, aside from Chariot Wheels (Pictured), and other evidence which the book shows.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:25 AM by InSpiteOf

Originally posted by groingrinder
It takes a mighty hallucinogen to produce contact with God.

Everyone's reactions will be different. Just because one substance produced Ego loss or God contact for one person, does not mean the same will happen to you.

If this hallucinogenic plant exists and produces a God experience, it would be widely known about in the drug counter culture. IT IS NOT.

I beg to differ, Dimetheltryptamine is widely considered the most powerful hallucinogen and its use is ripe with stories of contact beyond the veil, from ET's to God/godlike forms.

FWI Mescaline is the "main active" alkaloide in peyote.

FYI Amanita Muscaria doesn't really have any hallucinogens either.

Not entirely true. The use of the mushroom can produce psychedelic effects, but its more likely to make you feel like crap. I believe the proper use of this mushroom is to use it after its gone through someones digestive system.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:36 AM by WorldShadow

All one has to do is look at those who belch divine teachings today and you will have your answer to than. Most of these tele preachers and book thumpers are high on themselves if not on wine and smoke. That thing with waving smoke around at church is really a fall over when they burned the weed and got every one high at prayer gatherings.

Get every one high while preaching the gospel and religious experience soars.

By my beard, he lives!!!

Incense, mir, and mana; sure!.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:56 AM by BugZyZuncle

Originally posted by Mr. Ree

It's obvious to most people who have delved into drugs that the bible was written by those under the influence of something.

The Bible was written by those under the influence of the Holy Spirit, as God directed them to write.

You people will do/say anything to remove God from the equation so that you can justify your way of living.

Rest assured that God will let you believe anything that your deceived minds can conjur. He wants no part of you!

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:58 AM by crestone

Originally posted by junglejake

However, that falls apart as you look at the book as a whole. There is a unity throughout all of scripture where everything points to one thing, namely the cross. It doesn't contradict itself (though there are some areas that seem as contradiction until you become familiar with the whole thing and/or the context of the seeming contradiction), it contains predictions that came to pass (ex. Daniel predicting the fall of the Roman empire and how before the Roman empire even existed), and again, unity of purpose.

Now you have a huge problem on your hands, because no drug I've heard of gives humanity a collective conscious that spans time and allows the same story to be told through 44 authors over the span of 1,500 years.

Hmm...

You are omitting the fact that the book was edited. That blows your logic right out of the water. If you pick and choose you can make any texts look like they would go together.

Have you heard of Stanislav Grof, M.D., Ph.D. ? His research into drugs is very interesting.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 11:59 AM by RUFFREADY

Makes a whole lot of sense, way back in the jesus days and before, people got really stoned on these drugs and wrote all kinds of mind blowing stories . Also, they passed along stories to others that wrote them latter e.g. "The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross" a popular book.

You gotta come to grips," Occam's Razor

ne should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything."

Just off the top of my head, I think they called them (after WWII) "the Cargo Cults" where natives use to think gods from the sky dropped them gifts (parachutes fell on tropical Islands with different stuff etc..our cool stuff fell in to primitive natives hands) the natives after WWII after not getting any more "drops' started carving airplanes and radio sets etc... trying to call the gods....Some people, even educated folks still do that , in a modern sort of way IMHO.

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 12:06 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by jimbo999

The 26th chapter of Ezekiel records a prophecy against Tyre.

1. That Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon, would conquer Tyre (vv. 7-1 1).

2. That the city would be made desolate (v. 4).

3. That it would be thrown into the sea (v. 12).

4. That it would become a place to spread nets upon (v. 14).

5. That its maritime supremacy would cease forever (v. 17).

Guess what? It all was fufilled.

Here's what actually happened as verified by secular historians.

In 590 BC, Ezekiel makes his prediction.

Four years later, in 586 BC Nebuchadnezzar attacks the coastal city of Tyre.

One year later, in 585 BC most of Tyre's inhabitants move out to a nearby island and rebuild.

17 years after the initial prophecy in 573 BC, Nebuchadnezzar finally destroys the coastal city. That's part one of the prophecy.

Two hundred years after Ezekiel goes to his grave, in 333 BC Alexander the Great attacks the island city by scraping debris from the original coastal city and throwing it into the water to build a land bridge to it.

Centuries later, in AD 1321 the island city is destroyed by Muslims during the Crusades.

Today, the original mainland site of Tyre is as "bare as a rock." There is a city named Tyre, but it exists only as a small fishing village down the coast from the ancient city.

Ezekiel couldn't have guessed that those things would happen. The story of Tyre and others is evidence that God directed the writing of the Bible.

[edit on 3/4/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 4-3-2008 @ 12:06 PM by merryxmas

I had a feeling when I saw the title about the author and I was right. Professor Benny Shanon. Graham Hancock mentions him more than once in interviews on C2C when he was relaying his Ayahuasca experience to Art. Click here for Part 6 of the Graham Hancock C2C interview.

Originally posted by groingrinder
I think the author of the article needs to actually take the hallucinogen he is saying is responsible for this bible passage. It sounds like he is writing about something he has no actual experience with.

I'm sorry but you are very uninformed on this, see above.

It takes a mighty hallucinogen to produce contact with God. I have NOT been able to get this experience with Acid, DMT, Peyote, Mescaline, or massive 12 gr. dry doses of magic mushrooms. If this hallucinogenic plant exists and produces a God experience, it would be widely known about in the drug counter culture. IT IS NOT.

It has produced a very mighty and spiritual experience for hundreds if not thousands of people. If your knowledge precludes you from knowing this it isn't indicative of everyone. I am aware of it.

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