He broke the law - twice ("cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally", "refused to appear in court"). Had he not done so, four people and a dog might still be alive today, and umpteen zillion tax dollars wouldn't have been pissed away.

Predictably, upon the pronouncement of not guilty at his trial, Weaver now has faith in "the system".

Please explain how this man's selfish, irresponsible behavior makes him a victim?

Wasn't there a movie that had this story sort of woven in??? Arlington road???

Originally posted by Gerald Bostock

1) He broke the law - twice ("cut off the barrels of two shotguns illegally", "refused to appear in court"). Had he not done so, four people and a dog might still be alive today, and umpteen zillion tax dollars wouldn't have been pissed away.

2) Predictably, upon the pronouncement of not guilty at his trial, Weaver now has faith in "the system".

3) Please explain how this man's selfish, irresponsible behavior makes him a victim?

1) It seems that yu have your own version of what's happened. Explain me why it was necessary to kill his wive and his son ? His son was shot in the BACK by a sniper !

2) Fortunately for him, the jury peoples were not from the FBI/ATF.

3) Selfish ? Irresponsible ? Cuz he wanted just to live away from our civilisation?

P.S : I remember this pic BoB88.

Was Randy Weaver a murderer? Sure - he committed a few crimes. In my post I said 'heavy handed' - did they need snipers and all the other armament?

The Portland Protest: Just because the gear looks abnormal to you, you call them Bush's personal Storm troopers? It does say 'police' on the uniform and looks like the gear the PD my old man worked at uses. The other pic isn't all that legible. Or did I miss something? If I didn't - that's one hell of an assumption. What the phrase about assuming and making an ass out of yourself

There's no excuse for a police officer to spray a child in the face. If that happened to me and my child under the same circumstances, I'd make that officers life a living hell. (Thatís if were to take the protesters word for it) I'll also add that I wouldn't bring my children to protests and put them in danger. Protests, as peaceful as they can be, can also turn violent. Children at that age have no idea what the protest is about or for - or against. Leave them with a sitter - otherwise they're being selfish and are putting them in harms way - those parents should be ashamed of themselves!!!

Not that pic with the old lady being grabbed around the throat ( I can't believe you don't find that appalling!?!?)
, the other pic. I know it's small but the only one I have. That body armor and face shield/breathing gear is NOT standard issue cop stuff.
Search "Portland Protest" - we're talking '60's flower power, senior citizens, brass band playing protest....not Sandinistas hurling stones, for Christ's sake!!! If you can't take your kids to something as peaceful as to have clowns & a band, and NOT be near the main site & still get attacked by the over zealous police/special police force.......well, you allow that and I guess you also believe in the 'freedom of speech zones' that they fence off on public land, huh?

Ruby Ridge - Heavy handed? Sure. Saints on either side, nope.

Originally posted by Bout Time

1) U-P: The Aryan Nation = para military, criminal, rascist, murdering extremeists. They are also a driving force behind the militias that go up into the woods and shoot at tresspasser.
I had already hit 5'10"-195 lbs and had a mustache when I was 14....easy call to say a man is shooting.
No one will sing patriotic songs for criminals who think Hitler is God and believe it is the 1800's.

2) You want an example of improper force? Look no further than the Portland Protest. A peaceful protest, rushed by Bush's personal Storm Troopers.

They Choked a Senior Citizen with a nightstick, who was peacefully standing behind a barrier

1) BT, It's written that all his problems cames when he REFUSED to infiltrate the Aryan Nation, when the BATF/FBI asked ( ordered ) him to do it. He was not an Aryan Nation Member. And even if he was a A.N member, I don't see why the cops had to shot his son in the back and killing his wife too !

And no, I don't think that Hitler is God !!!!!!!!! For me, he was an Evil and Satanic guy !!!!

2) Yes, and what ? Do you think that I'm feeling happy when I see your pic ????

Bout Time, it's not because BoB88 and myself are " right-wingers " that we are nazis.

that lady in the pic looks like an evildoer if I have ever seen one!

In all fairness, a picture can tell a thousand words - but those pics do not.

[Edited on 20-12-2002 by Bob88]

U-P... I helped a local police department set up a BBS (back in 1984) and helped them monitor the local Aryan Nation groups, which had a "super-secret" BBS where they were coordinating some of their (rather ineffective) local efforts.

I've read their literature.

UP, Weaver's agenda ran like this:

He and his Aryan Nation deserved to have all the guns and ammo they wanted. Guns and ammo were a God-given right of anyone with blue eyes and blonde hair. If you didn't qualify (weren't blonde enough or didn't have the right kind of eyes) you needed to get your "mudblood" carcass out of the way and be a nice little slave to the True Race.

He wrote plenty of hate-filled messages about this world needing to be reformed so that his precious little blonde, blue-eyed boy could grow up to be like his daddy. This Aryan Nation BBS had a whole collection of them

He had started a long list (with addresses) of officials that he wanted assassinated (local officials were added by local members of the Aryan Nation.) This included any official who passed laws they didn't like and any police officer who ticketed them for any reason. It also included some Hispanic and Black business owners, judges, lawyers, and ministers (as I recall.)

The Aryan race was entitled to the land. He could build a house wherever he liked, if he didn't have enough money to pay taxes or pay for the land, well the person who sold it to him should just be grateful that one of the master race was living there. And he (Weaver) would defend his property against the nasty former owner and the nasty tax officials (because it was un-American to pay taxes!) and nasty police officers (called out because he was shooting at people) with his guns and anything else.

He was prepared to die. He was prepared to have his family killed as a "sacrifice" that would trigger off the great Aryan Nation takeover.

Bottom line: this guy was a Nazi (that's what the Aryan Nation movement here in America is) who promoted Hitler's views along with the idea that the world should worship blondes and should allow the True Race to do anything they liked. Paying taxes and working for a living was something the "mudblood slaves" did.

That's a rough summary of what I read while I showed the cops how to get on the board. I know that one of them did manage to get inside the organization after that. Never heard anything else... and I didn't go asking any details. However, none of the people on that long list of targets was ever assassinated.

(that summary can't even BEGIN to convey the real bile and hatred on that BBS.)

I have no sympathy for the jerk. He set himself and his family up to be sacrifices to trigger a revolt... just like the suicide bombers do. Except he was willing for his wife and children to die just to prove his political point.

His excuse that he was attacked because he "refused to help the BATF" is a bit of propaganda passed out by the Aryan Nation. He refused to surrender to the BATF... big difference, there. The BATF (and others) couldn't get close enough to the jerk to negotiate with him and there was no indication that he would ever consider any position that didn't include a country that granted a free ride and full rights to blue-eyed blondes and a form of economic and social slavery for everyone else.

[Edited on 20-12-2002 by Byrd]

I should add one last:

The stuff I'm telling you about is from the message boards and internal docs posted on the "sooper-sekrit" board for the Aryan Nation. As is typical with public postings for the Aryan Nation, the racial slurs and "enslave them all" agenda gets dropped out so that suddenly he's presented as a noble martyr.

I saw his real writings.

I saw his real ideas.

The man is every bit as monstrous as Hitler. If he'd managed to raise an army, he would have had as many atrocities to his name as Hitler does to his.

Before the Ruby Ridge incident he had no criminal record that I am aware of. I wouldn't defend him Byrd on anything you mentioned. If what you said is accurate ñ I can only say he is entitled to free speech, not that I like it or support it. People can say just about anything they want ñ it shouldnít get their wife and son murdered. As a result of his BBS activity was he ever brought up on charges?? Weaver had no criminal record prior to the shotgun incident that I am aware, so ënoí is probably the answer. The shotgun incident was itself a joke, if not entrapment and he removed only enough for the barrel to be illegal, just barely. And if true, the failure to show up in court charge was because the courts notice listed the wrong day (or something like that). Which remains to be his only true crime to this day ñ he was found innocent of the weapons charge. Maybe he was a hateful person ñ thatís not my point. The ëthought policeí were totally heavy handed and the whole incident was major screw up, which resulted in the deaths of his wife and child (and dog). They donít send an army after everyone that fails to show up for court.

[Edited on 20-12-2002 by Bob88]

Thanks Byrd.

It seems that I did a big mistake.I was thinking that this guy was another innocent man targeted by the Fed's.

And you know Byrd, I do not support nazis.

Thanks again for your post.

P.S : But I would like to know why a BATF sniper had to shot a kid in the back and a mother whith his son !? And the dog ? What was the problem with him ? he was reading Mein Kampf ?

Nor do I support nazi's, Aryans, the klan, or any sort of hate group. But, I can not accept what the government did in that situation. The government was way out of line.

among other things, I'd also like to know why the sniper took the 5th amendment during the senate hearings.

For the record, I think there's lots to blame on all sides.

The person who put Weaver's son in mortal danger was Weaver himself. The person who handed Weaver's son a rifle and ammunition and said "shoot to kill" was Weaver himself.

Not the government. Not the snipers. Not the police. Not the neighbors. Not chemtrails, Bigfoot, gray aliens, Legolas the Elf, Jehovah, Barney or the Care Bears.

Frankly, my children aren't little sacrifices to my personal goals and dreams. From what I saw of Weaver's postings, he thought that such tragic sacrifices simply ennobled the White Separatist cause.

I didn't follow him after that one incident to see if he changed his mind on Noble Sacrifices and if, years later, he would have simply walked out and fought in the courts or if he would have again handed the rifles to his kids and said, "We're in a war out here. Those are the bad guys. Shoot to kill."


P.S.: I did ask the cops (when I set up their Fidonet connections) if they were going to arrest Weaver. They said that they were monitoring him and they told me about "Freedom of Speech." He had the right to post hateful messages and list people he thought should be killed -- as long as he didn't cross over into the "We are getting together at 8 pm tomorrow night to lynch Al Ferguson." That's what he was being monitored for.

I didn't see the cops again after I set the computer up and finished the training and didn't hear Weaver's name again till Ruby Ridge came up. Having seen what his goals were and what his much earlier ideals were, the outcome really didn't surprise me at all. What *did* surprise me is that so few people died. I expected him to go out in a firefight that would end up with his entire family dying for his dreams.

BT i take it you dont live in Oregon..the Portland PD has had equipment like that for some time..and police dressed for riot gear are presant at all protests.(no matter who) **mostly in pioneer square**

I think Randy Weaver's wife payed a terriable price for her husbands supidity. the FBI was looking for blood that day as the field commander changed the rules of engaement at the field level which is un heard of...Secondly you tell me 1 sniper in the Whole world that recommands shooting through glass, wood, or any material at a moving target..and i will show you a moron..that is a showboat..not a realy sniper!

Boomslang

I don't think Randy has both oars in the water by any means. However, a nutbag that reteats into the hills of Idaho with his family is hardly a threat to the world, and sawing off barrels of shotguns is hardly a constitutionally righteous crime. Even if it were, and even if after he refused to turn snitch in reptentance to the crimes, that is hardly cause to stake the lone families place for days, that is hardly a reason to blast the dog that caused the boy to blast at an agent which casued an agent to blast at the boy.........to cause the sniper to drill a hole betweenthe eyes of a woman holding a baby........attack a group of religious cult fanatics......body rotting on the water tower......tank bashing the wall....fire....kids roasting on an open fire......

Wasn't the Weaver incident on the Bush '41 watch, by the way?