Questions for masons

This is one of the main reasons I shy away from Freemasonry. I have complete and utter respect for the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge in all things, esoteric or not. The esoteric aspect of it intrigues me to no end. Over the past couple of years I have asked some questions similar to the OPs, in an attempt to figure out if Freemasonry was for me. I was torn between a lot of things, including the fact that I don't [or didn't] think anything should ever be kept secret, (I recall a considerably lengthy conversation about this which for the most part dissolved my ill feelings towards it.) Additionally, the theatrics of it all, the rituals themselves, are somewhat of an issue. As a Mormon I participated in two rituals, both of which I was very uncomfortable with and both of which were very minimal: baptisms for the dead, (just being baptised over and over and over in proxy for dead people), and a temple dedication ceremony where we all swung white handkerchiefs around our heads and chanted some hosanna thing three times. Rituals and ceremonies ain't my bag of chips.

Lastly, I am an atheist, though I only use that stigma to separate myself from any dogmatic organizations. I'm more of a pantheist than anything, believing that God is in all things, but must call myself an atheist due to the fact that my definition of the word "god" is dissimilar to that of others', and most certainly do not believe in a literal supreme being. I share a lot of similar philosophies with Kabbalah, (from the little that I've read about it), many Gnostic teachings, Buddhism, some of the more ancient pagan religions, and even some of Jesus Christ's teachings; I'm kind of a conglomerate of philosophies. However, this leaves little room for me to put my trust in anything but perhaps Nature, and I doubt that I could swing my beliefs to be completely in line with the requirement that Freemasonry has for belief in a supreme being. Although, MasonicLight's previous post sounded like he and I might share atleast some views on God, so perhaps I should look into it more.

However, in conversations with him and others I've come to the conclusion that if I want to learn the things Freemasonry teaches I'm probably going to have to follow my own path. He and others recommended some books to me a while back, and I have purchased some of them but have yet to read more than one or two of them.

I would guess that you get out of Freemasonry what you put into it. (Perhaps one of the Masons told me that?) I can't imagine everyone who joins for just a ring and maybe as a social network would be able to get the knowledge and wisdom out of it that others would. It bothers me to no end that I don't even have the option of joining based on my lack of belief in a supreme being. I remember saying (or possibly just hearing) that the requirement had to do with blood oaths; that a man with no belief in a supreme being could not swear on anything to keep the Masons secrets, but others have said it has to do with morals. But if that is, indeed, the case, let me pose a question first posed by Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Thomas Law on June 13, 1814:


"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

I'm a moral man without a belief in God! Why can't I be a Mason? (Not necessarily looking for an answer, just feeling like the OP and I have somethings in common with regard to interest in Freemasonry and also if I remember correctly he does not believe in a supreme being either.)


[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by an3rkist

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Have you ever heard or read up on Deism?

Anyways, Masonry is not for all people, we admitt and suggest as such.. you can leave at anytime during a ritual if you get freaked out.. no one has, but I imagine it must of at least once.

The rituals are very theatrical.. nothing that impedes on my religious beliefs, but in our society, void of all ritualistic practices, it would be considered "weird". It cannot be compared to any other institutions rituals though.. Mormonism uses some Masonic practices in their rituals, but we won't get into that, as I have nothing nice to say about them.

All institutions use a ritual of some kind though, which is why two cannot be compared. The Church uses rituals, baptisms are rituals, holly days involve some kind of ritual (opening presents on Christmas is a ritual) ..

Masonic rituals are there as a medium to convey a message .. rather then someone teling you "do this, that, this and don't ever do this or that" it is in a play, one which the candidate is a participent.

It is the play its self which is the secret.. the actual participation anyways. The secrets of Masonry are held in ones self, and no where else.. it cannot be revealed to anyone, because no one can truly understand the self more then yourself.. only you know its impact, only you know its real teachings and only through this experience can you understand the connections within the Brotherhood.

It effects all men differently.

Those of us on ATS you can imagine it had a more significant impact .. for many it does.. and their lives are changed even in the most slightest of ways. For others because they did not listen to the message in their hearts, walk away and feel nothing. Perhaps this is our fault as Masons for not doing more to get people involved, or further explain the rituals.. or perhaps it is our fault for allowing decrepit ritualistic practices like one day classes.. I could not tell you.. I have my own opinions, but I don't speak for Masonry..

As for being Atheist.. there is nothing morally wrong with an atheist.. I thought I was one for a little while, however to be a Mason you must take an oath.. how can a man take an oath unless it is to something larger then himself? Only to ones God can a binding oath be taken.. which is why one must believe in God.

But again, Masonry is not for every one, not everyones cup of tea .. so long as you understand why it is not for you, blind hate as some people portrait only damages your own soul and has no effect on me.

I was introduced to deism in my study of some of the Founding Fathers. However, I see it as somewhat of a cop-out, a convenient way of being an atheist without the unfortunate drawback of not being able to satisfactorily explain how the universe and life itself came into being in the first place.



In my experience with fellow "recovering Mormons", they have told me that they wanted to walk out of some of the Temple rituals, but the peer pressure and embarrassment was enough that they just suffered through it. I'm not suggesting that anyone necessarily wants to in Masonic rituals, or that this is so on purpose, but I can see how people would be scared to leave a ritual in front of their peers. And "freaked out"? What kind of weird rituals do you guys do!? (Rhetorical question.)



As I said, the whole theatrics of it bother me to no end. I'm no actor. Perhaps it's ignorant of me to let something like that stand in the way of a potentially great thing, but...

And anyway, that's obviously not the only thing keeping me from becoming a Mason. As for Mormons, my entire family is Mormon and I was raised as such, but I share more ill feelings toward them than I assume you do. I have an inkling of why a Mason would have nothing good to say about Mormons, but perhaps you have other personal reasons also.



This is a great justification for them, and I applaud the idea. However, for myself, I'm just too weirded out by acting things out. I don't know how professional actors can do it... Does the participant have the option to just watch instead?



What about swearing on your own life? I think that would be just as powerful and meaningful, if not more so. And actually, I believe that I am God, (not JUST me, but everybody is their own God), so...

[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

This statement seems odd, given the next statement:



The definition of esoteric knowledge is "knowledge which is hidden or secret." If you despise secrecy, how can you concurrently love esoteric things? The nature of esoteric philosophy is that it is hidden.



In my studies of philosophy and religion (its what I did in college and graduate school), I can think of no esoteric sect which did not at some point pass on their knowledge through ritual or drama. It is one of the defining characteristics of what makes something esoteric, that it is knowledge that can be read, but is best passed on through other means. From the mystery schools of the ancient world, to modern institutions like the OTO...esoteric knowledge was passed on by ritual and drama.


[edit on 5-3-2008 by pacificwind]

Notice the tense I used in the sentences you quoted me on: past tense. As I mentioned, my feelings towards secrecy have evolved over time; thanks, in no small part, to conversations with Masons. My preferred definition of the word "esoteric" is:



dictionary.reference.com...

I don't think that "esoteric" and "secret" necessarily go hand in hand. For me, the esoteric aspects of Freemasonry have more to do with their knowledge and wisdom which is "understood by" only a few, not necessarily that which is kept hidden by a few. I'd also like to mention that I didn't say I "love" esoteric things, I said they "intrigue" me.

[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

reply to post by an3rkist

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What is it which defines something as being secret? Webster defines secret as "kept from knowledge or view." If only the select few can understand esoteric knowledge, then it is by definition secret, since it is kept from the knowledge of everyone else.

Note: I don't particularly have a problem with secrecy at all. Your statements just seemed inconsistent, and it wasn't clear to me that you were talking in the past tense (in terms of esotericism) - but if you were, then it clears it up.

I’ve got some more questions……

1. Is Skull and Bones apart of Masonry is any way?

2. Is the ritual Alex Jones filmed at bohemian grove Masonry?

3. Is Tony Blair a level 33-degree Mason?

4. Are there any high-ranking military or government leaders – presidents, prime-ministers etc who are Masons?

reply to post by andre18

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I only speak from my experiences as a mason, but I think those can be pretty much universally answered

(1) No. There is no formal or informal relationship between masonry as a institution and the Skull and Bones society.

(2) I am unfamiliar with any ritual at Bohemian Grove beyond the whole "Cremation of care" thing - which is not masonic in any way.

(3) I have no idea, but even if he was, remember, a 33rd degree mason is the same as a 3rd degree mason.

(4) That depends on how you define high ranking. I'm quite sure if you look hard enough, you will find a government official somewhere that is a mason.

reply to post by andre18

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No. They are a college (group) which admits women.



No. That is something made up completely independent by a few eccentrics individuals. Now, whether those individuals where Masons I cannot tell you because I do not know. The Cremation of Care however is in no way Masonic.



No. He is not. In England to hold public office I believe you must openly admit to being in Masonry.. either way, hes not a Mason.



On civilian side no. Not that I have heard anyways..

On the military side I couldn't tell you, I never honestly looked to see if any where Masons..

There are several law makers who are Masons though, in the House and the Senate. Not to many, but there are a few.

Several Governors are Freemasons as well, in fact, the Gov of my state became a Mason (after getting in office) soon after I became a Mason.

As far as I know, no world leaders are currently Masons.

reply to post by andre18

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I recently got out of the Army, and I can tell you that one of the main reasons I originally was very critical of Freemasonry was because every single non-commissioned officer paygrade E-6 and above was a Mason except for one E-7 who I never could verify whether he was or not. (I doubt it though.) One of the Sergeants First Class told me, (when I asked him), that on the application for E-7 it looks good to put under hobbies that you're a Freemason.

Freemasonry is prominent in organizations with rank structures, (possibly only because those organizations are primarily made up of men), such as police forces, firemen, etc. The military was no exception, from my experience. Literally every E-6 and above in my battery, (both batteries I served in), (except, possibly, that one E-7), was a Mason. Now, this could be a fluke, I suppose. But I think it's more likely that it's just that men who live together, eat together, go to war together, end up inviting each other into each other's fraternities. Why it was so that being a Mason helped you advance in rank I can't say for sure.

Go to any town with a military base and visit the pawn shops. They will be packed full of Masonic jewelry. I even bought a Masonic sticker from MILITARY CLOTHING AND SALES! (That's the place we bought our official uniforms from.) So the Masons may argue with me, (though I doubt it), but I would say that Freemasonry is HUGE in the military. (American military at least.) However, I think many of them practiced a "lesser" form of it than "true" Masons. (A huge assumption on my part.) They seemed more like the fraternity-type Masons than the kind who are seeking truth, etc.

Anyway, I guess this doesn't necessarily prove that there are REALLY high-ranking military men who are Masons, but I think it would be a safe assumption. Not that it really matters in my opinion, but there's my input.

[edit on 6/3/08 by an3rkist]

Then in that case does anyone know what it is?


[edit on 6-3-2008 by andre18]

That's "Skull & Bones" "Supposedly"

Its nothing more than a release of the world. From that moment till the closing/raising one is free to be themselves without any fronts or false images. The way we were meant to be with each other. Nothing more.

It is neither masonic nor a part of the minerval. It just is a release of daily care.

Then again, i'm not a mason so.......

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Illahee]

I was responsible for dealing with the jewelry when I worked at a pawn shop, and had many Masonic rings come through there.

The rings never lasted long when they would come out for sale because, we had lots of people that left their numbers for us to call looking to buy them, if we had any!

I never knew about Freemasonry until, I worked there!

i also have some questions. 1. what relevant differences are there between the different rites / sects? 2. being half black and half white, am i really better off choosing prince hall lodges? i ask this because i heard that the lodges were historically segregated or something to that effect. 3. does financial success play a factor in being allowed to join? 4. what do i need to do to give myself the greatest chance to be deemed worthy and ready to become a member.

reply to post by theBLESSINGofVISION

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How the degrees are given, actually, York Rite is Commandaries not Degrees. The charities they are involved in. The structure, the meaning behind the rituals.. I can only be so vague not actually being in the York Rite.



Depends on where your at. If your down South from what I hear your better off in a Prince Hall Lodge. However they are not recognized down there. If your up North it does not matter.. still rare to see a black man in a normal lodge, but not unheard of. In fact, there was a guy in my reunion class who was from China I believe, it really does not matter as much as people think at least up here, most of it is self segregation. In the North, Prince Hall is recognized.



No.



Just ask to join, your already worthy.

]post by andre18[/url]

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reply to post by lost in the midwest

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Perhaps it was a fluke, as I said. It may also have something to do with different MOS's. Perhaps Field Artillery has more Masons in it for some reason. (I'm only assuming you weren't field artillery for the sake of argument.) I guess it was more likely a fluke, though, if you felt you were in the minority. I was astounded when I began finding out how many of the higher-ups were Masons. (I forgot to mention I have no idea about how many officers were Masons, only NCO's.)

A quick note on Military and number of Masons: Part of it depends on where your base is located or where the training for the unit takes place. In portions of Indiana it is becoming more prevelant in to join Masonry because of a few particular active veterans who are making it available to the Guard members, etc. And he suggests membership in a highly active Lodge who is able to quickly and efficiently make them Masons. (Which tends to make more "fraternal" Masons than Masons in search of light, but doesn't necessarily exclude one from the other.) So I can see it easily happening in other units.

Masonic involvement depends greatly on your area and the circumstances surrounding the membership. I've been told the Chief of Police and Chief Fireman are both Shriners here in Indianapolis, but have never seen either at a function so I have no proof of their involvement.

reply to post by lukesaysmoo

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For some reason the majority of Masons I know that are in the Military are actually Prince Hall Masons .. this does not mean they are black, in fact, they are all white or hispanic .. but its just how they where introduced to Masonry in the armed forces - Prince Hall. I have never heard of Masonry giving them special treatment, or better promotions.. however, most created tight nit groups of men and swore oaths to eachother that if one where to parish, the others would put his apron on his body as soon as they could.

Then again, I know a few who really could care less, there friends where Masons, so they are Masons, and never gave it another thought.

But it is not uncommon that "under hobbies" listing Freemason as one will benefit you. When I applied for my job they wanted to know if when I was at college I was in a fraternity, and better yet, an officer. I told them no, I was not, but I was an officer as a Mason.. and that held about 1000X more weight then a college fraternity (no one who hired me was a Mason by the way)