Originally posted by Rockpuck
The majority of Masons on the books don't care about Masonry, about wisdom or any of that.. they don't care about anything except a fancy ring on their finger and the ability to tell people they are Masons.

This is one of the main reasons I shy away from Freemasonry. I have complete and utter respect for the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge in all things, esoteric or not. The esoteric aspect of it intrigues me to no end. Over the past couple of years I have asked some questions similar to the OPs, in an attempt to figure out if Freemasonry was for me. I was torn between a lot of things, including the fact that I don't [or didn't] think anything should ever be kept secret, (I recall a considerably lengthy conversation about this which for the most part dissolved my ill feelings towards it.) Additionally, the theatrics of it all, the rituals themselves, are somewhat of an issue. As a Mormon I participated in two rituals, both of which I was very uncomfortable with and both of which were very minimal: baptisms for the dead, (just being baptised over and over and over in proxy for dead people), and a temple dedication ceremony where we all swung white handkerchiefs around our heads and chanted some hosanna thing three times. Rituals and ceremonies ain't my bag of chips.

Lastly, I am an atheist, though I only use that stigma to separate myself from any dogmatic organizations. I'm more of a pantheist than anything, believing that God is in all things, but must call myself an atheist due to the fact that my definition of the word "god" is dissimilar to that of others', and most certainly do not believe in a literal supreme being. I share a lot of similar philosophies with Kabbalah, (from the little that I've read about it), many Gnostic teachings, Buddhism, some of the more ancient pagan religions, and even some of Jesus Christ's teachings; I'm kind of a conglomerate of philosophies. However, this leaves little room for me to put my trust in anything but perhaps Nature, and I doubt that I could swing my beliefs to be completely in line with the requirement that Freemasonry has for belief in a supreme being. Although, MasonicLight's previous post sounded like he and I might share atleast some views on God, so perhaps I should look into it more.

However, in conversations with him and others I've come to the conclusion that if I want to learn the things Freemasonry teaches I'm probably going to have to follow my own path. He and others recommended some books to me a while back, and I have purchased some of them but have yet to read more than one or two of them.

I would guess that you get out of Freemasonry what you put into it. (Perhaps one of the Masons told me that?) I can't imagine everyone who joins for just a ring and maybe as a social network would be able to get the knowledge and wisdom out of it that others would. It bothers me to no end that I don't even have the option of joining based on my lack of belief in a supreme being. I remember saying (or possibly just hearing) that the requirement had to do with blood oaths; that a man with no belief in a supreme being could not swear on anything to keep the Masons secrets, but others have said it has to do with morals. But if that is, indeed, the case, let me pose a question first posed by Thomas Jefferson, in a letter to Thomas Law on June 13, 1814:


"If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God."

I'm a moral man without a belief in God! Why can't I be a Mason? (Not necessarily looking for an answer, just feeling like the OP and I have somethings in common with regard to interest in Freemasonry and also if I remember correctly he does not believe in a supreme being either.)


[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Have you ever heard or read up on Deism?

I was introduced to deism in my study of some of the Founding Fathers. However, I see it as somewhat of a cop-out, a convenient way of being an atheist without the unfortunate drawback of not being able to satisfactorily explain how the universe and life itself came into being in the first place.

you can leave at anytime during a ritual if you get freaked out.. no one has, but I imagine it must of at least once.

In my experience with fellow "recovering Mormons", they have told me that they wanted to walk out of some of the Temple rituals, but the peer pressure and embarrassment was enough that they just suffered through it. I'm not suggesting that anyone necessarily wants to in Masonic rituals, or that this is so on purpose, but I can see how people would be scared to leave a ritual in front of their peers. And "freaked out"? What kind of weird rituals do you guys do!? (Rhetorical question.)

The rituals are very theatrical.. nothing that impedes on my religious beliefs, but in our society, void of all ritualistic practices, it would be considered "weird". It cannot be compared to any other institutions rituals though.. Mormonism uses some Masonic practices in their rituals, but we won't get into that, as I have nothing nice to say about them.

As I said, the whole theatrics of it bother me to no end. I'm no actor. Perhaps it's ignorant of me to let something like that stand in the way of a potentially great thing, but...

And anyway, that's obviously not the only thing keeping me from becoming a Mason. As for Mormons, my entire family is Mormon and I was raised as such, but I share more ill feelings toward them than I assume you do. I have an inkling of why a Mason would have nothing good to say about Mormons, but perhaps you have other personal reasons also.

Masonic rituals are there as a medium to convey a message .. rather then someone teling you "do this, that, this and don't ever do this or that" it is in a play, one which the candidate is a participent.

This is a great justification for them, and I applaud the idea. However, for myself, I'm just too weirded out by acting things out. I don't know how professional actors can do it... Does the participant have the option to just watch instead?

how can a man take an oath unless it is to something larger then himself? Only to ones God can a binding oath be taken.. which is why one must believe in God.

What about swearing on your own life? I think that would be just as powerful and meaningful, if not more so. And actually, I believe that I am God, (not JUST me, but everybody is their own God), so...

[edit on 5/3/08 by an3rkist]

Originally posted by an3rkist
This is one of the main reasons I shy away from Freemasonry. I have complete and utter respect for the pursuit of wisdom and knowledge in all things, esoteric or not. The esoteric aspect of it intrigues me to no end.

This statement seems odd, given the next statement:

Originally posted by an3rkist
I was torn between a lot of things, including the fact that I don't [or didn't] think anything should ever be kept secret, (I recall a considerably lengthy conversation about this which for the most part dissolved my ill feelings towards it.)

The definition of esoteric knowledge is "knowledge which is hidden or secret." If you despise secrecy, how can you concurrently love esoteric things? The nature of esoteric philosophy is that it is hidden.

Originally posted by an3rkistAdditionally, the theatrics of it all, the rituals themselves, are somewhat of an issue....Rituals and ceremonies ain't my bag of chips.

In my studies of philosophy and religion (its what I did in college and graduate school), I can think of no esoteric sect which did not at some point pass on their knowledge through ritual or drama. It is one of the defining characteristics of what makes something esoteric, that it is knowledge that can be read, but is best passed on through other means. From the mystery schools of the ancient world, to modern institutions like the OTO...esoteric knowledge was passed on by ritual and drama.


[edit on 5-3-2008 by pacificwind]

I’ve got some more questions……

1. Is Skull and Bones apart of Masonry is any way?

2. Is the ritual Alex Jones filmed at bohemian grove Masonry?

3. Is Tony Blair a level 33-degree Mason?

4. Are there any high-ranking military or government leaders – presidents, prime-ministers etc who are Masons?

Cremation of Care however is in no way Masonic.

Then in that case does anyone know what it is?


[edit on 6-3-2008 by andre18]

Originally posted by andre18

Cremation of Care however is in no way Masonic.

Then in that case does anyone know what it is?


[edit on 6-3-2008 by andre18]

That's "Skull & Bones" "Supposedly"

Originally posted by andre18

Cremation of Care however is in no way Masonic.

Then in that case does anyone know what it is?


[edit on 6-3-2008 by andre18]

Its nothing more than a release of the world. From that moment till the closing/raising one is free to be themselves without any fronts or false images. The way we were meant to be with each other. Nothing more.

It is neither masonic nor a part of the minerval. It just is a release of daily care.

Then again, i'm not a mason so.......

[edit on 6-3-2008 by Illahee]

i also have some questions. 1. what relevant differences are there between the different rites / sects? 2. being half black and half white, am i really better off choosing prince hall lodges? i ask this because i heard that the lodges were historically segregated or something to that effect. 3. does financial success play a factor in being allowed to join? 4. what do i need to do to give myself the greatest chance to be deemed worthy and ready to become a member.

]post by andre18[/url]

---

I recently got out of the Army, and I can tell you that one of the main reasons I originally was very critical of Freemasonry was because every single non-commissioned officer paygrade E-6 and above was a Mason except for one E-7

Unless things have changed greatly since I have gotten out of the Army, it is odd to hear of a unit with that high number of Masons. In the 20 years I served we were in the minority. In some units I was hard press to find another mason.

[edit on 7-3-2008 by lost in the midwest]

A quick note on Military and number of Masons: Part of it depends on where your base is located or where the training for the unit takes place. In portions of Indiana it is becoming more prevelant in to join Masonry because of a few particular active veterans who are making it available to the Guard members, etc. And he suggests membership in a highly active Lodge who is able to quickly and efficiently make them Masons. (Which tends to make more "fraternal" Masons than Masons in search of light, but doesn't necessarily exclude one from the other.) So I can see it easily happening in other units.

Masonic involvement depends greatly on your area and the circumstances surrounding the membership. I've been told the Chief of Police and Chief Fireman are both Shriners here in Indianapolis, but have never seen either at a function so I have no proof of their involvement.