religion has been holding back science for a long time and it seems that since the church isnt as powerful as it was in the middle ages it seems they have regressed to brainwashing their children that religion is fact and science no matter how much proof it has compared to religion is false and herresy and your probably giong to say ohbut its in a book and its a theory so it must be taught well you know what a magical unicorn barfing up everything in existance is as plausible as your "god"


dont pray in our schools and we wont think in your church

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
He created us with curiosity and the ability to reason.

Then he apparently demands that we don't use that reason, otherwise we get sent to hell. Nice guy.

Ya know I don't agree with Dave on many things but he IS smart enough to know, if you are going to BE a Christian, it is because you believe what he taught. Regardless of whether we Agree or not, I know from experience, Atheists research that Bible often times more than Christians do and have seen them run circles around other Christians because of it.

It is on this rare occasion I think Dave is on the right tack, at least in this case he is and I thihk he knows a Christian bearing false witness when he sees one just as I do, whether he is a Christian or not.

When it come between an Atheist and a Christian bearing false witness,

Ill stick up for the Atheist

everytime

- Con

[edit on 21-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

If you are referring to me, I am not Christian! Are you having contempt prior to investigation?

Oh I know that michel, I have read your "stuff" on your website too so it wasn't prior to investigation.

All I am saying is you have no stable datum to go by, no standard of truth but that of your opinion and what seems many times, what you make up as you go. If you like to Debate a Christian and an Atheist where we would join forces so to speak, that would be interesting to say the least.

You were a Christian at one time is that correct?

I have seen you use parts of the Bible while cherrypicked I have no idea as to where you are coming from. I know your other writings suggest that all you say is just based on your opinion but you are talking to Atheists here Darlin and take it from me, your best bet is to have proof, scientific testable proof because that is all they believe in.

It can be done but even I rarely get into the spiritual stuff with Atheists and rarely spout scripture. They invariably already know the scripture and they don't believe in God so the subject is Moot.

It is there way or the highway in that regard.

EXAMPLE: you said this to Dave

Most religious I know, are not spiritual. They confuse doctrine and rituals with being spiritual

I think you confuse people who are spiritual using Doctrine and Ritual as people you just judged not spiritual.

It's a good thing they don't need your approval then isn't it.


Then you said, this to Dave

On one hand you say you are spiritual, but then say; that you connect with just what you can see. Doesn't make sense.

If you knew Atheists, it makes PERFECT sense but ONLY if YOU were more spiritual would you understand why that is true.

That doesn't mean you can't use that to persuade them,, or try anyway.


The moment I see someone quoting scripture as a spirtual person from the Bible after exclaiming they are not a Christian, you can bet Ill be on your post along with Dave just from another angle but

as his ally and your opponent

Just letting you know

and why

- Con






[edit on 21-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet


What is your definition of spirituality?

I would have thought you might ask me what I mean about being more spiritual since what you quote uses that distinction and in the context given is much easier to debate where asking me to define spirituality is like my saying, "if only you displayed more physique" and you ask me how I define physicality. I am at odds with wondering what you are really asking.

1) Are you asking me because you don't know what physique means or is.

2) Are you asking me because you needed me to be more specific such as what part of your physique to display more of

3) Are you asking me because you want to test my knowledge on the topic of Physicality indicating it has nothing to do with my suggesting you display more but simply want to argue.

Having said that, know that I will call it into question as a strawman by asking me to define spirituality one of those choices.

I have seen this question given where depending on ones understanding of the word including the "ality" after "spiritual" we know this to mean in the general sense such as Physicality or Mentality.

I have read many essays and definitions and explantions of the word "spirituality". Invariably, they are long winded fluffy wordy warm and fuzzy but vague, ambiguously pathetic and meaningless.

In a nutshell, "Spirituality" is the general capacity you have as a conduit,

between you (conscience) and your creator (God)

- Con





[edit on 22-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

Originally posted by MatrixProphet

Express your opinion!!

Ok

I also do not subscribe to the new age definitions of spiritual.


You subscribe to your own obviously

But I will stand on what I said about what it isn't!

notice the bold letters in the first paragraph of the post you are responding too and they spell the number three. After that I made three choices where I mention the strawman for choosing the one I had anticipated you were setting up. Seems I had you pegged from the start.

Having been part of religion for so many years, I watched and also believed, that doctrine and service work would, or could, be defined as spiritual or spiritual acts. Where religion became the God and religious leaders be they; pastors, rabbis, elders, ministers or gurus, became the conduit. Without their approval and judgment a member could be in a difficult spot. Or so they would like one to believe!

I wouldn't know but if that is your experience I suppose that is why you have formulated such a presumptuous opinion making such sweeping generalizations that people who follow doctrine and / or rituals are confusing the two for spirituality.

I asked one of my former leaders; "When does God forgive, before or after you forgive the sinner?" He said, "We honestly don't know the answer to that." That is a small example.

Again, I have no idea what this has to so with what you said to Dave or me.

I work with many who are attempting to get out of the God Box.

The God Box?

They no longer want to be defined by what religion teaches them about God, and what their teachings do to keep you under their control. And their assumptions as to what is Gods truth, or not.

So they need you for this? I take it you show the "the way" and your way is based on ? Like I asked before,, what standard of truth do you have to substantiate your knowledge of any of this?

You are obviously showing by your animosity that you are not comfortable with my rocking the boat.

You are being presumptuous again. I haven't shown anything but a position I take with you. That position is contrary to yours as I knew it would be.

Because I have read some of your posts I question why you are on ATS?

you are not the first but I will tell you why I am. I am here to oppose you. That's what I do. You and Atheists.

I do not go onto Christian/evangelical sites. But this is a forum to question religion and its teachings whether they be false or true. You are only setting yourself up for self-abuse or the abuse of others. Is this your motive?

I inflict no abuse on myself moreover I have suffered no abuse at the hands of others who oppose me. You are certainly welcome to try.

You would be very wrong in assuming that everyone agrees with you, and that there are not individuals out there that are craving exactly what I am saying. I don't have to change anyone, nor am I looking to! People make their own choices.

I was born at night but it wasnt last night and I sure as hell didn't come down on the last drop of rain. Those who crave what you are saying I believe are out there and I have faith in the tools I am endowed with by my creator to not only handle it and them too.

That includes you.

- Con

[edit on 23-5-2008 by Conspiriology]

I made it through about 12 pages and think my mind is mush.
I'll try to keep the fragments together to make my post.

I think...and oh I may be so wrong that the original spirit of the thread is not who's right or wrong but mutual respect (granted a touch inflammatory in tone if not nature). Not peer respect but human respect. Respect in the sense that I can completely disagree with you but I don't have to insult you because I think (even have evidence or faith [covers both sides]) you are wrong or without any merit. Ignorance (regardless of which side you're on) cannot be ARGUED or insulted away.

IMO religion shouldn't handicap (or try to) science...nor should science actively try to disprove religion. However, people often use each as a weapon to make wrong (on a more personal level than facts) other people.

In the end neither side has ALL the answers of EVERYTHING. Maybe someday all the answers will be in place but I bet we'll (we as in people) will still find something to get our knickers in a twit with each other about.

[edit on 22-5-2008 by mysterychicken]

[edit on 22-5-2008 by mysterychicken]

I'll once again make a comment about this subject no one wants to hear these days, which is the middle road to all the bickering.

People need to quit hanging on to the childish arguement to who's right and who's wrong!

We get caught up in small differences. The bible tells we are not to know gods ways until the end times. Maybe this evolution shows gods ways and the messiah is coming. Maybe it's pure science, but the point is if Jesus returned today he would probably be crucified again because no one would be open to his ideas, if they differed from their own. The new Testament represents judgement of the human race and is not better displayed by my Christian brothers, if that's not irony I don't know what is!!