The Gullibility of Evolutionists

Originally posted by weedwhacker
The term 'Evolutionists' is something I've not seen before...did you coin it? Is it an attempt te elevate 'Creationists' as a term to be respected?

Evolutionist is actually a real word. See: HERE.

We are one species, on one planet, in a suburban Solar system, on the outskirts of a typical Spiral galaxy, one galaxy out of BILLIONS of others...each galaxy containing BILLIONS of stars...but, for some reason, WE, and WE alone, are somehow 'special'? The hubris required to believe this astounds me.

I don't necessarily believe we are the only life in the universe. It would certainly seem within God's power and plan to create other life. I have my own theories on the subject (even with a smidgen of biblical support) but it would only come down to personal speculation.

P.S. Thanks for poising your questions intelligently and with maturity.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Funny how those who refuse to see any opinion other than one that agrees as anything other than ignorant generally tend to have blinders on as well.

That's a pretty large assumption. I think most of us here arguing against your position have seen these same opinions time and time again. And the unfortunate fact is, we've compared your opinions to facts and data, and your opinion is sorely lacking. Perhaps you should provide better facts and data yourself to support your opinion.

It was about self-rightous *beep*s going on and on about how everyone else is ignorant. Especially in the light that the ultimate answer on how we got here is yet to have been found.

Frankly I think it's more self-righteous to accuse those who don't agree with your opinion right off the bat as wearing blinders. If you're ignorant of the facts on a subject, then you're ignorant. It's just that simple.

If you have some proof as to it having been found PLEASE show me and something that has DECISIVELY shown that it was chance or a creator.
u2u me with it.

Trouble is, Evolutionary biology doesn't look for some sort of biological grand unification theory. I'm not sure any of the life or earth sciences do, tell you the truth. Odds are, whatever rocks harbored fossils of the earliest blobs of life have probably been subsumed into the mantle by now, so it'll likely remain a mystery. Thankfully, only the people unconcerned with facts tend to worry overly much about it.

Now, just to make a point, evolution is not based on "chance." It's not a random crapshoot. Evolution is nothing more than a highly likely by-product of the law of natural selection.

That being said I shall now abandon the thread to the jackals.

You'll be back, they always come back.

reply to post by AshleyD


Thank YOU, Ash, for that response.

Hmmm...I am beginning to think you know more than you have been letting on?

It's a big Universe (could be a Multi-verse, for all we know) and it is a puzzlement. Back to my analogy, about Santa...we all know (I hope) that that is a cute and convenient story, passed down through generations, and geared to the minds of children, since it is designed to meet their ability to comprehend, just as we sometimes use the 'stork' to explain new siblings or cousins, until their minds develop to a point that we adults feel it is appropriate to educate them...and let them know the facts.

Huge discussions have ensued, no doubt, about when and how to 'reveal' to children the 'truth'...

I have a point here. Couls one argue that the Human species is the equivalent of a 'child', when compared to any possible other supposed species that may be around?

(The Universe, as we know it, is vast and old. Our Solar System is, while not the new kid on the block, maybe a 'teenage' equivalent??)

Just shooting from my intellectual hip, hope it fosters new debate!

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
I was addressing your assumption (one amongst many) that he is my "new" hero.
I don't care about your past experiences or attempts to teach.
You made an assumption.
It was wrong.
You continued to act as if it was not.

Because it wasn't really meant to be taken that seriously. I don't think you have a shrine in your bedroom to him or anything.

And instead of answering the criticism you turn it into yet another battle about the theories as if whether your right or not justifies your ACTIONS.

I answered the criticism in my first two posts. Then I turned to show why it is not a fair criticism of evolutionary theory.

If we are going to talk about the gullibility of 'evolutionists', comparing the position of evolution with ID creationism is a suitable approach. As these criticisms come from a certain quarter, they are 'theory-laden' shall we say. If you want to say that evolutionists are gullible for taking time to assess evidence, and then discarding rubbish. Then comparing to creationists who just keep circulating the same old is fine. The same arguments that Ash is using have been used for 30 years or more.

Indeed, taking the words of these theologically motivated people without any evidence, and attempting to force these ideas into schools, is gullibility of the highest degree.

I'm not trying to support evolution from an evidential POV. I'm showing that it is unfair to criticise ToE for examining evidence with an open-mind before discarding. Being self-correcting is not a negative trait. That's exactly what Popper would want.

Post 1: Answering Ash's original post

Post 2: Answering Ash's reply, including why some think creationists can show ignorance

Post 3: Pointing out the dishonesty of IDers

Post 4: showing Ash why many see IDers as theologically motivated

Post 5: Popper and why he's cool for science

And from then on, responses to you and your amazing insights.

ABE: listen, if you want to discuss this stuff without having people disagree, go to a theological forum. What you all appear to want is a little circle-j where you can pat each other on the back and go 'Rah! Rah! Rah!'

Cool. Go find somewhere to do it. This forum is open to anyone who wants to deny ignorance. And wawa-wewa, do we ever need it.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by melatonin]

Evolutionists are not gullible it is the opposite. Religious people tend to be stereotypically more gullible because in the end you are just following guidelines that were set when the human race were at their dumbest. Evolutionists use science, common sense and evidence to support what they now know and have found studying the universe in which we live.

Environment and evolution go hand in hand they create each other, you have nature shaping the way a species needs to evolve and then you have us, changing nature (killing it) and possibly changing our evolution path to be robot dependent short, bald muscleless bags of internal organs. Evolution is proven by interracial children, if you have an african mum and a chinese father their genes roll together to create a new subspecies of human. Just like the bats in Australia, to the African bats to the American bats they are all just different subspecies of bats just like the different subspecies of humans but we like to call ourselves different races.

Environment and evolution go hand in hand other wise you Americans wouldn't look like you americans do. You would look and sound like british people because you are,but obviously over the last couple of hundred years EVOLUTION has giving you a more sharper toned voice and a significant height advantage. Same with Australians, they are english as well but environment once again changes the gene structure of our voices to the today's "How ya goin mate". "Where the bloody hell are ya". I am a witness. I am greek/creole and my family has only been in Australia since the 1960's, my pop has a full on french accent but mine is full Aussie.

I know it may be hard for religious people to get out of the tunnel that they live in and stop being so hypocritical because evolution is everywhere, everything is constantly evolving it is what the gene structure does. Aging is an evolving process, the evolution from sperm to rotting matter 6 feet under.

Religion suppresses knowledge which in term has causes the world to be full of ignorance. Religion is the only thing that has not evolved and will continue to be the root cause of the narrow mindedness that plaques us. Change is evolution.

Ash stated she does not believe in 'macro-evolution'. This implies that she does believe in micro-evolution, right?
It's really simple. A creature creates millions of sperm. Each one is slightly different from the others. You have 400 children, they are all different. This is the variable. Some of those children are going to have characteristics that will enable them to operate more effectively in their environments. Those survivors that have naturally beneficial traits will breed, and those traits will be passed on; But with another 400 variatations. This means some of those children will survive even better.
That's micro-evolution in a nutshell. Now, macro-evolution is the exact same thing, but it is over a time period of thousands, if not millions of years. Now how can you accept mico, and not macro??? It's the exact same thing but longer duration. Yes, macro is very theoretical, but we've been studying it for less than 200 years. We really only have 100 years of data, at best.
As for 'evolutionists' being gullible, the scientific process and empiricism means that facts derived from the scientific method have to be validated by other independant sources, otherwise it is not accepted. Even if someone falsifies data to mislead people, eventually the experiment will be scrutinised and proved to be false. The theory of evolution is one such hypothesis that is under constant review, modification, experiment and testing. The theory itself is always evolving, and becomes more and more robust. Unlike creationists, whose sole evolution over the past 2 millenia has been to disguise itself as intelligent design. Intelligent design, and for that matter, creationism, sees to be solely aimed at the gullible. Yes, it made perfect sense back then, and indeed, it made sense when I was a child, but I, and a good section of humanity have grown up. As a scientist I still believe in God, simply because I don't understand how something could have come from nothing. He fixes that probem for me.
My 2c.

Just found this news article on the Australian Herald Sun website.

"Pope Benedict admits evidence for evolution"

www.news.com.au...

reply to post by xion329alpha


xion, I am chuckling a little as I read your post, because, insults aside (even if not intended) you are pretty close to the mark.

You steered away, by mentioning speech patterns...accents...as a result of evolutionary process, because those are really cultural, and occur very rapidly, over the course of jsut a few generations.

I think it would be wrenching to most Americans if they could go back in time and hear George Washington or John Hancock or Benjamin Franklin speak, because THEY would have a 'British' accent! Heck, ole' Ben spoke French! (Guessing many educated men of that era did as well....)

Accents, coloquial changes in language, are not the same as biological evolution. To claim such, kinda throws mud in the water, IMO.

Wow Ash what a great job you did not turning this into an argument. You start a provocative thread that's been done to death (by your own admission), say that it doesn't need to be debated, prattle off a bunch of things to debunk the evolutionists........ but no, you're not looking for a battle.

In the end however, you have your beliefs, and we, who do not believe in creationism have our own. That's fine and perfectly acceptable. It is one of those subjects that is pointless to discuss. Neither on either side will make any headway trying to convince the other party, so in the end, what's the point? It's just conflict for the sake of conflict.

As I said both sides are entitled to their own beliefs.. and it should be left at that. My only strong opinion on the matter is that creationism needs to be kept out of public schools. You can disagree with the evolutionary theory all you want but in the end separation of church and state exists for a reason. I'm sure that it's all good if it's your religion running the government, but if it were someone else's, you'd be as pissed as the rest of us.

reply to post by xion329alpha


That's old news. The pope has been pretty open about being a theistic evolutionist.

reply to post by cruzion


You can assume correctly because I have openly admitted to believing in micro while not believing in macro. And thanks for the quickie science lesson but some of your explanation is lacking.

Ok.
Calmer now........

Ash has stated she somewhat (a little) agrees with evolution minus macroevolution
meaning she believes in changes of an existing speices over time. And has stated that as such though I doubt many has seen beyond her religious convictions to see that.
Evolution covers (I think) changes to a speices over time.
NOT how the speices got there because that is a great big black area we may or may not be able to penetrate. Even if time machines were created and you could go back and see the very start of life happening here on Earth you could still argue a guiding "force". Panspermia Theories not withstanding.
I am not ignorant of science, sorry to inform you.

But as I stated a few times now.
She did not start the thread as an attempt to discredit the theory.
Merely as a comment on how a particular bunch likes to use it as a crudgel to beat everyone else over the head with.

Rather than treat it as what as far as I can see it is a attempt to call a group on their continued bad behavior they treat it as another attempted descreditation of their crudgel.
With continued chanting of the tired old slogan "Religion is ignorance and bad, BAD I tell you!". Which doesn't stand up to falsification no matter how much you try to rationalize it that way I might add.

Otherwords look beyond your damn projections and see what she is TRYING to say.
There is bad behavior to be had, on both sides that is very true, but that is not what this thread was about it was about the bad behavior of one side. A side that while I respect their right to believe what they want. I UTTERLY deplore their continued attempts to claim that science is their tool and their tool alone and everyone else is stupid monkies.



[edit on 2-3-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Originally posted by Osiris1953
Wow Ash what a great job you did not turning this into an argument. You start a provocative thread that's been done to death (by your own admission), say that it doesn't need to be debated, prattle off a bunch of things to debunk the evolutionists........ but no, you're not looking for a battle.

That's it. I'm, like, totally starting a sock puppet account. Anyways, if my interest was in 'debunking' evolution, I would have put more effort into my arguments and not have ignored those who requested even more specific examples. The point of this thread was not to debunk evolution or prove creationism. It was to point out the fact the 'science' isn't as solid as many claim. If you want to get an even hand at how other evidence (proven by secular science nonetheless) conflicts and negates certain aspects of evolution, I will leave the research up to the individual.

As usual, the intent of a 'provocative thread' is lost on the pseudo intellectuals who would rather swallow the status quo before even considering some of the science is perhaps flawed.

Ok, before I hit the sack, I'll leave this for Ash to digest and, hopefully, respond to.

Some guy brings a new group of fossils to a lab. He found them on his farm. A scientist goes there and find where he extracted them. There is evidence of a few more related fossils.

They appear to be a completely undiscovered species of elephant (don't ask me why, heh). Dating puts them between two previously discovered species.

What should she do with them?

The scientist wants to write a paper about the discovery. Should she? What happens now?

Say she writes them up. Other scientists disagree and point out some issues with the finds. She tries her best to show other scientists why she think they are a good find, others ignore her. 5 years later, after much more detailed study, irrefutable evidence that they are a hoax is produced.

The damned farmer and a few of his buddies faked a few bones, but they were good fakes and she was completely taken in by them. She's embarrassed like never before, her career is now essentially crippled.

So, what could have been done better? In this case, for 5 years a paper from one scientist suggested the fossils were legit, others were not so sure, she eventually retracted the article (and left science to take up professional knitting).

So, Ash, help us gullible evolutionists to improve science. Speak manana.

Originally posted by AshleyD
As usual, the intent of a 'provocative thread' is lost on the pseudo intellectuals who would rather swallow the status quo before even considering some of the science is perhaps flawed.

And where have these 'pseudo-intellectuals' suggested that all the science is perfect? You make these claims, ash, but I think you must be reading some other thread on a parallel ATS.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by melatonin]

Originally posted by cruzion
Each one is slightly different from the others. You have 400 children, they are all different. This is the variable. Some of those children are going to have characteristics that will enable them to operate more effectively in their environments.

Because of genetic variable maybe??? They are all different due to genetics. Genetics = evolution = environment

[edit on 2/3/2008 by xion329alpha]

reply to post by AshleyD


Science is constantly expanding, and discovering. That is the nature, if I may be so bold, of human endeavor.

We are presented, every now and then, with geniuses who break through originally hard-held thoughts of science, and bring out new truths.

Copernicus, Galileo, Jonas Salk...Albert Einstein, Stephen Hawking...I have missed about 3000 others, but just a few names that come to mind.

We still have a lot to learn, there is no doubt.

reply to post by melatonin


Mel.
Mayhap your the one that needs to come off your high horse?
Considering the fact she has stated that she believes in evolution to a extent and you continue to praddle on like she has not?

Edited to remove the non cohesive ramblings of a person too tired to engage in any type of real conversation. Also to remove any bad grammar, punctuation, or incomplete thoughts.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Osiris1953]

I just don't see how someone can understand and agree with micro-evolution, and then deny macro-evolution. Does not make sense. It's like saying you believe in micro-economics, but not macro! The micro is just a process of macro.
I also haven't seen any argument that supports the idea that believing evolution makes you gullible.
Now, if someone told me that it was the flying spaghetti monster that made everything out of pasta and imbued it with life, and I just blindly believed it, then I would be gullible. But there's no scientist saying that to me. All they're saying is "here's this data, and these conclusions".

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Mel.
Mayhap your the one that needs to come off your high horse?
Considering the fact she has stated that she believes in evolution to a extent and you continue to praddle on like she has not?

Oh, wraoth...when did I say she didn't 'believe' in evolution? She made some criticisms of how the science is undertaken in evolutionary theory. I sort of asked how we might go about it better. Is that an issue? It was an attempt to move the thread forward in another way. She thinks we do stuff wrong, so how does she think we could do better? I don't see any high-horse in sight.

However, now you mention it, Ash actually plays cute on this. She doesn't 'believe' in evolutionary theory, she plays the creationist shell-game:

You can assume correctly because I have openly admitted to believing in micro while not believing in macro. And thanks for the quickie science lesson but some of your explanation is lacking.

Evolutionary theory is common descent by natural selection. If she doesn't accept the validity of 'macroevolution', then I would assume she thinks that 'kinds' (or whatever) were created de novo.

That's not evolution. That's creationism.

So, now I have said it. But we're not going there are we? This is a 'provocative' thread about the gullible scientists.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by melatonin


My problem lies more within the unmentioned people in your analogy who are skeptical of her research being labeled 'ignorant religionists.' Then once the findings are shown to be a hoax, the excuse boils down to Oops.

reply to post by Osiris1953


No worries. Also, no need to ever apologize to me. I've got some extremely thick skin. Although, some would describe it as a thick skull.

reply to post by cruzion


Because micro has been proven without a doubt. Macro is still up in the air, some of the evidence (if not the majority) is dubious, and there are some pretty good arguments that have been brought forth to question the possibility due to the degeneration of genetic information, as one example.