Reality and Perception.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Well this child has never had the luxarie of learning, just been in this void room since birth.

Deep

So, I still believe that "Akira" could learn more about the brain than many scientists, he just wouldnt be able to communicate.

Think about it, just "Akira" and his brain.

Well, I can account for any cases as such.

Has anyone heard of children born as these? I doubt it, which might spark some sort of Cosmic regulation within humans and thier ability to perceive.

Deep

Think about it, just "Akira" and his brain.

As do alot of other beings, but is his brain as aware as regular humans?. Is his Consciousness self Consciouss?.

Deep

[Edited on 19-2-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep

Think about it, just "Akira" and his brain.

As do alot of other beings, but is his brain as aware as regular humans?. Is his Consciousness self Consciouss?.

Deep

[Edited on 19-2-2004 by ZeroDeep]

I would imagine so, he couldnt have just *appeared* from nowhere, he has to have some words lodged into his subconcious from his physical birth.

Yes helen keller was deaf, dumb and blind she not only had a college level education and astoundingly high iq she also taught others.....there have been experiments similar to what you are discussing only not with infants, but it seems like maybe Skinner or some other behaviorist raised an infant in a box for a while i really dont remember..anyway yes they still perceive the world around them just not in the same way remember that perception is relative and when you get down to it...NO ONE perceives the world the same way

Originally posted by ihatethisplace
the thing that gets me is how do you teach somebody anything who is blind and deaf?

There's a sort of sign language that is done by the touch of the hands.

So we have an individual that has no life experience and no senses to obtain life experience. Sounds like it could be a rock to me. It exists, but is not aware of its existence. I know what you're about to say: "But a rock isn't alive". True, true...so I will say it a different way.

What if a baby was born in a coma that they were in since they were concieved hence no life experience. Now let us go further and say that said baby has no senses because of a birth defect or something. Now I think that many people are arguing that the baby would still have it's mind and would be able to imagin things. So what sort of things do you imagin? Houses, trees, running, flying, sex, eating, thinking. Well, someone without the experience that you and I have had would not be farmiliar with any of these 'things' because they have never experienced them. The baby has never experienced Things; it has no concept of what 'I' and 'Other' is and thus has no concept of duality. Well, if you have listened to my rantings before you would know that I believe that the realization and experience of reality/existence is only possible through the mechanism of duality. Hence, if the baby doesn't know the simplest devision of I and Other, then they can not experience reality/existence, even though the baby may in fact exist in relationship to us.


Get all that!?!

Jonna I understand your viewpoint, but this is sort of a paradox. Im going to reiterate this one more time. I paced back and forth all night long contemplating this situation. This is much more clear yet dilussioned in my own mind. I hope someone could help clear some points up.

Lets call this Boy " ShantiDeva " instead of Akira ( no reason for renaming ).

With the basic premise given earlier, one would understand the conditions of reality to a human. Thier are two types of reality, " Inside/outside ", " Awake/asleep " each is a respected faculty of duality. Then we can further catagorize respected Sub-pars, " Emotional ", " Spiritual ", " Mental " realities. One cannot coexist without the other, one is imminent of the other. We dream our awake experiences, our facial expressions represent the emotions from inside.

All beings are consciouss to a degree, with its faculty rising above others with ones level of " Awareness ". Rene Descartes had once doubted with certainty that he could doubt every material, philosophical matter, but could not doubt that he was doubting. " I think therefore I am "

Shantideva hospitable conditions have impeded all levels of Consciousness, Awareness, Realities. Shantideva can not dream experiences he has no certainity of, He cannot express emotions he has no awareness of. Most Doctrines point to a single utility in the human forum that seperates us from all othe beings, a " soul ".

A soul is God given. If we have taken away the one aspect of this human that we cannot create, Are we Gods? Does Shantideva still have a residual soul in his mere existence?

I hope some can clarify these questions, beleive you me, if this at all sounds close to being crazy.....Welcome to my world of pacing constantly back and forth nights ends thining crazy things like this !

Deep

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by ZeroDeep]

[Edited on 23-2-2004 by ZeroDeep]

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Well this child has never had the luxarie of learning, just been in this void room since birth.

Deep

I remember a story on TV where a woman was blind AND deaf but she learned to talk and many many other things.

But to take your hypothetical scenario, what we see with our senses is the ILLUSION of reality. If one lacks the senses to perceive the illusion, one might develop their 6th sense (as when someone loses a sense it is known that the others get stronger), and might tap into knowledge/understanding that is way beyond the average human. They may see without eyes, hear without ears... in a completely different fashion. Well that's one possibility anyway...

I remember a story on TV where a woman was blind AND deaf but she learned to talk and many many other things.

Deaf as is in, One cannot hear and talk?

Deep

Well folks this kinda reminds me of the movie The Eye... was good movie dubbed from Thai into English Subtitles. Well basically it was about a blind girl who got a cornea transplant who hadn't seen with her eyes since she was like 3 years old. Now she had to relearn everything, because previously everything was based on touch and on hearing, IE: she knew what a stapler was, but couldn't identify it by sound or by sight, but had to incorporate sound and touch to understand what it was... this goes on for just about everything in her life. Being a SciFi movie, she also started to see ghosts, and the problem here was that since she was previously blind, she couldn't discern what were ghosts and what were reallly there. A very good movie in my oppinion, not as scary as it was thought provoking.


It does raise this point, if they never had anything to base previous conceptions of life on, how do they actually base anything? If they have never seen a Telephone, couldn't hear a telephone, and couldn't smell a telephone, how exactly would they incorporate it into their lives? They only have touch and taste, how would it play into their realities?

I think they would have a limited reality, but extremely limited due to the restriction of certain senses... I mean how could they do anything in life without the help of another person, and how could they enjoy anything if they were totally oblivious to some of the most important of the senses in pleasure and pain, Sight and Hearing... I know touch would be the most important, but damn, this is the best thought question I have ever encountered.


Props to all


leave some thoughts

I like your question. I was pondering something similar not to long ago. My question was, if our reality is dependent upon our perception of it (i.e., Schroeder's Cat paradox) then shouldn't a person who is blind and deaf be able to walk through objects that they cannot perceive? If they walk into a room that they have never been in before, and there is a table in their path which they have no way of knowing about, shouldn't they be able to walk through the table since they have no awareness of it's existance?

I am wondering, in regards to the child in your question, does he require food and water to survive? Does he have the need to relieve himself? If either of these issues are something he experiences, then he would have to exist in the physical world. Feelings of hunger, thirst, the need to expel waste and the relief of having done so, would all force him to be aware of his body. Even if he has no concept of what it is or how to interpret those sensations, he would be aware of them.

If those feelings are not an issue, I would have to say that he would not exist as a sentient human. With no internal physical sensations that relay messages to the mind, there would be nothing connecting his consciousness to his physical body, I can't imagine why his spirit would remain, being untethered. Without a spirit, I think his body would just be another inanimate object, like playdoh in the shape of a human. It would not retain any personal awareness.

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Deaf as is in, One cannot hear and talk?
Deep

I think that you would really enjoy the story of Helen Keller. It is really quite amazing. She was born with sight and the ability to hear, but she lost both completely when she was 19 months old. From that time until she was almost 7, she was a wild, primal, uncontrollable child. Her teacher taught her everything, from how the write, to associating words with their physical realities, to how the speak. You can read a brief synopsis of her life at:
www.afb.org...
and her autobiography, The Story of My Life, at:
www.textlibrary.com...

Originally posted by ZeroDeep
Possible, we use only 10 percent of our brain to preceive reality.

True, I believe. But then, I used to believe a lot that now turns out to be a lie Maybe this is a lie that we only use 10% or maybe the lie is that we don't - who to believe any more? - en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ZeroDeep


We all percieve reality through our sensory perceptors per se, taste, smell, touch, sound, sight. Only through these do we aprehend the world, which then in turn is intrepeted by our minds.

Now just say a child were to be born without, deaf, blind, and had his sense of smell gone aswell ( Dont know how. lol ) Is this child fully consciouss of the world around him? Reality is mindstuff or so to say. It manifests itself through our minds, and in humans gives us more of a threshold on reality.

Also, a child as such has never been born has it ?

This may sound like jibberesh, but believe you me, I feel the same way

Deep

My take on this set of hypotheticals to formative consciousness from ingress to life as infant to the resultant adult which would be given complete absence of conventional sensory telemetry, being sight, sound, hearing, tactile's from skin.

If we are to posit, as all life, we have a bio-electric field and we are among magnetic fileds.

The organism having no use of areas of the brain conscious state which conventionally derive concepts of environ and surroundings would develop from the start to make use of the fact we exist among magnetic fields which affect very slightly our bio-electric fields as we move among them, as we have fields, so has everything else.

If all available cognition from the very beginning of said organisms awareness would mean the mind would seek input from whatever is available to make sense of the organisms environs, this is the most basic manner such a humanoid devoid of all external senses would be able to make sense.

Now we all actually feel on a magnetic and bio-electric manner, but as other senses are there and more obvious, most do not use such awareness, only psychics and mystics etc cultivate such awareness on such other levels we are all capable of sensing.

I would also suggest the Pineal would be more active and as from being infant, the mind would attune to those extrasensory perceptions and would likely gain mental formations derived from what thoughts we push at such a person devoid of all conventional external cognition from sensory telemetry, the organism may not itself have self derived telemetry to construct what we perceive as reality, but i suggest the psionic nature of the Human organism would prevail and compensate to a great degree, along with self awareness derived from translations in bio-electric and electromagnetic/magnetic fluctuations and variances in said organisms navigation's.

I suggest that as long as the brain has developed along the same genetic template as most Humans, no neurological dysfunction due to genetic defect.

The person would be very telepathic and would likely formulate language even, most likelythough, a more symbolic transference of thoughts though as images from others would precede during formative development in infancy upwards from infant as the mind seeks to know and probes around itself and forming cognitive construction of environment overlayed to translated construct on bio-electric and magentic perceptual translations in and of mind, as too such an individual would likely be eminantly more telempathic and feel emotional states over perceptions of what others feel from our ranges of guestures, facial and body langauge cues etc.

We emanate and project our upper and frontal thoughts like salad colanders though unless aware and train not to do such, so such a persons mind would evolve to make use of that ability within us all to pick up those stray transmissions and translate them but we tune out because of noise from other sensory telemetries unless we culture the abilities.

It's tempting to consider some perceptions would be similar to those experienced by us if in sensory deprivation chamber, but we are talking about a very different wiring of the neurosynaptic pathways from the start of consciousness of said hypothetical person, i suggest many psionic elements would be present to evolve such a person and would potentate way above any common Human organism, as they would predominate completely differently to how we perceive in all 6-7 senses etc.

But i do think a consciousness would evolve and be capable of navigating our world albeit very differently, as too able to construct reality from what we emanate as frontal thought patterning.

Will give this more thought, some useful realisations about ourselves can be found from exploring this hypothesis, methinx

Very interesting question!

Peace.


[edit on 19-2-2010 by DeltaPan]

Various circadian, rhythms/patterns would remain set as from progenitor for much longer then we and i suggest as the influences of individuality take over synchronism to progenitors circadian patterns, would then take cues from levels of external activity providing the alternate reality construct, activity translated provokes conscious waking state, lower levels of perceived -bio-electric/magnetic variations from movements lowering brain activity in conscious mechanism and so prompting sleep periods into sub mind/brain process/REM patterning, even the planetary/Solar/lunar cycles could be translated in a very different, more acute, manner with the noise of our conventional senses absent.

Again, such consciousness would be similar to our meditative states etc, but as from the very inception of consciousness as infant, would be evolved so entirely different.


One wonders what dream states would be from such a person.

Intriguing, indeed.


Peace.



[edit on 19-2-2010 by DeltaPan]