Will stealth works in a crowd airspace

Imagine that both China and US have a big air battle over the Taiwan, China will floods the air with hundred of fighters and anything that can carry ECM and Radar jammers, rendering any and all radar useless anyway, so stealth have not point and BVR fighting became impossible, how will the F-22 fares against SUs and J-10 etc that outnumbers them 5 to 1 in dog fights
any ideas

Hard to say.

(IMO) The key to the F-22 is removing its offboard sensors, forcing it to find its own prey.

Of course, destroying AWACs is not easy, neither is jamming one.


I don't know if the Chinese possess or are working on anything akin to the Novator KS-172, that would provide them the reach to maybe take out or at least drive away the AWACs support.


Even then, things are not easy as I doubt current Chinese RWR technology is particularly strong against LPI radar, although that will probably change in the future I would imagine.

Well im fairly sure that if there are loads of plane all heavily jamming that there will be major interference no matter what radar you use.

reply to post by tomcat ha

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The american navy can put several hundred fighters into the air at short notice, and you think that in that situation a stealth bomber will be used?

What you're considering is comparable to taking a molotov cocktail to a gun-battle with automatic weapons - a stealth bomber would be used for distraction, and nothing more.

reply to post by tomcat ha

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The AWACS radar is "steerable" where they can concentrate the radar into a small area and burn through jamming with sheer power. Even with a whole lot of planes jamming, the AWACS has enough power to burn through it.

Any conflict against China is going to mean ships too, which means Aegis. They can steer their radars and focus so much raw power down a thin beam that it can literally burn out electronics.

[edit on 3/2/2008 by Zaphod58]

excluding radar, the F-22 will do alright because it also has a fairly significant level of visual stealth -its shape and more importantly its coloring, are all designed to minimize the ability for the enemy to see it. still 5 to 1 odds are never very good no matter what... just some thoughts...

raptor1

Considering the previous results from when a Raptor goes up against 5 4th gen aircraft, I wouldn't say its odds are too bad.

The F-22 has never engaged anything in a real combat situation, until then I wouldn't want to count my chickens

I think it's a great plane and has major advantages - but enough to overcome the numerical odds in a confrontation close to China?
I have my doubts...

All fairly irrelevant anyway, as China is unlikely to attack Taiwan unless they declare independence, and the US isn't going to rush to war to defend Taiwan in such an instance - the US being opposed to Taiwanese independence itself.

There's also infrared and HARM missiles that could be used in that situation.

Ok your gonna have to post the actual situation you played out in your head. I think the F22 would fair very well against a squadrons of China's planes as there all cheap knock offs of the real things. If one or two awacs were included in the battle for China, then stealth would be out of the question yet the raptors wouldn't really use it. They would use tactics that made the enemy squirm and hit each other. Yet this situation is under there being no problems with the F22. Good post made me think quite abit. You'll notice due to the brand new radiation in the atmosphere. Very dangerous when i think

Deny Ignorance

Semoro

The F-22 has partaken in multiple exercises which simulate actual conflict to the best of the US Armed Forces ability, and then some. In "Colonial Flag" for example the Raptor was subjected to the worse case scenario; double digit SAM's, latest 4th Gen fighters, expert command OPFOR pilots, no limit on tactics, and virtually an unlimited number of "regenerations". The Red Force was allowed to regenerate multiple times after they had already been "killed" forcing Raptors to sometimes run out of missiles and just remain in the fight as observes and controllers. The Red Force tried every tactic they could to defeat the Raptor lead Blue Force, even trying to overwhelm it with sheer numbers curtsey of "regenerations". At the end of the exercise the Blue Force scored one of the most lopsided victories ever.

The F-22 Raptor kill ratio was 244 to 2 and the total Blue Force kill ratio was 36 to 1. One Raptor was lost after a Red Force pilot "regenerated" in his vicinity after the Raptor has already killed it. The second Raptor was lost after it entered a "dog fight" with three F-16's. After having "killed" two of the F-16's the last one and the Raptor each scored a mutual kill on each other. It is important to note the Vipers were simulating JHMCS/HOBS while the F-22 was not.

And in Northern Edge the F-22 faced AESA equipped Super Hornets and USN AEGIS ships (a naval combination which no one but the US posses), and still dominated.

Point is the F-22 is more than just hype, it's not going to fall out of the sky when it first enters a combat engagement. The F-15 did not have the same performance when it went thought the same exercises yet it has never been defeated in aerial combat in more than 30 years of operation. I expect the Raptor to live up to it's reputation should it ever go into actual combat.



What numerical odds? China does not have any meanigful numerical advantage and it definitely does not have a quality advantage.

Three USN flat tops can put up close to 200 combat aircraft, the Taiwanese Air Force would provide another couple of hundred, there will be 58 Raptors stationed within the immediate vicinity of the Pacific Rim, let alone the other 80 on expeditionary wings at Holloman and Langley. Then you factor in the US wings in Korea and Japan and the forces that would be flown in at Guam and Okinawa. And I'm leaving the Japanese air force out of this. At the end of the day you're looking at 500+ allied high quality fighters in the immediate vicinity with greater force multipliers (AWACS, EW, ELINT, Tankers etc…) Not to mention one of the best SAM systems in the world, an AEGIS ship equipped with SM-2ER interceptors.

The Raptor does not yet have two way data link capability (it will get it this year) and it has still been able to act as a "mini-AWACS" with just voice commands to other friendly aircraft due to the immense situational awareness they can gather. Raptors have been able to increase the effectiveness of legacy fighters just by staying in the fight. So you have to consider all of those factors…

In the end even if China manages to magically launch every single military aircraft it posses at once, after it has instantly transported and housed them at forward bases near Taiwan, and kept them airborne with a virtually non existent tanker force and inferior logistical capability, supported them with an inferior force multiplier force and backed them with short reaching costal SAM's, it would still lose such a conflict.

Just one point about Chinese SAM's, they would have to be placed near the Chinese coast making them highly vulnerable and predictable. Unless they are not used and moved around they would be easily and quickly destroyed. I wont even mention VLO, EW, SEAD/DEAD etc... capabilty. Even if we did not have stealth or any of the above mentioned, conventional aircraft could still fight above and near Taiwan without too much worry about mainland based SAM's. While China's best SAM's may have the theoretical radar and missile (max) range to cover Taiwan their "kill zone" would be several times smaller. At extended ranges "fast jets" could easily remove themselves from the missiles reach due to the distance and time involved.

It's an excellent and advanced aircraft, but we ought not to be blinded by pride, which seems to be an endemic problem with my fellow Americans on here

And as I said, the point is moot anyway - the F-22 is highly unlikely to ever engage the PLAF in combat. If things get to that point, the performance of the F-22 will be the least of our worries.

[edit on 3/3/08 by xmotex]

I believe the raptor can carriesy only 2 infrared missiles, so its down to guns after 2 shots and against 3 or more enemies

But its still not real combat. You need to bare that in mind from time to time.



Neither you, me or the USAF can know the unknown or predict the unpredictable. There could be combinations of tactics and/or systems that render the F-22 completely useless for all we know, and there might not.

Either way, it is stupid to assume because something works in drills it will work in wars.

It can carry 2 AIM-9s in the ventral bays, but there was talk of 2 AIM-9X in each bay, bringing that total to 4.


It can carry more sidewinders on pylons, but you lose some of your RCS reduction with that.

does the raptor have built in infrared sensors?
the Sukhois have them i believe, could be an advantage in a night fight.

Did you mean to say "knife fight"? Because I don't know what "night fight" you're referring too.



Of course not, I don't think anyone has illusions that this is actual combat. You train how you fight and you fight how you train, and it has been shown to be an effective policy.



I don't think it's "stupid", not everything will probablly go to plan but you can prepare for likely scenarios to have a basis for planning etc…

One thing about exercises involving the F22 and F15 is that the F15 has flight restrictions and I'm talking about from before the recent problems, of course I'm sure the F22 would still come out on top just the margin might be different.

In these exercise does anyone know If they simulator MAW since there aren't any missiles and if so how? Also rear-facing radar which the russians use. Since if your up against stealth aircraft you first chance as "seeing" them may well be when they open there weapons bay to fire a missile, they usually try this from behind.

Of course exercise do come out different from the real thing since in an exercise your fighting what equipment you have and not what the enemy has and you don't actually train to fight your equipment either. You just have to assume it won't come out to differently.

I think it will be more likely for a F22 to be lost to a SAM than air to air.

I'm not sure if Nellis birds had any restrictions placed on them in terms of limited speed and G's but even if they did it would not matter, the margin would still be the same. The F-22 has also faced F-16's and Super Hornets and come away without any problems.



Maybe Willard can answer this one, I'll ask around. With AESA LPI, MAW would only be useful when the missile goes active so I don't thinkg it would not be a game winner since by that time you better be pulling the O ring.



Basically irrelevant.



Even if your radar cone happens to be in the particular sector where the F-22 is operating you would not be able to track it when it open its weapons bays to fire. At best you might notice something and work your way into figuring out what it was. The bays are designed to be open for only a fraction of a second, not enough time to really detect or track anything, and that’s with direct main radar coverage. Much less with a limited rear facing radar system.



See Constant Peg, also, Red Force pilots try to simulate avionics, maneuvering, weapons and tactics of likely enemies.

We had one of the USAF Agressor squadrons come through our base in the 1980s. At the time the big threat was the Soviet Union. They were flying F-16s, that were painted exactly like Soviet aircraft. Red star, big red number, their names were written on them in cyrillic, they ate, slept, thought, occasionally talked, Soviet. And they flew exactly how Soviets would fly. They even had ground controllers that would travel with them to handle their intercepts.

And more often than not at the begining of the exercise, they were handing their opponents their heads every flight. It wouldn't be until the last few days that the tide would turn, as their opponents would figure out how to fight them. And sometimes even then the best they could do was a draw.