Round 2. TLomon v Argos: Statehood for NYC

A topic change has been granted under the fighters bill of rights, on the grounds that pursuing the original topic would conflict with certain binding obligations to which one of the fighters is subject.

The topic for this debate is "New York City will eventually become an American state in its own right".

TLomon will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Argos will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.


There are no limits on the length of posts, but you may only use 1 post per turn.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations


Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each invidual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.
Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.
When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceeded by a direct answer.

A new time limit policy is in effect
Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extention of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extention begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extention request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.


Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

[edit on 4-3-2008 by The Vagabond]

This debate may now resume. The deadline for the opening post will be 24 hours from the date stamp on this post.

Hello, my name is Turlo Lomon, aka TLomon, and I will be arguing the pro side of "New York City will eventually become an American state in its own right".

The idea that New York City should become its own state has been around for over one hundred years. On January 6, 1861, Mayor Fernando Wood proposed this idea to the common council in a written declaration. So why talk about it today? Because the idea has never died, and still has merit in its logic.

First, I will show a need for the act of succession. Without a need, there is no further reason to pursue this argument. The mis-management of funds in areas unrelated to the management of New York City has caused financial hardship on the city itself, forcing it to cut programs, including school aid and basic aid to local governments. Decisions are made about what to do with the cities tax dollars without the input of the people, or their voted representatives. The money isn't even being used by the city itself. Taxation without representation. If I remember my history correctly, a country was founded after having a similar problem.

Another issue is population. New York City has more population then the states of Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, North Dakota, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Vermont, and Wyoming... all put together. Now imagine this large population not having the right to have voted representatives in Congress and the Senate that represent ethnic minorities when compared to anywhere else in American culture.

New York City has had its troubles in the past and present when dealing with the federal and state governments. However, older sources explain best what has happened.

"A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong, gives it a superficial appearance of being right and raises at first a formidable outcry in defense of custom. But the tumult soon subsides. Time makes more converts than reason." - Common Sense, 1776.

The difference now is people are more politically aware. Every year, the movement for statehood has become larger and larger, as the discrepancies between what individuals pay, and what their community receives, grow larger and larger.

The examples are endless. Home Land Security funds are distributed on a square mile basis, but paying these funds are taxes (aka population). As a result, Grand Forks North Dakota has more biochemical suits then police officers to wear them, yet New York City has one hazardous material unit for the whole city. Something is wrong with these numbers. Schools in Albany, New York (the same state!) receive $900 more per student then NYC. The STAR Program increases this discrepancy by another $343! The cell phone surcharge NYC residents pay is used by the State illegally to pay for the State Trooper System (who don't patrol NYC) instead of enhancing the e911 System, which is required by law. Amazing how tax dollars don't end up where the people paying them reside.

With regards to New York City succeeding into its own state, it is not a question of if, but rather when.

Thank you for reading my opening argument. I look forward to my esteemed opponent’s response.

Per The Vegabond's post, I am continuing this thread on the basis of my opponent missing his deadline.

In 2007, New York City received the highest property tax increase in its city's history. Soon afterwards, Governor Pataki issued the latest budget proposal. Reviewing the data, it is apparent that the issues revolving around dispersal of funds is continuing to spur on the largest financial crisis the city has ever faced. Council Member Vallone cited several examples of discrepencies in a press release. I've consolidated the numbers for a summary.

1. Upstate students receive $1,219 more then New York City students in school aid and tax relief, in addition to $355.6 million for upstate bailout programs.
2. Repealing of taxes and associated agreements costing New York City $2.114 billion a year.
3. Medicaid costs totalling $3.1 billion a year.
4. Reallocating revenue to upstate New York costing $1.006 billion a year.
5. Misallocation of funds totalling $160 million a year.

Residents vote for certain taxes specifically to benefit their community. These funds are then reallocated to help other communities. Their votes are being overruled by the Govern and State Council to benefit people not contributing as much to the system. How does this happen? Well, the state of New York has 18 million in population with New York City having only 8.25 million. They simply can't outvote the system with less then half the vote. As such, the people paying the most amount of taxes has the least say.

No Taxation Without Representation!
Reverend Jonathan Mayhew, Boston, 1750

Taxation without representation is tyranny.
James Otis

A country was formed around these beliefs. However, in this case, the problem isn't a country, but rather a state. What can be done about this? Although the people of New York City have a vote, it is discounted by the state because any lawmaker of another community who votes for New York City on a financial issue is voting against their own community. Like it or not, politics is a profession, and these people want to keep their jobs. The end result: New York City gets screwed.

To make the future even more bleak, Mayor Michael Bloombergs of Albany, New York, requested state lawmakers to give Albany its fair share of tax revenue, requesting even more to be reallocated from New York City to the rest of the state.

In response, Council Member Vallone revived the state secession bid in January 2008.

Should we raise taxes some more? Should we cut services some more? Or should we consider seriously going out on our own?
Council Member Vallone, as quoted by New York Sun, January 30th, 2008

The chairman of the Covernmental Operations Committee, Council Member Felder, stated that a hearing will be scheduled later this year to hear Council Member Vallone's bill.

This may be happening sooner then you think.

At this time I have no questions for my opponent, as I am not sure what their stance on this issue is. I look forward to seeing his response.

Argos is disqualified. TLomon will advance.