Buddhism and Karma

I have been thinking about Karma and it doesn't make sense.

Karma would mean that there has to be a Supreme Judge. Nature is indifferent to behavior. A person who feeds the homeless and is a faithful wife can still get killed by a nutjob.

So in order for Karma to occur there has to be a Suprem Judge that operates outside of the natural order that makes these judgements on behavior.

reply to post by polomontana


If you're thinking about it in the context that most people do, as some sort of banking system. It doesn't work like that. You don't put in good karma to eventually withdraw it or to make up for your own discretions. Good karma is direct and is thought to ultimately dictate the course of your life. For example. If you're a good person, and you're consistently doing good things, you'll probably live a noble life. If you're a bad person, constantly doing bad things, that will also regulate your life in a negative way. If you're off and on as most of us are, we will have varied occurrences with positivity and negativity. Also, karma isn't an "amount" and is not judged by anyone, but rather directs the quality of your life and the way you live it.

Hmm, Good thread. I hope it doesn't get pushed into belowtopsecret or abovereligion.

So in order for Karma to occur there has to be a Suprem Judge that operates outside of the natural order that makes these judgements on behavior.

Well, no. Karma would be a natural process, just like the law of equal and opposite reactions. But I suppose if we had to ask, 'who designed this natural law' we might say 'God'. After all, even a natural law is decided by SOME force.

People assume that because the idea of God is a man floating in the clouds, judging us, that life is about our judgement etc. Not really.... it's about free will. And Karma is just a word for natural consequence of free will.

Now, we were told by people like Christ and Buddha that we have to stop perverting our free will. We make decisions in this physical life that are detrimental to our eternal souls... this is Karma. All religions teach a system of Karma.

If you think about it, in the metaphysical sense, there has to be a Karma. Karma is a natural law. Without it, life would be an eternally blank canvas with no possibility of creation OR destruction.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by NewWorldOver]

Right. Karma, to simplify it down to its bare bones, is "cause and effect." You step off a cliff? Your karma is you fall. Of course karma goes further than purely physical cause and effect, and considers spiritual cause and effect, but there is no judge handing down "bad karma" sentences to someone. You yell at a guy who is 6'4" and weighs 275 and has "Go Ahead" tattooed on his forehead? Your karma just might include having the floor wiped with your face. It is really common sense, except for the parts that deal with the soul. Those would be common sense, if you had the same ideas about the soul that people who were brought up with the idea of karma do, but in our society where Christianity has flavored even non- Christian thought, those common sense principles might not be so straight forward to you right off the bat.

As an example, of spiritual karma, I will use your own scenario. Feeding the poor is "good karma" because underlying that is an assumption that you and the poor you are feeding are not two separate things. You are helping yourself, feeding yourself, (essentially) and clearly helping yourself is good for you. If you kill people and commit violent acts, with this same understanding of Oneness, you are harming yourself. Clearly this can NOT be good for you.

Jesus also tried to point this out, by asking you to "love thy neighbor as thyself" and "do unto others as you would have them do unto you." This of course, has not really played out well. But he tried.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

OP,

Good thread and interesting answers from everybody.

Fortunately Nature is not indifferent to behavior. We, as a living organism, are not indifferent to behavior. There are causes (like eating healthy) that nourish and support you and causes (like ingesting a poison) that will be detrimental to you.

I'd like to add that in Buddhism karmic events are not limited to only one lifetime. The belief in reincarnation is a central point. The loving, giving wife could be killed because she has to experience the pain she/he caused (maybe millennia ago), when she murdered the present time killer.

The concept of Karma can stretch logic to its limits and ultimately it is a mystic law. I'm a follower of Nichiren Daishonin Buddhism. We chant a mantra that beautifully describes that mystic law:

Nam Myoho Renge Kyo

I hope I was able to shed some light onto Karma?

Originally posted by crestone


I'd like to add that in Buddhism karmic events are not limited to only one lifetime. The belief in reincarnation is a central point. The loving, giving wife could be killed because she has to experience the pain she/he caused (maybe millennia ago), when she murdered the present time killer.

I wanted to bring that up as well. It would seem that the Karma you are building now will affect you next life more than your current one. If you are a serial killer in this life, you would be able to live out a rather full life and ruin many others in the process, until you get caught. You would pay for all of your bad Karma in the next life.

Originally posted by crestone


I'd like to add that in Buddhism karmic events are not limited to only one lifetime. The belief in reincarnation is a central point. The loving, giving wife could be killed because she has to experience the pain she/he caused (maybe millennia ago), when she murdered the present time killer.

Originally posted by Karlhungis
I wanted to bring that up as well. It would seem that the Karma you are building now will affect you next life more than your current one. If you are a serial killer in this life, you would be able to live out a rather full life and ruin many others in the process, until you get caught. You would pay for all of your bad Karma in the next life.

Yes, BUT. Lol. The circumstances you may be facing in this life, according to Buddhist philosophy, could very well stem from an action in a PAST life. This is very true. However, it is NOT necessarily the case that your actions in this life will require "payment" in another life. You can "burn that Karma" while alive in this life. It COULD require consequnces in the next life if you do nothing to undo that "karma" now, but it doesnt HAVE to. Buddhist philosophy says no matter what "bad Karma" you create in this life, that while you are alive you have the opportunity to transcend that Karma through Awakening, or realizing Oneness. Some people try to undo their negative actions with positive ones, tit for tat, but the ultimate "escape hatch" from the cycle of Karma is Awakening. And no matter what you have done, as long as you are alive, it is a possibility in this life.

To me - Karma is simply the type of energy you emit. If you constantly are trying to produce positive energy and you try and do the right thing then that is good Karma . If you are constantly negative then that is bad Karma.

The energy that you carry around with you is not mediated from a devine intervener, rather it is a fate that you create for yourself.

Now, does this mean that bad things don't happen to good people? Of course not. However I do believe that we are rewarded constantly for good karma, as I feel that good karma is a multiplier of good energy around you. This reward does not come from a God so o speak. It comes from the inner peace within us all. It is that harmony that we all seek, and positive energy is a major ingredient!

Great topic!

Polomontana,

You asked in your original post how someone can be good and still have bad things happen to them. Understanding of Karma will only partially answer your question. From the title of your OP I assume that your are trying to understand Karma from a Buddhist perspective so I will approach it as such.

Aside from the teaching of Karma, the Buddha very clearly taught that suffering is unavoidable. Everyone will suffer birth, illness, and death regardless of how "good or bad" their karma. The relality of life is that things happen that we define as bad. For example a monk here in the UK was tragically killed in a freak accident with a lawnmower last year. Bad things happen to people who do not deserve it.

Karma can be examined and understood in a number of ways. The word Karma is often misunderstood and mis-used. Karma simply means "action". The word Karma in english has gathered a mist of meaning that leads to its misuse. For example someone may say its "Bad Karma" to do something - Or a person may suggest that another is suffering because of their bad karma.

"Karma" is the Law of Cause and Effect - so to understand it fully you must look at the actions or causes as well as their respective effects. Everything that we do in our lives has an effect on something - For that matter everything that happens in the Universe has an effect on something (Newtons Third Law of Motion "every action has an equal and opposite reaction"). Try to think of something - anything - any action that you can do that will have no effect on anything - its very difficult - I think probably impossible to not have an effect on anything.

Understanding Karma is to understand that we leave a wake of effects with everything that we do. Therefore care should be taken in all acts so that we do not create big big waves of turbulence in our lives and the lives of others.

There is no judge in the karma that occurs in our daily life. The law of cause and effect manifest itself with immediate effects and also with effects that take a long long time to appear - so long that we, as human beings wont even notice them.

In some traditional schools of Buddhism there is a god called Yama who presides over Hell (yes Buddhism teaches about Hell - many hells infact) and judges the dead based on their deeds. This could be construed as a manifestation of Karma but it is not the same as the Law of Karma.

I hope that this helps. This can be a very complicated subject which leads in many directions and can have many threads to it.

Shoken

reply to post by Shoken


Nice work dad
Don't worry I won't tell mum you've been doing this at work.

Originally posted by Shoken
Polomontana,

Aside from the teaching of Karma, the Buddha very clearly taught that suffering is unavoidable. Everyone will suffer birth, illness, and death regardless of how "good or bad" their karma. The relality of life is that things happen that we define as bad. For example a monk here in the UK was tragically killed in a freak accident with a lawnmower last year. Bad things happen to people who do not deserve it.

The four noble truths;

1. Life means suffering.

2. The origin of suffering is attachment.

3. The cessation of suffering is attainable.

4. The path to the cessation of suffering.

Although suffering is a part of "life" the Buddha does hold forth that suffering can be transcended.

It appears to me that "life is suffering" not because BEING itself is suffering, but because inherent in the statement of "life" there is an implication of "death." Duality is there. Duality is judgment, or the splitting of "What IS" into "this or that" "black and white," "life and death," "good and evil," etc.
As long as you hold an idea of what good is, and good is not "All that is" bad also exists. As long as you are attached to an idea of what good is, or life is, or any dual concept, the "opposite" or "lack of" of that concept you are attached to will bring suffering.

One CAN "BE" in the world without suffering. By not splitting that "Being" into two. By not judging what IS as bad. Including ones own transition from what we call "life" dualistically to that which we label "death." Seeing beyond apparent division to the "Oneness" REAL-izing that, not just thinking about it with the mind, as most of us do, is the way out of suffering. What IS does not change, but your reaction to it does, you create suffering, it is not inherent, and you can end it. Your circumstances do not make you suffer, your mind and its reactions to "what is" creates suffering.

Good post, BTW.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander



AMEN Brother