1st law of thermodynamics and life after death

The 1st law of thermodynamics shows that life after death occurs.

When you die, your material body dies but your energy lives on. Energy can't be destroyed.

It's like the Bible says, your body is buried but the spirit travels upwards.

The question then becomes, does your energy contain a record of your actions and feelings.

The answer is yes because if your sad, happy or depressed these are all energy states. So a psychic can sense energy from a deceased individual that's sad or angry.

Science proves life after death with the 1st law.

There's probably a dozen threads on this. And the obvious answer is that energy isn't the only issue, there si also the physical aprt and the fact that your energy is in a specific "configuration" when you are alive. The energy that makes up your mind probably can't maintain cohesion after death. So the First law of thermodynamics doesn't prove anything regarding life after death.

So energy forgets? That doesn't make sense.

When you die, your energy contains these states, they don't just disappear or vanish.

This is why in reincarnation, your energy can enter another body and they still can feel some of your thoughts and feelings.

These "configurations" are measured states. They don't just go "poof" and vanish when you die.

When the Observer in the Schrodinger's cat thought experiment see's a live cat when he opens the box, then that is a measured energy state. This energy state exists even after the material body dies.

So your energy survives material death and your measured energy states as well.

Your energy's "state", as far as your mind is concerned, depends on actual physical locations and interactions. And chemicals, chemicals play a large part in your brain's function. These factors are no longer present when you're dead.

There is also the fact that your brain can be functioning perfectly fine and you will not be aware- when you sleep. Even if your "energy" somehow kept your mind intact, why would you just assume that you'd be aware? It's equally as plausible that you'd be unaware, eternally sleeping. Or, without a brain to program new memories into, you would forever only be experiencing the moment, with no memory of the past.

[edit on 2-29-2008 by Esoterica]

Your post proves my point.

Your energy is not confined to your physical body once the decohered vessel dies.

The measured energy state exists independent of the material body because energy can't be destroyed.

Now when you die it's like the Bible says, the material body can't think. So when you die your energy is the sum of your life and past life experiences. You are no longer the individual but the collective. You are not ordering a pizza from Pizza Hut as the individual.

Your measured energy states can't die. If you love your wife then that love survives death. That measured energy state can't die.

reply to post by polomontana


I just wonder if chemicals are relevant. Where is memory stored for example? Is it contained in cells? How is it contained? Is it in the organelles? So the thought arises that memory has a non physical source and perhaps other phenomena associated with higher order thinking are in anther dimension where what we call soul exists. IMHO Physics is trying to find evidence of these dimensions although theoretically they are possible.

Could you please define what you even mean by your "energy"? Chemical energy? Electrical energy? Kinetic energy? Thermal energy? Because right now it sounds like you're just making this up as you go along, using the word "energy" in place of "soul."

Esoteric,

I will answer your question if you first concede my point. Measured energy states can't die, therefore life after death occurs according to the first law of thermodynamics.

So you'll answer my question about what you even mean by energy if I concede your point about energy? I'm asking you what sort of "energy" you're equating to the mind and life and how that constitues an afterlife in the first place, why in the world would I concede that you're right without first understanding what you're even saying?

Originally posted by polomontana
The 1st law of thermodynamics shows that life after death occurs.

Wrong.

Originally posted by polomontana
When you die, your material body dies but your energy lives on.

No proof.

Originally posted by polomontana
Energy can't be destroyed.

Correct.

Originally posted by polomontana
It's like the Bible says, your body is buried but the spirit travels upwards.

No proof presented.

Originally posted by polomontana
The question then becomes, does your energy contain a record of your actions and feelings.

No, it's whether or not you have energy that exists after death. Do you even know what energy is?

Originally posted by polomontana
The answer is yes because if your sad, happy or depressed these are all energy states.

Wrong. No evidence of that.

Originally posted by polomontana
So a psychic can sense energy from a deceased individual that's sad or angry.

Wrong. No evidence.

Originally posted by polomontana
Science proves life after death with the 1st law.

Nope.

reply to post by Johnmike



Too bad no proof doesn't mean not possible.
Too many people forget that little facet.


Just my two cents.

And incidently that first wrong of yours is an opinion rather than fact as neither of you really have any way to concretely discredit the other.


[edit on 1-3-2008 by WraothAscendant]

Indeed, no proof proves nothing, but to say we live on and believe it so requires proof, of which we have none.
The best proof we have is ghosts, but then we are left trying to prove what ghosts are, are they a manifestation of the living, or a remnant of the dead?

We have no proof, but I do believe it's possible, much more than I do the existence of god, only because there is more bumps in the night possibly attributed to ghosts, than rumblings in the heavens attributed to god.

I myself have seen or heard and felt, what could be a ghost(s), but was that what it was, or was it all in my head?

I don't know.

But to say we live on?

Maybe, Maybe not. We can't say that we do.

Where's the proof?

reply to post by Toadmund

Maybe, Maybe not. We can't say that we do.

Where's the proof?

Exactly.
There is really is no way (that I can think of and boy have I tried I would rather like some concrete answers damn it ) to empirically prove or disprove the existance of a soul.
Especially if spiritual matter is a completely different matter than material matter. The two things are of two completely different natures. Comparing apples to oranges come no where near close to describing the differences with this subject but it is a microscopic start.
And emperical science is purely based in the physical or material and goes beyond that into the physical or material that we can detect which may or may not be all there is.

We cannot dissect the universe in my opinion to any great degree so it that leaves us with some room to, I don't know a good word, fill in the blanks (?).

I am not saying there is such a thing as spiritual (though I believe there is) just trying in my own clumsy way of describing things to explain what I see as the crux of the problem.

I say. Yes there is no concrete proof either way so we should ALL show some tolerance of each others views. And acknowledge the fact we could be wrong.

As for the nature of a god. Well. When I say god I never have meant the Olympian, Abrahamic, etc view, my view of a god is more or less the sentience of the universe, not that we can hope to understand such sentience while in the flesh and nor does she/he/it really notice us any more than we notice the atoms that make up us. I believe we are all baby gods in our own right. As I have stated in a previous post in my own clumsy not so good at communicating way.

Sorry for the rant I shall now shut up.

reply to post by WraothAscendant

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
Too bad no proof doesn't mean not possible.

I don't think that's too bad, I think that's good - you can explore practically anything when doing research.

Originally posted by WraothAscendant
And incidently that first wrong of yours is an opinion rather than fact as neither of you really have any way to concretely discredit the other.

I think you meant "incidentally" but I get it.


Here, I'll pull up what my first "wrong" was:

Originally posted by polomontana
The 1st law of thermodynamics shows that life after death occurs.

That there is a claim. He is claiming that the first law of thermodynamics supports the idea that life exists after death.

Now, the following is the first law of thermodynamics:

The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings.

This is basically an extravagant way of saying, "energy is neither created nor destroyed." Conservation of energy.


"Life after death" generally requires some part of the human to exist after the body ceases to function. As in, something must live when the body dies. Polomontana has taken this to mean that some kind of human "energy" lives on after the body dies.

The problem can be simply stated in the form of a question: What energy? What energy lives on? What retains human consciousness? Nothing like this "soul" has been found to exist or even supported by any shred of evidence. He's essentially begging the question here.


So no, this thread was made in nothing short of blind ignorance, which is nothing to be ashamed of, as long as we learn from it. The first law of thermodynamics does not do anything, with current knowledge, to prove that there is life after death. It doesn't mean that I think that life after death doesn't exist, but the original poster's claim is false.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by Johnmike]

[edit on 1-3-2008 by Johnmike]

reply to post by Johnmike



Yeh. I probly should have avoided posting tonight. Having brainfarts all over the damn place tonight. I misinterepted you and attacked. Not a good excuse I know but its the only reason I have.

I apologise.

Near Death Experience. How can one have a journey of self fulfillment and experience epiphanies while declared DEAD? How can one experience such extravagance even in a comatose state?

Consciousness is energy, everything is energy (in the physical, different types), everything is Consciousness. Our physical reality is only an extremely vivid illusion, much like our Dreams which we declare 'not real'. Dreams exist, you experience Dreams then 'wake up' to experience yet another Dream which is undeniably vivid, and call it 'Reality'. The only difference is that your Dream is a held up by your own consciousness, and 'Reality' is a conglomerate of the Human collective consciousness. We are all living in a big dramatic and chaotic Dream. All we need to do is become awake and live out our wildest imaginations.

How do you prove the existence of a 'Soul'. It is quite arrogant to assume that our existence is the only kind.

Again it's simple.

E=hw/2 says it all.

Zero point energy exists in every particle in your body. This energy does not die when you die. The 1st law tells us that energy can't be created nor destroyed.

Everything you do is a measured energy state. If you marry the woman you love, it's a measured energy state. If you are mad at the world and you kill yourself, it's a measured energy state. These measured energy states don't die when your material body dies.

There you have it, PROOF that life exists after death.

I'm not saying that life exists in the same way we experience it in the body, but there's scientific PROOF that as John Mike said,"something must live when the body dies."

Originally posted by polomontana
E=hw/2 says it all.

What're you defining w as, polomontana? And h? h is normally Planck's constant (6.63E-34). If you mean w as wavelength (I've always used lambda for that) then that's wrong.

Originally posted by polomontana
Zero point energy exists in every particle in your body.

Define "zero point energy" please.

Originally posted by polomontana
This energy does not die when you die.

What energy?

Originally posted by polomontana
The 1st law tells us that energy can't be created nor destroyed.

Correct.

Originally posted by polomontana
Everything you do is a measured energy state.

Wrong.

Originally posted by polomontana
If you marry the woman you love, it's a measured energy state.

Wrong.

Originally posted by polomontana
If you are mad at the world and you kill yourself, it's a measured energy state.

Wrong.

Originally posted by polomontana
These measured energy states don't die when your material body dies.

Since there's no evidence that emotions have anything to do energy beyond chemicals released between nerve cells, wrong, as far as we know.

Originally posted by polomontana
There you have it, PROOF that life exists after death.

Again, wrong, no evidence, etc.

Originally posted by polomontana
I'm not saying that life exists in the same way we experience it in the body, but there's scientific PROOF that as John Mike said,"something must live when the body dies."

No, there is no proof, and I didn't say that something must live when the body dies.

[edit on 2-3-2008 by Johnmike]

Here we go:

E=hw/2 represents the lowest energy state of a quantum mechanical system and w is the frequency of the oscillator. So zero point energy is the ground state energy of a quantum harmonic oscillator.

Let me give you a visual. A pendulum swinging in classical physics will eventually come to rest. In quantum physics that pendulum will never come to rest because of zero point energy. So when we say rest in peace, the classical material body is at rest but not the persons zero point energy.

Zero point energy remains when all other energy is removed from the system. Every particle in your body contains zero point energy. This energy just returns to the zero point field at death.

Everything we do from emotions to thoughts and actions takes energy. These measured energy states do not die when your material body dies. Science backs this up.

If you want to learn more about the Zero Point Field, the book The Field by Lynne McTaggart is very good.
www.amazon.com...

You can read more about zero point energy here.
en.wikipedia.org...

Let me also add this.

The reason people fight tooth and nail against these things is because ignorance is bliss.

The 3-dimensional cave that we live in blinds us to the nature of reality. That's because there's comfort in the cave. This is why anytime you bring up things like this it's met with fervent opposition.

It's like Cipher in the movie the Matrix. He wanted to return to the Matrix because the truth was to hard to take. Sadly, alot of people in the world accept the cave and run from enlightenment.

I will admit, I think about life for me in the cave and I was living it up without a care in the world. Now the blinders are off and things are much different. It's easier to live in the cave, but I thank God that He blessed me with Enlightenment and I would never want to go back to being blind.