Abu Ghraib and humanity

I have seen the new pictures from Abu Ghraib.
I am sure that all those soldiers were not all evil murderers before they got there to be guards at that prison. I think they were the same as all the other soldiers. What happened then ?

I am sure that lots of people 50 % at least, if they are put in the same situation would do the same thing - torture the prisoners. Even if in their normal life are "nice" people.
They "go with the flow", forgetting that they are humans, they behave more like trees that all bend in the same way in the wind

Animals are trained using fear or rewards, we are humans and should behave like so, no human should ever make decisions based on fear or rewards

I won't comment on the nature of all the guards personalities so I won't call them inherently evil but there is no doubt their actions were.

Makes me ashamed to call my self an American.

Originally posted by pai mei
Animals are trained using fear or rewards, we are humans and should behave like so, no human should ever make decisions based on fear or rewards

If we use the findings from psychology, without doubt many 'normal' people would be open to torturing and mistreating other people. This is especially true when the 'other' is vilified and dehumanised, and people tend to be open to obedience to authority.

For the second bit and decisions. We do make decisions based on reward and punishment (rather than fear). In fact, when individuals have deficits in emotion and reward-related neural systems, they have a tendency to become socially dysfunctional (sometimes called 'acquired sociopathy'.

Read up on Phineas Gage, and even better, Damasio's book 'Descartes Error'. We actually need emotional systems to make compassionate and adaptive decisions. It is not a coinicidence that psychopaths appear to be emotionally dysfunctional and also have some form of frontal lobe dysfunction.

No,I disagree. First about fear - to not be influenced by fear in any decision is a good thing. Then about desire, people can live very well with no desire:
Choices should not be influenced by desire. That does not mean no to do pleasant things, it means that those things do not have power over you
www.ashidakim.com...

The Zen master Hakuin was praised by his neighbours as one living a pure life.

A beautiful Japanese girl whose parents owned a food store lived near him. Suddenly, without any warning, her parents discovered she was with child.

This made her parents angry. She would not confess who the man was, but after much harassment at last named Hakuin.

In great anger the parent went to the master. "Is that so?" was all he would say.

After the child was born it was brought to Hakuin. By this time he had lost his reputation, which did not trouble him, but he took very good care of the child. He obtained milk from his neighbours and everything else he needed.

A year later the girl-mother could stand it no longer. She told her parents the truth - the real father of the child was a young man who worked in the fishmarket.

The mother and father of the girl at once went to Hakuin to ask forgiveness, to apologize at length, and to get the child back.

Hakuin was willing. In yielding the child, all he said was: "Is that so?"

No reason to be ashamed , it's a human thing. I say 70 % of all the humans on Earth, given those conditions of no accountability and having someone lead by example would do the same

[edit on 29-2-2008 by pai mei]

Originally posted by pai mei
No,I disagree. First about fear - to not be influenced by fear in any decision is a good thing.

Unless you are being chased by a lion?

Then about desire, people can live very well with no desire:

Unless you need to drink?

Even in your case, you desire to not make decisions influenced by emotion. When you contemplate the nature and relevant features of a particular decision, then decide that your desires should have no influence, you came to that conclusion because it was a desire. To make that choice, to be influenced by such an idea, was a desire.

We are driven by motivation and emotion.

If you think otherwise, then that's cool. But we are emotional beings. For example, when you say 'no human should ever make decisions based on fear or rewards', you are making a value judgment, which requires emotion.

Much of the time you won't even realise it. When you look at a menu in a restaurant, when you decide whether to go to the shops before or after visting your mum, when you decide to buy a red shirt over a blue shirt. All driven by emotion.

For the better part of a half-hour, the patient enumerated reasons for and against each of the two dates: previous engagements, proximity to other engagements, possible meteorological conditions, virtually anything that one could reasonably think about concerning a simple date…he was now walking us through a tiresome cost-benefit analysis, an endless outlining and fruitless comparison of options and possible consequences.

Damasio (1994, p. 193)

That's an observation about a patient with damage to the orbitofrontal cortex. Even the most simple of decisions require emotions to enable efficient and effective decisions.

Now, in some instances, lack of infusion from emotion into decisions can be a good thing. Thus, Damasio also tells of how such patients can handle some fearful situations better than normal individuals - e.g. gaining control of a skidding car on ice. But overall, losing the emotional influence on decision-making isn't a good thing.

Again, though, if this makes your life better or more fulfilling, that's cool.

[edit on 29-2-2008 by melatonin]

Even if you are being chased by a lion you have no use for fear in your decisions. In the ideal case you would not care about being eaten or not by the lion but you would think clear and do what you can to not be eaten

Yes I chose the shirt I like in the shop, but I do not really care about it. You say all decisions require emotions ? What if a person does not want anything ? I am into buddhism and trying to escape desire
Do not think that such a person is a bored person waiting to die

Indeed I do not care about anything, nothing can force me to do anything - fear or rewards(hope so ) , I think this is what i was trying to say.
But this does not make me bored or indifferent, it makes me free to do what I like and be happy. Excluding desire does not exclude love, which is not a desire
I say do what you like but not in the sense that you really want it , and it has no influence over any decisions. Be happy
People can be happy without being moved around by various desires - look at the story from the other post. That Zen master did not care about anything but he was not indifferent and he took action

www.ashidakim.com...

When Banzan was walking through a market he overheard a conversation between a butcher and his customer.

"Give me the best piece of meat you have," said the customer.

"Everything in my shop is the best," replied the butcher. "You cannot find here any piece of meat that is not the best."

At these words Banzan became enlightened.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by pai mei]

Give people roles, and they will quickly start playing them. Everybody plays a role in our world, and most of the people are totally caught in that role, forgetting that they are humans above all. Their "masks" take over them

Stanford experiment :
en.wikipedia.org...

The experiment was conducted in 1971 by a team of researchers led by psychologist Philip Zimbardo at Stanford University. Undergraduate volunteers played the roles of both guards and prisoners living in a mock prison in the basement of the Stanford psychology building.

The experiment quickly grew out of hand. Prisoners suffered — and accepted — sadistic and humiliating treatment from the guards. The high level of stress progressively led them from rebellion to inhibition. By experiment's end, many showed severe emotional disturbances.

After a relatively uneventful first day, a riot broke out on the second day. The guards volunteered to work extra hours and worked together to break the prisoner revolt, attacking the prisoners with fire extinguishers without supervision from the research staff.

Prisoner counts, initially devised for the prisoners to learn their identity numbers, degenerated to hour-long ordeals where guards tormented the prisoners and imposed physical punishments, including long bouts of forced exercise. The prison became dirty and inhospitable; bathroom rights became privileges, which could be, and frequently were, denied. Some prisoners were forced to clean toilets with bare hands. Mattresses were removed from the "bad" cell block and the prisoners forced to sleep naked on the concrete floor. Moreover, prisoners endured forced nudity and even sexual humiliation.

Zimbardo cited his own absorption in the experiment he guided, and in which he actively participated as Prison Superintendent. On the fourth day, he and the guards reacted to an escape rumor by attempting to move the entire experiment to a real, unused cell block at the local police station, because it was more secure. The police department refused, citing insurance liability concerns; Zimbardo recalls his anger and disgust with the lack of co-operation, between his and the police's jails.

As the experiment proceeded, several guards became progressively sadistic. Experimenters said that approximately one-third of the guards exhibited genuine sadistic tendencies. Interestingly, most of the guards were upset when the experiment concluded early.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by pai mei]

reply to post by pai mei


It does not surprise me that obedience to authority and to playing a role dehumanises the perpetrator and the victim - I have seen this and experienced it first hand. However, I wondered if the sadistic tendencies in perps were retrained 'out' of them or if they remained damaged after the experiment?

Originally posted by pai mei
Give people roles, and they will quickly start playing them. Everybody plays a role in our world, and most of the people are totally caught in that role, forgetting that they are humans above all. Their "masks" take over them

Aye, t'was an interesting study. Rather unethical, but still a formative study in psychology.

Another you might like to look into is the Stanley Milgram studies on obedience. They were also repeated recently.

Originally posted by pai mei
Even if you are being chased by a lion you have no use for fear in your decisions. In the ideal case you would not care about being eaten or not by the lion but you would think clear and do what you can to not be eaten

Yes I chose the shirt I like in the shop, but I do not really care about it. You say all decisions require emotions ? What if a person does not want anything ? I am into buddhism and trying to escape desire
Do not think that such a person is a bored person waiting to die

Indeed I do not care about anything, nothing can force me to do anything - fear or rewards(hope so

) , I think this is what i was trying to say.
But this does not make me bored or indifferent, it makes me free to do what I like and be happy. Excluding desire does not exclude love, which is not a desire

I think it's an interesting approach you have, but I tend to think that if a lion jumps out the savannah grass, you might not have much time to contemplate the deeper meaning of this event through a clear deliberative process.

I think the main thing is to be able to control desires and fear. Some situations require the feeling of fear, indeed, it can actually help. Same with the postive drive towards reward. Many of these patients with a dysfunction of emotional systems do lack drive, they show apathy - needing people to tell them to dress and do chores etc.

However, when they become uncontrolled, then they are an issue. Thus, uncontrolled fear leads to anxiety. Not a good thing. Uncontrolled desires and search for rewards can lead to impulsivity.

And I think if you are using buddhist meditative techniques, these will likely enhance control of our more impulsive natures. But to wake up and even think that you would like to meditate, this involves desires, heh. So, you give meditation high value - a positive desirable behaviour. You even value or desire the ability to overcome desires. I suppose it's somewhat a paradox.

[edit on 1-3-2008 by melatonin]