Obama's America looks a lot like Canada

drags everyone down.reply to post by pjsconcrete


Ah, but there's the philosophical nuance that most people don't understand. Its not that conservatives don't want their taxes to help people. Its that they don't believe it actually does help people.

In fact, most conservatives believe quite the opposite, as you see in this very thread. We tend to believe that it creates a class of people dependent upon government for their survival, which is something most conservatives find abhorrent and unacceptable. Such a system amounts to servitude, where the voters in this class must continually vote for liberals, who will guarantee their benefits and, by extension, their survival. It is in this sense that others in this thread propose that socialism can destroy a democratic society without that society even realizing it.

Conservative philosophy, in a nutshell, is that there's only one person that can help you, and that's you.

As for the national healthcare debate, again, its not that they don't believe we need a better system. Most conservatives are against it because they believe it will eliminate their ability to choose their provider and will lower the quality of their own coverage. For them, this is a lose-lose situation: higher taxes and a worse end-product.

And finally, yes, there are a few conservatives who really just don't care about the poor, but its not most. Likewise, there are a few liberals (politicians, mainly), who really don't care about the poor either and are only interested in bringing more money to the federal coffers for their own pet projects.

Originally posted by West Coast


The competitive nature is what has made this nation the richest. By making a welfare, socialist loving state, you not only eventually will bankrupt the system, but will also create more poor people, who in turn, will help bankrupt the system.

And never really hear it about Canada

It's strange, but what you've just said perfectly describes the USA at present... Virtually bankrupt and with a fast increasing poor population... So much for the dog eat dog that is Capitalism

A few facts (sort of relevant) from the CIA Worldbook

Account balance estimates from CIA World Fact Book ( published 12th February 2008 )

1st: China with $ 363,300,000,000

5th: Russia with $ 74,000,000,000

14th: Canada with $ 28,460,000,000

161st: United Kingdom with $ -111,000,000,000

163rd ( last place ): United States with $ -747,100,000,000

Here are the links to where I first saw the info:
usemycomputer.com...

and a direct link to the relevant page at the CIA site:
www.cia.gov...

Neither the US or the UK come out looking too good on that list... and BOTH could benefit from becoming more like Canada

On a final note... It's ironic that A 'Communist' country, and a former communist country top that list!!

Originally posted by JBA2848
reply to post by vor78

 

Haven't been to Canada but never really heard anything bad about them. Except that the cost of things are higher cause they don't pay taxes. I've known a few and seemed like good guys for the most part.

Don't pay taxes?? Heheh....that's funny - most Canadians think that US citizens don't pay enough taxes. Besides, to have a fair and socially, ethically run society, you need taxes. I know some of you won't like that statement - but it's true. Which is why Canada is so different from the states.

J.

I agree, here in Canada we pay a lot of taxes and we do have our problems for instance here on the west coast the major problems we have are: homeless, improper care facilities for the mentally unstable but there are a lot more good things I can think of about Canada.
1. Healthcare system 2. abundant non polluted non populated land (second only to the former U.S.S.R. i believe) 3. abundant natural resources oil, timber, fish, ore, FRESH DRINKING WATER

I suppose that our small population helps with all this but its still a pretty kick ass place to live.........as long as you don't mind the cold in the winter especially on the east coast.

Well, if the US does become more like Canada, at least you guys will be able to travel overseas without getting linched.

And no, Canada is not a socialist state. I'm still not sure where that rumor is coming from.
Our government is a parliamentary government... which means it's run by hundreds of people... not one dictator.

[edit on 27-2-2008 by johnsky]

Dagar: Very nice post, gave you a star for that one!

I'm a Canadian, and a lot of the things I've been reading from the American stance just aren't right.
We're your nieghbours.
We learn about YOUR history in OUR schools.
Why can't you understand US a bit better?

Originally posted by Dewm0nster

We learn about YOUR history in OUR schools.

That's a good point to bring up. The American education system is in some dire need for repair.

Why do they seem to avoid world affairs so much? Are they afraid of their citizens running away once they realize there's a world outside of the US?

I'm not looking forward to this election... again.

I consider myself a moderate, but both sides have policies I am not fond of at all. I don't understand why Mccain wants to be so easy on the illegals, as does Obama. Obama wants to take our guns away. Mccain has waffled on several subjects. Etc etc.

I live in south Florida. I know people who have been in accidents as a result of Cubans without any identification, no license, etc. I work at Walgreens in Bonita Springs, and I know several of the pharmacies in certain regions of Bonita Springs are losing business because you can barely understand some of the employees - how they got hired in the first place, I don't know. The crime in South Florida is sky high, and zoning is ridiculous due to the shantis and trailors needed to house all the workers. I'm sure there are countless other debates in other southern states like Arizona and Texas.

I'm not terribly familiar with the policies of Canada, and how a more "Canadian US" would be. I'm fairly sure, however, that I would much prefer that than the "illegal Mexican/Cuban/Haitian US" that many parts of this country are being forced to adapt to.

This is going to be a critical election in terms of this, the war, health care... all kinds of issues. Just not really a fan of either Obama or Mccain. Meh. Until then, I will continue saving up some money to buy guns in case Obama and the other Libs can find a way to ban half of them again.

reply to post by West Coast


THANK YOU! If you want to live in a place like canada, there is such a place in existance...its called canada. If you want that kind of government and life, then move there. I prefer not to live under a government like canada's...that is why I prefer to stay in america.

I don't understand why people want to change the US to another socialist state when there are already so many out there they could choose from.

reply to post by grimreaper797


I hate to tell you, but the US is only slightly less socialist than Canada.

I love this stuff, people are pretty nutty - Canada is not North Korea folks


reply to post by el_madmaster

Obama wants to take our guns away.

While Obama is certainly too pro-gun control for my taste, this is simply a lie.

As a Senator, Obama joined Republicans to ban firearms seizures like those in New Orleans after Katrina. Hillary was one of a few Senators supporting the firearms seizures and opposing the ban on seizures.

He's also on the record as stating that he believes the Second Amendment protects an individual right, not a collective one (IE the "militia" argument).
This is unusual for a liberal Democrat.

reply to post by vor78


I absolutely agree that people need to help themselves!!! That's the big problem I see with liberalism. The reason I'm an independant. I guess I should have said neo-cons and not conservatives. I just think we need to do something about our health care system and our political system. Neither works anymore. I think the answer is to take the money out of politics and for-profit out of healthcare.

I love the new smileys!!!

Originally posted by xmotex
reply to post by grimreaper797

 

I hate to tell you, but the US is only slightly less socialist than Canada.

Thats the whole problem. Socialism doesn't work in the US and it never will. Trying to push it upon us just turns the US into this semi socialist state that can't fully make the transition because too many conservatives are smart enough to realize that government shouldn't have such power.

You want government to be in control, go live somewhere else and stop voting for people in the US who are just going to centralize government even more. We don't want a strong central government. We don't care what you think is morally right or for the greater good. If you want to force your "THIS IS WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT" views on everyone else, go live somewhere else. I prefer to live in a country where I can do what I want, and neither I or the government have any place to tell you where your money is spent or what you have to support. (aside from funding the government to keep functioning and fund our military to defend the country if needed).

I love this stuff, people are pretty nutty - Canada is not North Korea folks

The only nutty people are socialists. If it weren't bad enough that the socialist ideals further poverty and never work as the socialist fantasized it, they feel the need to force it upon everyone else like it were the greatest thing to happen to mankind. The socialists abuse our federal governments ability to make new laws, and attempt to create a central government in the country that was suppose to be the roll model for a decentralized free government.

You're missing the point - the point is neither the US, EU, or Canada are truly "socialist"... they have welfare states, but they are market economies, not state-run economies.

If you can name me any modern economy that doesn't have a welfare state, please name it... good luck

There's a reason for this: "pure" capitalism - much like "pure socialism" - simply does not work.

Originally posted by xmotex
You're missing the point - the point is neither the US, EU, or Canada are truly "socialist"... they have welfare states, but they are market economies, not state-run economies.

If you can name me any modern economy that doesn't have a welfare state, please name it... good luck

There's a reason for this: "pure" capitalism - much like "pure socialism" - simply does not work.

please show me one society where pure capitalism has been attempted. The idea is to work towards that, not against it. Competition comes with capitalism, but its not going to be every person for themself all the time. Guess why.

Ever see A Beautiful Mind? Remember the original theory that John Nash comes up with? The most beneficial choice is the decision that benefits you AND the group, not just you, and not just the group.

If we molded government on this idea. Things like roads and such would be beneficial for the individual AND the group. Things like healthcare are just beneficial for the group. Things like special tax breaks just benefit certain individuals.

Everyone benefits from making roads. Everyone benefits from having a well maintained military. Everyone benefits from our government maintaining good trade relations with other nations.

Those are not socialist programs. They aren't socialist programs because they aren't there for the greater good, they are there to benefit just one individual, but every individual, rich or poor. I am not going to discriminate against somebody just because they are rich or poor. Their economic standing in this world should not determine the rights they have, or the taxes they must pay.

You have no right to take money from a rich person for a program that does not benefit them. Not their company, but them. If it does not benefit all individuals of all classes, then it should not be in federal government. If we didn't have roads, EVERYONE would suffer, from every class, rich or poor. You can't say the same with healthcare. Thats because the healthcare idea is a socialist idea, where the roads idea is just a basic function of government. It is a basic function because it provides something everyone can benefit from, not just a greater good mentality.

[edit on 28-2-2008 by grimreaper797]

please show me one society where pure capitalism has been attempted.

Most of Europe and the US in the 19th and early 20th centuries. Which generally resulted in communist revolutions or fascist regimes, wherever the .gov didn't institute some kind of a welfare state.

The problem with pure capitalism is that wealth tends to accumulate in the hands of a very few, and life for the rest gets worse. The more money you have, the more money you can make... thus wealth concentrates in the hands of a tiny minority.

Eventually the 90% that are broke decide they're not going to take it anymore, and take over.

The welfare state is the first line of defense against a communist/socialist takeover.

When you look at it that way, it doesn't seem so bad.

[edit on 2/28/08 by xmotex]

reply to post by Dewm0nster

We learn about YOUR history in OUR schools.

This is all they ever learned us!



Becker

[edit on 28-2-2008 by Becker44]

Originally posted by xmotex

The welfare state is the first line of defense against a communist/socialist takeover.

When you look at it that way, it doesn't seem so bad.

uh.....a welfare state IS a socialist take over. Socialism leads to an increasingly centralized government. A centralized government with that kind of power leads to tyranny.

If you fear the monster in the shadows (corporations), you BETTER fear what that monster fears (government).

Originally posted by grimreaper797
If you fear the monster in the shadows (corporations), you BETTER fear what that monster fears (government).

I'd like to point out that the government is still the only tool we have in place capable of fighting the corporations' ever-increasing power.

The government was put in place by the people, and the people must regain control of it.

Corporations will always be exclusively controlled by the power elite, the rich.

/offtopic
I love the BTS icons. It's the only place were I can actively engage in banana worship.

uh.....a welfare state IS a socialist take over.

No, it's not.

When the government nationalizes the economy, that's a socialist takeover.

When the economy is primarily driven by market economics, by definition it's not a socialist state.

Market capitalism with a welfare state is not "socialism"...

[edit on 2/28/08 by xmotex]

Originally posted by JBA2848
Haven't been to Canada but never really heard anything bad about them. Except that the cost of things are higher cause they don't pay taxes. I've known a few and seemed like good guys for the most part.

Hahahaha, that's a good one!
It'd be nice but we do pay taxes. I don't know what you mean by the 'cost of things' but prices are not out of line with what you've got down south.
USA will never be like Canada until they stop giving people 10 years in jail for a harmless ounce of a certain dried flower material.