Religious beliefs: You must die before you start really living.

I have noticed a trend in Christianity and Islam, that you must die, before you really start living. I'm not speaking about being born again.

To me this is disturbing, I'm going to use this quote from another thread:

Originally posted by Incarnated
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

75% of people die and then some.

I don't see this as a positive or negitive thing. I'm a majorly spiritual person. I believe the reason for this phyical life is the spiritual "after life" life.

This is a belief I have noticed many times but until I saw it written out in the other thread, it occurs to be that Islam seems to share this same belief set. The whole 70 virgins after death thing.

This bothers me, because to me these people are just waiting for death so they can start to live??? Seems to me, they should be attempting to live life to the fullest now while they have the chance, because once you go, there could be nothing.

Well ATS what do you think?

It's all about the afterlife (if there is one) in those religions. It's important to enjoy your earthly life as well, there's no guaranteeing what's on the other side. What lies beyond could be something entirely different than what you were programed or raised to believe.

They're slave religions. Basically you are told to devote your life to some taskmaster you never see who never rewards you and in fact abuses you. You are to endure this abuse, accept the hardship, never ask for more in your life. And in return, when you finally die, you get paradise.

Abrahamism in a nutshell

reply to post by LDragonFire


But the guy you quoted believes he an incarnated Angel. That's hardly an example of mainstream believers in anything.

It says in the bible,somewhere, that god will give you a new heart and a new body.It also says that we are created in HIS image.I don't worry about superanuation, because I really don't think the money will be there, however, a lot of old people, that is retired now, did, and are enjoying there retirement. ok thats fine.Most retiries will tell you that it's important to put away for then because after all, who wants to be old and living on a meagre pension?Now, I believe that our true retirement comes later, after we die.This life is mearly a stepping stone to the next one, and I personally feel that those,like,I don't know, "bad" people, will take a little longer in the next life to reach the next one and so on.Yes it's important to live this life to the full, but just maybe not at the expense of our fellow man around us.The whole seventy two virgins thing is a product of the teachings of mohummad(spelling) from, the 14th century or something. This kind of thinking is materialistic, selfish, and in my mind wrong.Thats not to say i'm right.It's just,um, what are you really going to do with seventy two virgins?
After about, depending on how your going, maybe thirty days at the most, there wouldn't be many virgins left,lol
And then your stuck with seventy two, wingeing,nagging women, forever!!,lol no thanks

What do you mean by 'really living'?
What does it take to make a person satisfied?

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Things don't make someone happy.
Other people can't always make someone happy.
Is it appropriate to be joyful in a suffering world?

The evidence we experience every day reveals that joy and happiness are not enjoyed by everyone. Mirth and other expressions, such as laughing at an uncouth joke, are just fleeting moments of joy and do not produce the peace of soul and heart.

The fallout from the fall of man is relentless, but in spite of it all, Christians should be known for their irrepressible, contagious, conspicuous joy! Yet, it seems that the sound of laughter and inexpressible joy is noticeably missing from many Christians’ countenance. Has the task of coping in a sin-full world overcome even the followers of Christ? Let’s face it; Christians are human. Is it realistic to believe that it is possible to maintain a sense of inner gladness, even when troubles and sorrow come our way?

"The joy of the Lord is your strength."—Nehemiah 8:10.
"And the singers sang aloud, with Jezrahiah their overseer. Also that day they offered great sacrifices, and rejoiced: for God had made them rejoice with great joy: the wives also and the children rejoiced: so that the joy of Jerusalem was heard even afar off."—Nehemiah 12:42-43.

1. Joy is maintained by daily rolling our burdens on the Lord.
In the middle 1800's George Muller had homes for over 400 orphans. Muller was asked how he maintained his joy with the crushing responsibility he had for all his orphans. His response, "Before I did anything this morning, I rolled sixty burdens onto the Lord." "Give your burdens to the Lord and He will carry them." (Psalm 55:22)

We can Ask God for happiness;
Jhn 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

Act 13:52 And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost.
SOMEONES salvation is a paramount JOY in our lives!

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

At the end of the day, oppression, ridicule, misunderstanding are standard fare,
Act 20:24 But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.



[edit on 29-2-2008 by Clearskies]

Hey! We live our lives to the fullest but the world's definition of living life and the Christian definition of living live can differ dramatically. Here is a series of photographs of a woman who lived her life doing whatever she wanted:



She's now dead.

I'm not a drunk because I like being aware of what is going on around me while being fully in control of my facilities. I don't need it to have a good time although I love hanging out with my friends. Drugs are a no no for the same reason. Upon that, I'm not wasting my life away due to their influence. I have never had an STD because I have never slept around and am 100% faithful to my husband. I don't have any tattoos- not just because of what the Bible says but because I think they are trashy on the female body. I don't dance naked on bar tables because I have respect for myself. Etc., etc.

But I do excersie and take care of myself, enjoy my friendships and familial relationships, learn and grow, and enjoy every single day that God created.

All the 'thou shalt nots" in the Bible are for our benefit. My life is full because I do not need the things the world defines as living. I've got it all already.

Religion's biggest selling point - life after death. It's all about overcoming (or succumbing to) humanity's natural fear of death. Sometimes the death ritual is re-enacted to fully realise this (eg Masonry, Voodoo, Mystery religions, etc).

reply to post by AshleyD


My testimony is different. I wasn't raised in a Christian environment.

I did not become a Christian until my late 30s. I played in Rock bands on the road - made a lot of money - thought I was the bomb -- got married -divorced - drank - did drugs - all the above.

But almost all that bad stuff did happen to me. What once was fun became slavery. I watched some of my friends die and go to jail. The wages of sin is death, so repent before payday.

I repented - that means I did a 180 - I accepted Jesus Christ and my life is much more fulfilling now. I went to college and got a job as a computer programmer. I play music at church for 2500 people every week. I struggle with sin everyday. It is hard to grow. But it gets easier.

I used to think the rules would suck - life would be boring without partying and promiscuity... but really that stuff is really what sucks. I am lucky to be alive and I thank God that he found me and pulled me out of that crap life of the world.

The rules are there to protect us not to keep us from something worthwhile.

You do not have to give up anything worth keeping to be a Christian.









[edit on 2/29/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by LDragonFire

 

But the guy you quoted believes he an incarnated Angel. That's hardly an example of mainstream believers in anything.

Really the O.P. was taken so far out of context I didn't see any reason to respond. I'd have to say it's clear the O.P. has their own agenda to spin such a soundbite into a thread.

First I never said you have to wait to die to start living.

My point was that you should think about living now to achieve living now. Living what is that? Is that drinking until you posin yourself? Brother that ain't living it's dying.

What's this "Living" the autor is sudgesting we all are saying you need to wait to die before you can achieve.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Exactly. Again, what the world may consider living can actually be very self destructive. They seem to think God doesn't want us to have any fun but that simply isn't true. We get to have the fun and enjoyment while avoiding the STD's, addictions, regret, baby's mommas/daddies, poor reputation, legal trouble, jail sentences, etc.

I just can't think of too many long term benefits that go along with sleeping around, drug abuse, alcohol abuse, stealing, lying, killing, dabbling in the occult, etc.

I'll pass on all that junk and probably live longer than those you don't pass on it.

[edit on 2/29/2008 by AshleyD]

I was baptised chirstain twice too bad they never impanted a spelling chip.... anywho i abandoned that hokey religion once a paster told me that animals an plants are only here to serve man.... that was the most conceeded comment I have ever heard an it was comming from a paster an was widely believed....

we are animals. I mean cows have almost the same dna as us, so do monkeys, why are they here to serve us but they are almost like us. if not fully.

anywho, I believe our lives are extentions of a homebase exsistence, Our mission is to experience life, learn an grow into who we think we are. we die an i feel we goto a homebase ( heaven some call it ) then you decide what your gonna do next, you have total freewill always, but no one is gonna help you out if you take away others freewill. These lives are in my opinon some sort of mega ultra databank, our lives are all recorded 1st in our souls an then once we die they are uploaded to a mainframe so to speak. spirituality is still there its just more complex. all an all, life this life is a process of exsisting not just here but in general.

To everyone above, you are all correct in your own way, the fact that you are posting to this thread right now suggests that you have all made a start to thinking about what happens next, which is important. I had a friend who shot himself, and every so often afterwards I would dream about him, the first big dream he was in a dark place where the were others, but as I stood there observing, he turned and walked silently away along a beach, that dream told me he was lost, but..ok
The second dream he was back in his home town observing others, but not being noticed, that dream told me he still ok and had found himself. I haven't dreamed of him since, which to me is good, it tells me he has moved on. I was in a coma one time for week, during that time, asleep in my head, I found myself sitting by a rock! in a very dark place where there was nothing but boulders, there was just a small dim light just over this one rock, so I just sat down and waited.I remember being very sad, lost, and alone, I could here women crying, and I knew that they were crying for me.I never want to see that place again. So save your money for your retirement, but also save your soul for the hereafter.

The whole point to this thread is my attempt to understand the mind set, of looking forward to death, or to the destruction of the world as a joyous event, based on your belief in religion, and how this belief is prevalent in many different religions.

To think that the destruction of mankind is good, because it will usher in your savior, is disturbing to say the least.

My mother has cancer, and It barring some miracle, will kill her. She is good with this, she says she is prepared to do her fathers will, whatever that may be. She is holding onto this belief set and is drawing strength from it.

It is difficult if not impossible for me to understand or even comprehend this.

Thanks for the replies, I'm not attempting to bash, just to understand.

reply to post by LDragonFire


I am going to offer you a different view of why "death must occur before we really live." This idea pre-dates Christianity by quite a good bit. It is in the oldest religions that we have solid evidence of. BUT..... and this is important, the death is NOT a physical one. In todays language it would be stated as "the death of the Ego, or persona, must occur before YOU, your core self can truly live."

The basic concept is that the Mind creates illusions. Everything is One "thing," and Divine at its core, but because of our mind, things appear separate, individual, and "mortal." Your mind creates an "idea of you" that is based upon these "mistakes." You believe yourself separate, and because we cannot "see" with our physical eyes that we are NOT separate from the One, the Divine, or God, we fear. We fear evil, death, etc. A life lived in fear, is not really lived. It is endured, or suffered. So, if "you" can "die" or the Ego, or Persona can lose its grip on your identity, and that identity can shift back to YOU the core Self, you can not know fear, and only then can you really live.

This concept is found in the Ancient Greek mystery religions, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many other "pagan" religions. I personally believe that this concept is the origin of the concept in Christianity too, but I think there it was interpreted literally, as so many things are, when it was meant allegorically.

And just to "testify," I am happy, do not use drugs, or "party," I do help my neighbors, give money to the homeless, open the door for strangers, have no tattoos, do not steal, or kill, and rarely lie, and I have managed all this without becoming what passes for Christian in todays world. Lol. Not to insult anyone, but some of the posts made it sound like if you were not a "Christian" your life was going nowhere fast. Not true at all. I personally think very highly of Jesus, it is the teachings of Paul I cannot bring myself to believe.

PS to AshleyD, I dont remember the "thou shalt not dance on bar tables" could you please post the chapter and verse for me?

[edit on 1-3-2008 by Illusionsaregrander]

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
PS to AshleyD, I dont remember the "thou shalt not dance on bar tables" could you please post the chapter and verse for me?

That blasted King James edited that 11th commandment out of the Bible. It's there in the original Hebrew texts! Honest!

I'll clarify this for you on the christians perspective. First like you posted you die once your saved, the old man is passed away behold all things have become new, you are a new creature. What dying before living means is you must live your life a living sacrifice constantly denying the flesh its wants and desires and following after Gods will, not your own will. I'm not sure what the muslims believe about this but this is definitely what the christians believe, Sacrificing your way of life your will for Gods way.



Keeper

Hey don't knock it.

I heard something years that really was really funny.
Basically, I was told by someone that people should go through a divorce before they ever get married.

It was extremely funny when I first heard it and stuck with me over the years but guess what, it happened to me.

At least the first part did anyway.

Moral, be careful what you poke fun at!

Originally posted by LDragonFire
The whole point to this thread is my attempt to understand the mind set, of looking forward to death, or to the destruction of the world as a joyous event, based on your belief in religion, and how this belief is prevalent in many different religions.

I don’t look forward to death; however, I do not fear it either. I don’t look forward to the destruction of the world. I don’t consider it a joyous event as I have many family and friends who are not Christians. I don’t want any of them to suffer. I do look forward to spending eternity with my Savior.

To think that the destruction of mankind is good, because it will usher in your savior, is disturbing to say the least.

It is not the destruction of mankind, but the destruction of this world’s order. Once again, I don’t look forward to it; I only accept the inevitability of it. My Savior will be ushered in at His desire and not mine.

My mother has cancer, and It barring some miracle, will kill her. She is good with this, she says she is prepared to do her fathers will, whatever that may be. She is holding onto this belief set and is drawing strength from it.

My heart goes out to you. I lost my mother to cancer over two years ago and my father followed her 13 days later from a pulmonary embolism. They both looked forward to seeing their Savior. Neither feared death. Our last few months with them were full of love and happiness. Their Home goings were celebrations of their lives and not mornings of our loss. Yes I still miss them very much, but I have a deep understanding that they are where they belong and that one day I will be reunited with them.

It is difficult if not impossible for me to understand or even comprehend this.

Please give your mother respect for her beliefs. I know how difficult this is for you but try to let her go gracefully if that is the inevitable. Once again, my heart goes out to you.

Thanks for the replies, I'm not attempting to bash, just to understand.

That is the blessed hope that Christians have. No matter how good or bad life gets here, we have something much better over there. My sister lost her two-year-old son in a drowning accident almost 11 years ago. This was her lifeline that he is with God now. If she did not have this belief, her marriage and possibly her mental health would have taken a big hit. As it is, she is much happier with this belief.

Many will feel that she is deluding herself. To them I say, what does that hurt in the long run?

reply to post by Incarnated


I agree with you. By far the best response, imo (for what that's worth).

I believe actually dying in order to achieve heaven is total BS. It's a deliberate misreading of the sacred texts by those who would use that to talk someone into becoming a 'martyr' (read fool). The true meaning is as plain as day and it rather has to do with becoming wiser while still alive.

What good to the world is a dead human other than that s/he accomplishes for the living what they'd fear to do themselves?

To 'die' in the holy texts does not implicitly mean really dying. It can mean a great many things. For instance, a native youth, alone in the wilderness, cut off from his/her people while on a 'spirit quest' is one way to experience a 'death', while Christ's 40 days in the desert is another.

But those are dangerous extremes not to be attempted without some kind of safety net.

There are other kinds of 'deaths' too, and they are just as effective.

One method is common to the vast majority of westerners... cutting yourself off from the rat race. Turn off your televisions, your computers and blackberries. Leave your cell phone in a drawer and stop socializing with your 'so called' friends. Find something to do that needs nothing from 'outside of yourself', whatever that may be. Take a month out of your busy life for just yourself. If you work, take a holiday and go camping by yourself for the entire time or something.

Within the first few days, you'll be 'bored to death'! But, that's only the beginning.

Honestly, you'll find you never really knew who you were until you try it. Be smart, though, and allow someone to know where you are so they can check up on you. The key is solitude. You can stock up your home with enough food to last a few weeks and have the same result as if you were in the bush somewhere.

What result? You'll find out who you really are... the old 'finding yourself' thing, but without it being just more empty rhetoric, like the thousand commercials you see and hear every day.

Listen to what Carl G Jung says in this regard;

from Modern Man in Search of His Soul by CG Jung (Harcourt Inc ISBN 0-15661206-2 Harvest pbk)

The man whom we can with justice call "modern" is solitary. He is so full of necessity and at all times, for every step towards a fuller consciousness of the present removes him further from his original "participation mystique" with the mass of men- from submersion in a common unconsciousness. Every step forward means a means an act of tearing hiself loose from that all-embracing, pristine unconsciousness which claims the bulk of mankind almost entirely.

Back away from the rat race, learn what really interests you and begin working on those things which must always rise to the forefront in its stead.

Do it gradually or cut the cord quick... in the long run, you'll feel re-made and never turn back.


BBCode fix

[edit on 1/4/08 by masqua]