Why do people insist on calling some symbols Masonic when they are not?

reply to post by AugustusMasonicus


- I was using the symbol over the door as an example, I wasn't being literal, it was to point something else out.

- Again I disagree, I see masonic symbols there... if you cant thats fine. The eye, triangle and words... all ARE Masonic symbols.

- What if I dont buy this story about Benjamin Franklin, what if I question this?? I see evidence that points to another idea, would anyone admit to this anyway?

- I can think of plenty of things that could have gone there instead, but an eye in a triangle, I dont buy it.

This type of image only underscores my point, the All-Seeing Eye depicted is not Masonic but has a far older pedigree. It has recently, relative to its age, been incorporated into Masonry and is not soley 'Masonic" in nature. It is an icon of other cultures and socities and is still in use by groups other then Masons.

-So its not Masonic... but then its recently been incorporated... confusing, I know it comes from older times but in context to where it appears... (see above for the rest).

-Its a symbol like we see symbols in Masonry.... it may not be proportioned but it still shows the same symbol.... the bricks in the pyramid are not equal but they still went with it.

- The secret building thing was in reference to back when stone construction started.... arches, cathedrals being new methods and secrets.... I know they are available now.

I knew this would end up all about the $... forget that because neither of us will suddenly change our minds on this issue. You asked a question in your thread title and i gave you a possible reason.... take it or leave it.

reply to post by II HAL II


This makes no sense to me, literally.

I give explicit examples of when applying your logic yields very odd results - like my masonic car, because its blue. Then you tell me that I can't do that because blue is generic. Who gets to decide when something is masonic and when it is not? Where is the line? You seem to be the one drawing the line on when something gets to be masonic and when it doesn't get to be masonic, so it ends up seeming even more arbitrary.

I placed a square and compass on my car once, as many masons do. Does this mean my car is now masonic? Surely even you would agree a square and compass is masonic, but the fact that I am a mason and place a symbol on something does not make that something masonic - unless we start holding lodge in my car - and I assure you that would be cramped.

What makes something masonic is when it is used for a masonic purpose. What is a masonic purpose? Performing some sort of ritual in it or on it for the benefit of the members. When a cornerstone is laid in a building by a lodge, the building is not masonic unless masons are using it for a ritualistic purpose. Otherwise, the only thing masonic about it is the cornerstone itself.

You are free to disagree, but there is nothing masonic about the dollar bill - again - unless I've missed a huge square and compass on it. Making patterns with letters does not a masonic image make. Do you realize the text on the dollar bill ALSO makes the word N-O-S-E - does this mean the dollar bill is noseic (is that a word)?

Other posters in this thread are more eloquent than I, and have yet again responded and shown you that the all seeing eye IS NOT MASONIC! It is used by numerous religions and for a variety of purposes. You are making a link where none exists. You haven't sufficiently shown causation, nor even a correlation (the lowest standard of evidence).

If you are not claiming that masons have any power, then why do you bring up such statements about how "some people in power are masons" - you make the statement then back off when the implications of your statements are called out.

Where is this evidence for there being sooo many masons in the construction industry?

Somebody please, sell the man some vowels, or clues or whatever he needs to solve the puzzle and feel satisfied that these ideas are peddle by hypesters to make a quick buck and create a following. They choose things that are difficult for the average person to research and when someone who knows tries to tell them they reject it because that would mean they were fooled by hypesters and no one wants to find out they were fooled. There is no harm in waking up and seeing the panic mongers for what they are.

Originally posted by II HAL II
- Again I disagree, I see masonic symbols there... if you cant thats fine. The eye, triangle and words... all ARE Masonic symbols.

I have already explained the Eye's ancestry. As for the words, they are in Latin and I have never heard of anyone, prior to this, proclaiming Latin to somehow be Masonic. Can you explain your position further?

- What if I dont buy this story about Benjamin Franklin, what if I question this?? I see evidence that points to another idea, would anyone admit to this anyway?

- I can think of plenty of things that could have gone there instead, but an eye in a triangle, I dont buy it.

It does sound odd, but it is indeed the truth. The original motto was supposed to be, 'rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God'; absolutely nothing Masonic about that from the Seal's only Masonic contributor.

Information regarding the Great Seal and Benjamin Franklin

More information

Even more information

Still more information

As you can see if you examined the links I provided, the anecdote I included regarding Brother Franklin is far from fabricated and may be taken as historical fact. Benjamin Franklin was a prolific writer and his notes reagrding the majority of his actions were copius. Feel free to dig further and uncover more information if need be.

-Its a symbol like we see symbols in Masonry.... it may not be proportioned but it still shows the same symbol.... the bricks in the pyramid are not equal but they still went with it.

Are you refering to the six-sided star in the parlor trick you highlighted? If so, there are no six-sided stars appearing in Masonry anywhere. If you feel that this is incorrect perhaps you can provide examples to support your assertion.

- The secret building thing was in reference to back when stone construction started.... arches, cathedrals being new methods and secrets.... I know they are available now.

Then why make that statement to begin with? You stated that Masons somehow have a heavy presence in modern construction due to their ancestors Operative participation in that field. I do not think that any of the MAsons you work with somehow gravitated to this line of employment due to historical ties to their Operative ancestors.

I knew this would end up all about the $... forget that because neither of us will suddenly change our minds on this issue. You asked a question in your thread title and i gave you a possible reason.... take it or leave it.

Everything you have posted above I have already covered, I'm not going round and round with you guys... so read it all from the beginning and most of your points I have answered already.

I'm giving you another side... if you don't want to except it that's fine... I'm not worried about it... and I don't have the time to reply to three people on every detail... but I could if I did have the time.

If it makes you all feel better I will say you win if that's what you want, but I will still think what I think regardless of what Masons or anyone says here without showing me that the symbols I say are Masonic are not because I see them in Masonry and have shown you too.

Originally posted by II HAL II
Everything you have posted above I have already covered, I'm not going round and round with you guys... so read it all from the beginning and most of your points I have answered already.

I'm giving you another side... if you don't want to except it that's fine... I'm not worried about it... and I don't have the time to reply to three people on every detail... but I could if I did have the time.

If it makes you all feel better I will say you win if that's what you want, but I will still think what I think regardless of what Masons or anyone says here without showing me that the symbols I say are Masonic are not because I see them in Masonry and have shown you too.

The irony meter just exploded on me. Literally. Its a device that measures the irony level in posts, and you broke it!

You have indeed answered my points at least, but they have not been satisfactory when examined - indeed, they actually show the opposite of your intentions. You don't want to listen to another side and don't want to accept it.

This isn't about winning, and if you think it is then thats something you need to address internally. The only person who thinks they've won/lost is you - I could care less - this board is about learning (to me, at least). You have yet to show symbols that would make something masonic simply because they get slapped on something. If I took a square and compass sticker and was able to put it on the white house, would the white house become masonic? After all, a mason placed a masonic symbol on it!

I agree its not about winning at all. The main point is sharing information. I thought the folks here were very generous in sharing information. I did as much as I could. Its more ironic that people were trying to help out and the help was rejected at every turn. For the folks that believe these odd sorts of things I would think it important to listen and ask questions of people that either put in the leg work or know from first hand experience. To look at a web page that someone made up and then to take that as your own truth and try to defend it helps no one. More so one some of these topics where things are harder to research. Don't be fooled by the fear mongers. They make a good living hawking their wares to people that won't check things out for themselves.

reply to post by Illahee


Thank you for your post Illahee, I feel you fully understand the rationale behind my purpose for creating this thread. It is much easier to proclaim 'truths' without research then to perform it and dispell rumor or supposition.

It sounds like to me that the Masons here today wish to not be a part of the Albert Pike sect.

The teachings of Albert Pike link Free Masonry with the Temple of Solomon. The holy objects such as the Ark of the Covenant and the Lampstand were concealed in blue cloth when the Israelites moved throughout the wilderness. Some of the things you do today have ancient origins that you cannot disregard. How important is the color blue to you? I have a Masonic bible that was originally binded with a blue cloth. The first page in my Masonic bible says "The Bible and King Solomon's Temple in Masonry" by John Wesley Kelchner, last published in 1951.
Masonry has religious roots and you can't deny them.

I think the Templar Knights started this conspiracy we're discussing today.

Originally posted by lostinspace
The teachings of Albert Pike link Free Masonry with the Temple of Solomon.

This is a symbolic linking as any historical connection can not be proven.

The holy objects such as the Ark of the Covenant and the Lampstand were concealed in blue cloth when the Israelites moved throughout the wilderness. Some of the things you do today have ancient origins that you cannot disregard.

I do not think anyone is disregarding ancient origins, to the contrary, that is the purpose of this thread, to illustrate the ancient pedigree of certain symbols which people may associate only with Masonry.

Masonry has religious roots and you can't deny them.

Who is denying this? This is a thread about symbolism and not about the religious influence in Specualtive Masonry.

I think the Templar Knights started this conspiracy we're discussing today.

Which conspiracy are you refering to? The one being discussed in ths thread regarding emblems and symbols or the religious conspiracy you mentioned above? If it is indeed the one you put forth can you please demonstrate how it is involved in the topic we are discussing.

Originally posted by lostinspace
How important is the color blue to you?

Not at all. I think I may own 3 or 4 blue shirts, tops. I generally buy black jeans rather than blue denim. So I'll turn the question around, is blue any more important to YOU, a non-mason, than it is to me a mason? If blue isn't important to you, and it isn't important to me, can we agree that it's not significantly Masonic when used in a non-Masonic context? (And, so you know, when it IS used in a Masonic context, it represents "the canopy of Heaven". just to add to the codex of symbols this thread contains.)

Originally posted by lostinspace
How important is the color blue to you?

Remember that the terminology "blue Lodges" are limited to American lodges only. Outside of America, these are referred to as craft lodges.

Outside of America, the word blue is not even mentioned in any masonic context, and has no masonic significance whatsoever.

[edit on 12/3/2008 by Saurus]

To add to this symbolism thread rather than start a new one, can anybody here find any references that explicitly tie the "eye in the pyramid" graphic with "The Illuminati" that predate "The Illuminatus! Trilogy"? Don't go throwing around Great Seal == Masonic unless you can take the next step to Masonry == Illuminati convincingly. I know when Shea & Wilson were writing Illuminatus, they threw together all the conspiracy theories they could find into one, overarching piece of fiction. I also know that the eye/pyramid icon being tied to the Illuminati was furthered by Steve Jackson Games and their Illuminati and INWO games (among others). And having gotten a hold of much of the reference material I could find (Nesta Webster, Robinson, Darul, Wilgus, and a bunch of others), I don't think I can find any direct connection between the symbol and Weishaupt's group. Not saying a connection didn't exist before Shea/Wilson, but I haven't seen that connection made prior to them. If someone else can shed light on the matter, it would be appreciated.

[edit on 3/31/2008 by JoshNorton]

Originally posted by lostinspace
It sounds like to me that the Masons here today wish to not be a part of the Albert Pike sect.

Why would you say that? Brother Pike is one of most respected philosophers.

The teachings of Albert Pike link Free Masonry with the Temple of Solomon.

Actually, that's been around a lot longer than Pike. Masonic ritual is based around allegories concerning the Temple of Solomon, that much really has little to do with Pike.

so then what is a good masonic symbol?

reply to post by Dark_Ace


The Square and Compasses are the best symbols of Masonry in the way that they admonish us to square and circumscribe our actions as Masons. There are numerous others which, to the best of my knowledge, are used soley in Masonry such as The Three Steps and The Book of Constitutions Guarded by The Tyler's Sword.

For what it is worth, I think that something can safely be considered "Masonic" by anyone when it is used by Masons for viewing by Masons or when used to "advertise" that a Mason was here.

In my opinion placing a compass and square on your blue car does not make your blue car Masonic. However it does not mean that the compass and square that you placed on your car is not a Masonic symbol simply because its on a car and not in the lodge.

I will concede that the "All seeing eye" predates the more modern freemasons. However to answer the question why it is considered a Masonic symbol I would offer the following analogy.
when the VAST majority of people see the swastika what comes to mind? I would venture to guess Nazi Germany. Yes it is true that it was prevalent in Hindu religions and Nordic religions and likely other religions as well but when people see Swastikas they think Hitler. Why? Well this is just conjecture on my part and I really have not had time to research it fully but off the top of my head I would assume it is because Nazi's adopted the symbol as their own. Not terribly unlike freemasons adopted the "All seeing eye."

Not to add fuel to the fire but wasn't it Roosevelt who was a Freemason who insisted that the "All seeing eye" be put on the dollar bill? Back in the the 30's?





[edit on 8-4-2008 by sacerd]

Upon reading my last post again I feel that I must state that I do not think that the masons control the world, least I be misunderstood I am merely supplying an answer to the question proposed in subject line as best as I can articulate. It is worth noting that this Mason
www.calodges.org...

Seems to place a part of the problem on Masons themselves

"Conclusion,
It's hard to know what leads some to see Masonic conspiracies behind world events, but once that hypothesis is accepted, any jot and tittle can be misinterpreted as "evidence." The Great Seal of the United States is a classic example of such a misinterpretation, and some Masons are as guilty of the exaggeration as many anti-Masons."

Now, if there is an apparently, notable amount of Freemasons who don't know their own symbols and meanings, then how are the uninitiated supposed to know the symbols and meanings of a supposed Secret Society?

In the alternative I suppose one could make the argument that the "ignorant" Masons have deliberately mislead a part of the population, then that leads to the question of "Well were you lying then or are you lying now." Which as I understand it does not "square" with Masonic teachings, but then again I am not an initiate so what do I know?

Originally posted by sacerd
Not to add fuel to the fire but wasn't it Roosevelt who was a Freemason who insisted that the "All seeing eye" be put on the dollar bill? Back in the the 30's?

During the Roosevelt administration the Great Seal of the United States was added to the reverse of the one dollar bill in 1935. The Eye of Providence is only one part of the Great Seal and by the same logic one could further say, 'Wasn't it Roosevelt who ordered a branch with thirteen olive leaves be put on the dollar bill?'. Roosevelt's Masonic affiliation has nothing to do with the Eye of Providence's use in the Great Seal and he can only be credited with allowing its usage for the first time on United States currency.

The point that I am attempting to make is that there is indeed evidence...not proof mind you, but evidence that their are indeed "masonic symbols" on the one dollar bill, not unlike your blue car example, when a known mason places a symbol that has been "adopted" by the masons on an item, one could conceivably and not with out undue reason, come to the conclusion that the Mason in question is making their presence known as a mason on the item in question.
Now couple that with the fact some masons (Again my link above) claiming that the Freemasons as a whole deliberately "marked" the dollar bill with their "adopted" symbols I simply cant see a good reason to get angry at people for believing that the Masons "marked" the dollar bill, when the point of the square symbol in freemasonry is to represent "being square" in your dealings with others.
I liken it to getting mad at someone for assuming you have a blue car, even if they are told as much by your friends and associates.