The Social Taboo of Criticizing Radical Islam

Ashley,

Really. You've all been so silent about the horrors of radical islam... Give me a break here. You're trying to claim that there is a conspiracy making everyone be real quiet about Radical Islam. And I maintain my point that you're full of it, because there is NO silence about it, and certainly no conspiracy to silence it all. There's no shortage of people making their livings off the subject these days.

Now, the point i was making, regarding the bigotry, is that very rarely do such "critics" bother to note any difference between the radicals and normal muslims. Sites such as your "source" are dedicated to the principle of declaring all Muslims to be the same as the crazies, and placing the blame on the religion, and thus all who follow it (as I pointed out, even the "disclaimer" calls all Muslims completely ignorant of their religion. I wonder what your reaction to an anti-Christian site that said the same would be. Would you use it as source material?)

reply to post by Blaine91555


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Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by DemonicAngelZero

 

Excellent example. South Park has bashed Bush, Christianity, Scientology, Hinduism, celebrities, politics, what I call fifteen minutes of fame topics, illegal aliens, and. backwoods hicks. You name it, South Park has parodied it.

But Comedy Central drew the line at them showing a picture of Mohammad. So, to make a point, Stone and Parker showed scenes of Jesus and Bush. I remember that episode and it hits the irony back to home base.

But then they made a whole movie about the "durkadurka towelheads" didn't they?

It can also be taken as a jab in and of itself. Much like invisible Mohammed whupping Moses' butt on Carlos Mencia.

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
RCWJ,
All of them. Why? Because individuals do that stuff. Congratulations, you've proven my point. Both of them in fact. Not only to you sweep the freaks in your neck of the woods under the rug, but you try to portray the entirity of Islam as violent and extreme. I would suggest you try this thing called "research," maybe even speak to some of the Muslims on this message board about those issues - they're certainly more informed than I am... But I have a very secure feeling that you're not too eager to learn better.

Obviously you can't read to good, but you can sure toot your own horn. Not once did I encompass the ENTIRE Islam religion, or ANY religion. So get your facts straight on that before you speak.

As for research..I did mine...and just as I pointed out in my other responce, the things listed are things being done by the Islam RADICLES!!! Just like the Christian RADICLES who celebrate soldiers funerals and thank GOD for 9/11. But name me any chrsitian, catholic, lutheran, etc...who beheads in the name of GOD? Name me any other religion who straps bombs to their chest and kills themselves and others as an act of faith? As I stated before, and this goes back to your illiteracy or plain stupidy, I wrote that ALL religions have nutcases...but other religions use words, thoughts, protests, judgment, etc... to try and force their views.

Now to your other gripe. I have spoken to many Muslims about the religion of Islam. They...thats right THEY are appauled by the actions of their radical followers. Just as we christians are of our own screw loose members. So to assume I (a white, american, christian, ex-soldier, current law enforcement officer) wants nothing to do with Islam or it's people is a very thickheaded statement to make. A man's religion, just like his skin color doesn't establish what kind of human being he is, his ACTIONS do. To each his own when choosing a religion....

Originally posted by TheWalkingFox
Really. You've all been so silent about the horrors of radical islam...

Give me a break here. You're trying to claim that there is a conspiracy making everyone be real quiet about Radical Islam. And I maintain my point that you're full of it.

Yes, I am being outspoken about radical Islam. So are others on this thread. And what are we being told? We're full of it. We're ignorant. We're biased. We're lumping everyone together. We're bigots.

That is the social taboo of it all. Thank you.

Also. So, radical Islam seems to have two defense mechanisms to silence the critics. One method is passive and the other aggressive.

The critics can be silenced through violence in the East and through accusations of intolerance that are supposed to bring immediate shame in the very politically correct West.

Originally posted by rcwj75
Obviously you can't read to good, but you can sure toot your own horn. Not once did I encompass the ENTIRE Islam religion, or ANY religion. So get your facts straight on that before you speak.

"Name me another religion..."

Apparently I read better than you write. Sorry if you failed to realize your own phrasing and context. Innocent mistake? it's so hard to tell the difference between goof and lying on the internet.

As for research..I did mine...and just as I pointed out in my other responce, the things listed are things being done by the Islam RADICLES!!! Just like the Christian RADICLES who celebrate soldiers funerals and thank GOD for 9/11.

Radical, please. If you're going to all-caps. all caps with spelling. Not being a grammar nazi, but it hurts my eyes, is all.

Good, glad you realize that it's just some. I'll now assume "goof" in reference to what I said above.

But name me any chrsitian, catholic, lutheran, etc...who beheads in the name of GOD? Name me any other religion who straps bombs to their chest and kills themselves and others as an act of faith?

Is it "RADICLES" or is it the religion? Are you going to make up your mind?

As I stated before, and this goes back to your illiteracy or plain stupidy, I wrote that ALL religions have nutcases...but other religions use words, thoughts, protests, judgment, etc... to try and force their views.

...Well, in my, ah, "stupidy" (going to call me an "idoit" next? ) And no, there are violent extremists in all quarters. For Christianity, here's a list - probably not definitive, but it's what I found with a quick web search

Army of God
Christian Identity
Christian Patriots
Christian Phalangist Militia
Lambs of Christ
Guardians of the Cedars
National Socialist Council of Nagaland-Isak-Muivah
Real Irish Republican Army
Tsar Lazar Guard
White Eagles
God's Army
Ku Klux Klan
The Lord's Resistance Army
National Liberation Front of Tripura

There's also the case of Fabianus Tibo, Dominggus da Silva and Marianus Riwu in the Sulaweisi province of Indonesia, and the Christian riots their executions sparked. There were some beheadings on both sides, if you're interested.

Want me to look up what Hinduism has? Aum Shinrikyo can't be hte only violent Buddhist group out there. I'm sure I could drag some wotanist race-gangs up if you want to hear about violent Pagans, even - I know Greece has an anti-Albanian, anti-Turk movement of Hellene pagans. Small, but there.

ALL of these groups have killed many people, often in quite messy ways. They have led terror campaigns, preach extremist philosophies, and have no issues with doing any of this. Trying to argue that Muslim violent groups are "worse" or that, even more absurdly, only Muslims resort to violence, just highlights your negligent education.

Now to your other gripe. I have spoken to many Muslims about the religion of Islam. They...thats right THEY are appauled by the actions of their radical followers. Just as we christians are of our own screw loose members. So to assume I (a white, american, christian, ex-soldier, current law enforcement officer) wants nothing to do with Islam or it's people is a very thickheaded statement to make. A man's religion, just like his skin color doesn't establish what kind of human being he is, his ACTIONS do. To each his own when choosing a religion....

Well, you can't seem to make up your mind if it's Islam or the "RADICLES".

reply to post by AshleyD


Yes. You and damn near everyone else with access to writing or speaking medium is making a lot of noise on the subject. That's like, the opposite of silence.

I'm telling you you're full of it because you are saying there is silence. There's not. I'm pointing out that your "source" is as fine a hate site as jewwatch, and just as biased. You are not your sources, but given that you continue to lean on that one, singular source, I have to wonder.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Foxy, that is not a source verifying critics of Islam are being silenced nor did I ever claim it as such. It was (what I thought to obviously be) an example of someone being very outspoken about radical Islam only to be accused of being intolerant.

Those are real news stories of things that are actually happening in the world. Those stories need no spin because they are black and white in terms of factualness. Instead of defending the facts (which cannot be done by any sane person), one has to attack the web host for being biased.

Again, that is the social taboo. You cannot call a spade a spade in terms of Radical Islam without being deemed politically incorrect. The more you talk the more you are confirming my very thoughts on the subject.

I concur, Ashley, please provide examples of the "Silence..."

Maybe I speak a different dialect of English, and there's something of a language barrier here, but I hear quite a bit of talk about radicle Islam, especially on talk radio, and it's never been to defend it.

Besides that... Have we forgotten that--according to MSM, at least--we have gone to war in the Middle East to combat "radical Islam?" This conflict has claimed at LEAST 13,000 Iraqi citizens source. While these were not all "radicals," it was in response to the fanatics, and I can't think of a more blatant criticism than that.


I do not want to defend the fanatics, but I wonder how much of thier actions stems not so much from the religion itself, but from simple desperation.

Terrorism is NOT unique to Islam:

Christian car bombings

Christian terrorists in India

Christian Terrorist Murders Doctor

A little bit about the KKK using the Bible as justification:
atheism.about.com...

Then, alhtough it's less current, there were the Crusades...

The Inquisition...

The witch hunts...

The fact that Western misogeny came largely in the Midieval views that Eve caused the fall, so women were inferior. It's naive to think that echoes of this don't haunt present-day abuse cases: I've known men to cite this, or Bible verses naming them "head of the household" to justify thier own shortcomings.

I don't know of any christian sects that advocate covering up the face and eyes, but there are those such as Mennonites or Amish that cover the top of the head.

SO. My $.02.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by asmeone]

reply to post by asmeone


1) One really needs to look no further than the comments in this thread. But if you wish, then look at the stories taking place in the Middle East. If you want to take out the defense of "they're only lashing out at the American occupation," then look at the countries where we haven't stuck out nose. If you want to look at the West, then look at how politically incorrect it is to dare say something bad about it. Again, either through aggression or passivity, the critics are either killed or shunned due to social stigma and made out to be bigots.

2) Your history lesson of the crusades, inquisition, and witch trials: Nothing to do with the topic. It's not about the committing of atrocities. It is about people's right to freely and vocally criticize something without fear of social or physical repercussion. It is almost humorous how many people are pointing the fingers at other groups and their atrocities. The point is, we can rip those people to shreds while receiving a round of applause but if we say the exact same things in terms of criticizing Islam it's bigotry.

How is it that no one is understanding this? It's not about the atrocities. We can all agree such things are heinous regardless of who is committing them. It's about the stigma and outrage that follows the critics of Islam.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


wow..you got me good. Wonder why people have to sink to simple spelling mistakes to make themselves feel better about being a fool. I wish I knew...but it takes a unique kind to truly know! So if thats all you got...keep tryin.

Now to your failure to read again. You have written so much crap you can't remember what you wrote. You blamed me and others of blaming the ENTIRE Islam religion....which we did not do. We all are pointing out the extreme cases. And as I said before...there are extreme cases with every religion. You on the other hand cannot grasp that a religious faction may get divided into two groups. Those who understand their religion, what it means, what their asked to do and what rules they are to follow. Then there are those in that same religious group who lose track/site of the faith and go off to do things that aren't acceptable by the normal standard. But they are still doing those thigns in the name of GOD..and guess what..also in the name of their religion.

So they go hand and hand...I'm sorry you cannot understand this...and maybe it pisses you off for some reason...so be it. But its the way it is. I don't like the actions of my christian members who do things they shouldn't, but they are still doing it under the umbrella of christianity. Just like those are doing it under the releigion of Islam.

And by the way...over half the groups you listed didn't kill in the name of GOD...they killed and used the name of GOD as an excuse or way to gain sympathy/trust. Thats my take from researching those groups.

Whats all the discussion here for? Salman Rushdie wrote a book critisising Islam.

He now has to fear for his life for the rest of his life.

This wouldnt happen with any other religion nowdays.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Foxy, that is not a source verifying critics of Islam are being silenced nor did I ever claim it as such. It was (what I thought to obviously be) an example of someone being very outspoken about radical Islam only to be accused of being intolerant.

Those are real news stories of things that are actually happening in the world. Those stories need no spin because they are black and white in terms of factualness. Instead of defending the facts (which cannot be done by any sane person), one has to attack the web host for being biased.

Oh, cry me a EDIT river, Ashley. It's a hate site and you'd have to be pretty damn dim, or a pretty blatant liar to say otherwise. It makes no difference between radicals and moderates- the site's stated purpose is to indict Islam as a whole. It states that a "moderate muslim" is nothing but a dumbass who doesn't understand their religion.

It's not the news stories. It's the manner in which they are presented that's telling. It is, without a question, biased.

Again, that is the social taboo. You cannot call a spade a spade in terms of Radical Islam without being deemed politically incorrect. The more you talk the more you are confirming my very thoughts on the subject.

Anything other than total agreement with your assertion "proves your point" at least, to your way of thinking, Ashley. Let's break this down.

You start off with a logical fallacy - begging the question in this case. You tell us to assume that there is a blackout, a total silence of criticism of radical Islam. You provide absolutely nothing to back up this claim, and then try to tell us the reasons for it. Those reasons are, of course, liberals, political correctness, and fear of the radicals.

Of course you take the time to snivel about how mistreated Christians are by comparison, oh woe, woe is you.

You provide a "factual source" on Radical Islam. And it may be - but the site itself doesn't make any distinctions, and presents radical Islam as being normal islam, and Muslims as either being radical or idiots. You snivel some more when I point out that not only is the site biased (quick clue - unless it's raw data, it's biased, no matter what it is. Spock does not write the news)but that it's also bigoted in the fashion that it presents its material. Whine, sniffle, slouch.

Me pointing all this out to you is, of course, me "defending the radicals" according to other posters, and "supporting your argument" to you... I suppose it'll have to do, since you obviously can't find any other examples for what the hell you're talking about. You will not accept any statement that doesn't pat you on the back and tell you "good job!"

Funny how you like the blatant facts until they're presented against your... "case."

I'm not trying to shut you up. I'm trying to have you provide a damned argument in support of your "conspiracy" and explaining why I'm not sucking down thereligionofpeace.com's hogwash. As I said, it's just jewwatch for Muslims. Facts presented with bias and bigotry garnishes.



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[edit on 24/2/2008 by Sauron]

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by asmeone

 

1) One really needs to look no further than the comments in this thread. But if you wish, then look at the stories taking place in the Middle East. If you want to take out the defense of "they're only lashing out at the American occupation," then look at the countries where we haven't stuck out nose.

That makes me question how you define "stuck our nose."

Does that include foreign policy? Economic policies? Foreign aid? CIA coups?

If you want to look at the West, then look at how politically incorrect it is to dare say something bad about it. Again, either through aggression or passivity, the critics are either killed or shunned due to social stigma and made out to be bigots.

I'm not holding my breath, but can you give some SPECIFIC examples?

2) Your history lesson of the crusades, inquisition, and witch trials: Nothing to do with the topic.

Yes, plenty to do with the topic.

What I posted is relevant to the topic as a whole. You're flattering yourself if you think that I'm not going to take everyone else's responses into account when I post my own.

I was commenting on the dichotamy that "terrorism" and "radical" are terms applied almost exclusively when the atrocities, as you called them, are comitted by Muslims.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Foxy, I never said or implied there is a "total blackout" of criticism of Radical Islam. Not once. Go back and reread. Until you quit twisting what is being said there is nothing further to say to you. There are obviously people speaking out against it. However, those people are being silenced either through violence or peer pressure, depending on the part of the world where you live.

If no one was talking about it at all, then this thread wouldn't even exist. Get it?

[edit on 2/24/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by rcwj75
wow..you got me good. Wonder why people have to sink to simple spelling mistakes to make themselves feel better about being a fool. I wish I knew...but it takes a unique kind to truly know! So if thats all you got...keep tryin.

Well, the RADICLES were hurting my head. And the "Stupidy"... c'mon, that deserves a couple repeats. Internet rule of thumb, if you spell-check nothing else in your post, spell-check the part where you call someone a "stoped imgrorant moran idoit," you know?

Now to your failure to read again. You have written so much crap you can't remember what you wrote. You blamed me and others of blaming the ENTIRE Islam religion....which we did not do. We all are pointing out the extreme cases. And as I said before...there are extreme cases with every religion. You on the other hand cannot grasp that a religious faction may get divided into two groups. Those who understand their religion, what it means, what their asked to do and what rules they are to follow. Then there are those in that same religious group who lose track/site of the faith and go off to do things that aren't acceptable by the normal standard. But they are still doing those thigns in the name of GOD..and guess what..also in the name of their religion.

I repeat...

"Show me another religion..."

See, that's pretty damn all-inclusive. You're speaking of entire religions. Not this faction or that, not a collection of individuals, but the entire religion.

So they go hand and hand...I'm sorry you cannot understand this...and maybe it pisses you off for some reason...so be it. But its the way it is. I don't like the actions of my christian members who do things they shouldn't, but they are still doing it under the umbrella of christianity. Just like those are doing it under the releigion of Islam.

And the winner of the Stopped Clock award goes to...

And by the way...over half the groups you listed didn't kill in the name of GOD...they killed and used the name of GOD as an excuse or way to gain sympathy/trust. Thats my take from researching those groups.

This is different from Muslim extremists how, exactly? Your research must involve the backsides of matchbooks and bubblegum cards.

The issue is this: Islam was given a very public and very negative association as a consequence of 9/11. Any percieved /taboo/ is likely an attempt to prevent innocent people whom happen to identify with Islam from being the target of an unfair generalization. Take people for who they are rather than what you percieve based on absolutely no experience.


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reply to post by AshleyD


Well then. Prove it. Or since you're saying it's a conspiracy, at least back it up with something. This ain't the skunkworks

Salman Rushdie is still writing, isn't he? He's actually made more money since the fatwa against him - and in fact there are some pretty realistic accusations that he is milking it just for that (such as his claims that Iran sends him a yearly letter reminding him )

I haven't seen anyone silenced on this. Though I admit to wishing some crazy would tie Ann Coulter's Sylvester Stallone-looking jaw shut with a really well-tied hijab.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by TheWalkingFox]

Originally posted by asmeone
I'm not holding my breath, but can you give some SPECIFIC examples?

Look above at Sky Floating's comment and a few other examples posted throughout the thread. Or the dozens of news stories showing dissenters of Radical Islam (or sometimes Islam in itself) are killed for their opinion. I feel like you're asking me to provide evidence the world is round.

Yes, plenty to do with the topic.

Again, no it does not. We can agree that Radical Islam commits atrocities. We can agree that radical Christianity commits atrocities. We can agree certain governments commit atrocities. We can agree certain other religions throughout the past have committed atrocities. We can agree that atrocities during WWII were committed. Yes? Good. So what is the point of this thread? The fact that criticizing the acts of one is taboo and politically incorrect.

Originally posted by AshleyD
The fact that criticizing the acts of one is taboo and politically incorrect.

Except it's not. I don't know why you are obsessed with this idea - especially given your inability to back it up. But it's certainly not taboo. Hell, it's not even taboo in most circles to generalize all of Islam (or even all people in the Middle East!) by the actions of the radicals. Hell, here on ATS, we even have a few mods who encourage such, if you want to go for the microcosm angle.