Very Kewl of you to supply the links, Beach

I will avail myself to the info and have a better grip on what the muslim PTB are saying---- comparing whats being addressed as problems vis what muslims can do/are doing to resolve terrorist activities.

I would be seriously gratified to see muslim clerics proactive in their leadership against atrocities towards others of any religious belief.

I dont consider these extremists Islam.Look at all those lives they have killled for martyrdom.Islam doesn't allow killings,let alone mass killings.They are just misled bunches.and dangerous.making the world more complicated than it already is

Originally posted by Beachcoma

First of all let me say that due to my lack of technical expertise, (especially as I've just got in from the pub!), I will have to respond to one poster at a time, sorry.

....and as much as the Muslims in your country are to blame,

I don't see it as solely being "The Muslims" to blame, Non-Muslims have more than there share of the responsibility.
The difference is, a large proportion of Non-Muslims recognise that and are very public in their condemnation.

I've tried various approaches to make you understand that society is dynamic, fluid and organic. It's not just bits and pieces that are independent of one another. Each element interacts with the other and affects the actions and influences the mindset of one another. It's all about communication, by your words and actions.

I fully understand that and agree with you.
Contrary to popular belief, Britain is a very fluid society with constant movement, integration etc within all stata's of society.
It is far easier for "new money" to become part of the "elite" here than in the vast majority of European countries.
We have adopted, adapted and integrated the best of numerous societies and cultures throughout our long history.
We are very good at it.
But those cultures and societies have had to have had a willingness to be part of Britain and British society.
Unfortunately far too many Muslims come to Britain for "a better life", raise their standard of living, then proceed to tell us what is so wrong with British society.
They also choose to cling onto the vast majority of cultural and religious beliefs which preclude them from integrating into British society thus furthering their isolation and alienation.

In a way, my failure to communicate to you my points is like a microcosm of the problem you see.

You are communicating perfectly ok and I fully understand everything you are trying to say.
I just don't agree with some of it.
Doesn't make either of us bad people.
Doesn't make either of us stupid.
Just a difference of opinion.

I think essentially we both want the same end objective, we just disagree with how to get there.

In fear of repeating myself, the Middle East could learn a lot from the example and the process which Ireland has gone through.
At times we have to put the past behind us and take a leap of faith (?? from an agnostic??) and make a step change to move forward.


[edit on 29-2-2008 by Freeborn]

Originally posted by grover

This poster doesn't know what he's talking about.

Yes I do know what I'm talking about.
I just have a different opinion to you.

My opinion isn't just based on textbooks and religious dogma.
I converse and interact on a daily basis with Muslims.
Therefore, as well as having read The Koran, my opinion is based on real life situations.
Is yours?

As for The Islamic Brotherhood.
Talk to some budding terrorist from Dudley, Skipton or Bradford and they wuldn't have a scooby what you were talking about.

By the way Shirra law is supposed to apply only to the faithful, NOT to non-Muslims.

Is that why if I commit a crime in Saudi Arabia I get punished by their (Sharia) Law?

Why is it that some people persist in believing that any criticism of interpretatons of Islam is an attack on Muslims as a whole?
Grover you are much better than this.

this seems to happen all the time on ATS, a thread is started and it changes subject and goes off on random tangents.

first of all, I have lived with the Islamic disapora. I have studied the religon in and out. I am a credible source, Please take it from me ISLAM IS 100% EVIL. Every muslim, and I MEAN EVERY MUSLIM has been corrupted because of mohammed's teachings. HE WAS THE SCUM OF THE EARTH DURING HIS TIME. He married his sons 9 yr old daughter, he would rape children for questioning islam. IS THIS A RELIGON OF PEACE. If you say yes then I will ask you. Does allah love all his creation? If you say yes again then why do muslims refrain from pork, greeting Jews, hate americans. Do you see Christians beheading muslims. NO BECAUSE IT IS TRULY A RELIGON OF PEACE! Islam showes ignorance every where in the qur'an. I will not stand for hypocracy. IF ISLAM WILL NOT STAND FOR CRITICISM AGAINSED mohammed, THEN WHAT GIVES THEM THE POWER TO KILL "INFIDELS". No religon has ever in the history of time showed so much nieveness and ignorance. I DARE ANYONE TO PROVE ME WRONG. AMERICA WILL PAY A DEAR PRICE FOR OPENING JAM'ALS AND ISLAMIC CENTERS AROUND THE NATION. I am a loyal taxpayer and will not support terrorism in my own nation!

Originally posted by Ilu-Tak-Lak
He married his sons 9 yr old daughter, he would rape children for questioning islam.

I'm sorry, but if you were a "credible source" you would know that no, he didn't marry is son's 9 year old daughter. In fact, he didn't have any sons that survived into adulthood. As for raping children who question Islam ....well, I've never heard anything so absurd in my life.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Mo kindly recognised that she was too young to have sex with her so he satisfied himself by "thighing" her until he deemed her old enough...

You know, I've heard this a lot, but I've never seen the reference from where it came. Not calling you a liar or anything (please don't take it that way), but if you happen to know where it is from, could you please tell me?

Originally posted by Freeborn
I think it is also fair to point out that this was not neccesarily an uncommon thing in Arabic society at the time and so we are in the unfortunate business of judging the actions of yesterday by the morals of today.
Not good for reasoned arguement in my book, however, unfortunately I too am a product of my times and pedophilia is pedophilia and as such totally unaceptable, no matter how much spin anyone tries to wrap it up in.

The age of consent or even marriageable age in today's world greatly varies wherever you go (and I'm not just talking about muslim vs. the rest of the world). As far as I can see, it's a fairly arbitrary age limit- some places would call it 'pedophilia' if a 20 year old was going out with a 18 year old. As far as my personal opinion goes, as long as both persons have reached maturity, there isn't really any problem.

The problem here is that there is some text saying that Muhammad married a 6 year old and consumated a 9 year old, and there is other text saying that he didn't. To purposely take one point of view (even in the face of evidence of lack of credibility of the sources) and ignore the rest, just to have a "point" with which to malign someone (who you wish to malign perhaps because of insecurities in your own beliefs?) is a trifle silly.

Honestly, I don't see any trifling going on here.

Just some good, hard discussion of the facts.