HAS IT EVER REALLY BEEN TABOO THROUH HISTORY ?


Winston Churchill
Just a couple of good Winston Churchill quotes (hat tip: Islamophobic):
Freedom of Speech:
"Everyone is in favour of free speech," remarked Churchill. "Hardly a day passes without its being extolled. But some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like - but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."
Islam:
"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men."
"Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die. But the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytising faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science - the science against which it had vainly struggled - the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome."

Winston Churchill

A couple of pages ago Raze87 mentioned Muslims and English people. There isnt a country on this planet that isnt Muslim that can tell you more about Muslim People than England. Churchill knew a lot about them if not more than anybody in history. After WW2 who was it that divided up the ME into what it mostly is today. Was it not England that was in the ME for 20 to 30 years after the division of the ME doing exactly what America is doing now. I read a article a week ago on whatdoesitmean.com Princewilliams brother had a rare interview touching on this subject saying why didnt America talk to them about the Me before the war. They where experts on it after doing the same thing we did a long time ago have they changed since then? I was actually looking for a quote by Churchill saying how much good english blood are we going to loose in the ME before we get out of there.

Beachoma



Help me with this please since you are from the UK. Is what I read and posted about England controlling a majority of the ME after WW2 true? They where there for twenty or so years correct doing the same thing America is know doing in Iraq. I have also read that Churchill was a expert on Muslims. He wrote about them in his books quite a bit from what I understand.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Unfortunately, it is Muslims in the UK who choose not to integrate.

With all that ifs, buts, howevers and miscellaneous passing-the-buck, I'm not too surprised. I would say bugger it all myself if whatever I do I get blamed yet again.

This portion at the bottom of my post if the quote I postedand what makes it taboo to me. It means alot of things doesnt it. I am a 28 year old American who is a very curious person and like to learn new things. I have done some reading trying to understand Muslims and why they are what they are and do what they do. I am trying to understand what there religion does for the good of the world and tried to make it a topic either I did it wrong or I think it is maybe to taboo of a subject. Hmm. How does a religion benefit the world when it is so defensive you cant say anything about it because it would be taboo and incite hate and violence for saying the wrong thing. When does religion tell you to do unto others you wouldnt want done to you. Does any body wonder what they say to thier young girls in some of there strict nations. How do you tell your child you cant be anything in life but a servant to a man and nothing else. You are but a dowry,This is very baffling to me. I hope I am not getting to taboo I better stop being so curious.




Everyone is in favour of free speech," remarked Churchill. "Hardly a day passes without its being extolled. But some people's idea of it is that they are free to say what they like - but if anyone says anything back, that is an outrage."

Originally posted by goblue

How do you tell your child you cant be anything in life but a servant to a man and nothing else. You are but a dowry,This is very baffling to me. I hope I am not getting to taboo I better stop being so curious.

Because it's their culture.
It's all they know, after centuries of the practice it is engrained into them. Which is one of the reasons they react so strongly when people say it doesn't have to be like that.
Yes, it's abhorent to us but they, understanderbly, see it as an attack on the very fabric of their society.

Is there a Social Taboo of Criticizing Radical Islam

Yes.
In the media.
Within islam.
Outside islam.
Sounds like good ol' fear to me.

But not in the cloaked anonymity of the internet. Where the sword of Damocles doesn't hang over your head for speaking.

Once somebody takes on the bully in the schoolyard, it'll be exposed as the 10th century backwards cult it really is.
And then when lumped in with rest of the religions of the world... ready for some serious criticism from inside and out. Just like the rest of 'em(religions).

And until someone from inside islam speaks out against them, they are all radical AFAIC. Guilt by association, accessories to terrorism, clean their own house or someone sends for exterminators.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Your missing the point I think Beach,
I live here and see it every day.

Hell no. I see the point clearly. You've said the same thing repeatedly. I understand where you are coming from, and as much as the Muslims in your country are to blame, I see it as more of an immigration issue and how society is alienating the immigrants with finger-pointing. We have the same sort of integration issues in my country, but replace Pakistanis with Filipinos. Replace whatever other non-muslim immigrant in your country with Indonesians in mine. Not too long ago we used to pin all the problems in our country on Indonesian immigrants. We used the same arguments too, that the bulk of them didn't want to take responsibility for integrating. That method didn't work, as it pushed them further away from becoming part of society.

I've tried various approaches to make you understand that society is dynamic, fluid and organic. It's not just bits and pieces that are independent of one another. Each element interacts with the other and affects the actions and influences the mindset of one another. It's all about communication, by your words and actions.

Communication is transactional and reciprocal and if what you are doing now doesn't work, try something else. It takes two to tango and the meaning of your communication is the response you get. From the response I get of you, it seems that I have failed to communicate my point about the dynamics of society earlier. I hope to address that in this post.

In a way, my failure to communicate to you my points is like a microcosm of the problem you see. Failure to communicate is what is causing the integration and assimilation of immigrants. To put it all on the immigrants themselves is not the way forward. You have these people who come into your country and are not mixing in with society. Problem number one. Then you have the citizen of your country alienating these immigrants by blaming all (or most) of society's troubles on them. That's problem number two.

To solve this you have to look at both sides of the issue and amend the attitudes on both sides. Start a dialogue of understanding instead of both sides pointing the finger. (That is why I posted that link to the situation between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland) If one side isn't accepting their responsibility in the matter, how is the other side to accept theirs? If both sides do not want to understand where the other is coming from, how can dialogue even begin? It's a give and take process and it won't happen overnight.

Pinning the blame on all (or even "the vast majority" as you put it) is hardly productive. The end result isn't going to be perfect. There will still be some latent hostility and distrust (just like in my country, where there is residual distrust of Indonesians) but over time it will give way to full assimilation.

Edit to add: Basically what I'm saying is that an "us versus them" approach will never work. Start using a "we Britons" approach. By the way, do you have a Ministry of National Unity and Social Development there in the UK like we do here in Malaysia? If no, then maybe you should.

[edit on 29/2/2008 by Beachcoma]

Originally posted by Beachcoma


That is the apathy I'm talking about. It's the same with this issue (Muslims criticising the problems in their ranks). The sense of "sheet-metal, it's hopeless. People will continue believing what they want to despite evidence to the contrary. F it all."


[edit on 28/2/2008 by Beachcoma]

Absolutely! It is very frustrating though to see such ignorance in the face of tomes of evidence. However, when that ignorance affects others I think we have to speak up. This is why religious extremism (of any faith) is bad. Unfortunately for Islam their brand of extremism is very extreme and puts my childrens lives at risk, since there is no specific target for those extremists. Likewise I get agitated about global warming since its my children and grandchildren who have to live with the consequences of our actions.

So "F it all" is an understandable response to the ignorance at times BUT we can't let such ignornace win ..... can we?