The Social Taboo of Criticizing Radical Islam

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
"diaper headed savage"
"arab loony toons"
" crazy sand ______s"

But who really talks like that? Jr. High kids and adults that never grew-up. Actual sober, adult conversations never have language like that. I think what the OP is trying to say is that the P.C. thing to do is to not question Islam. I'm sure that on an individual level or when speaking to their friends, people will speak out against it. In public however, and espically if you're speaking for any government of public orgainization, speaking out aginst Islam is considered racist. As if race had anything to do with the topic. Islam is a religion yet it's nearly treated the same as an ethenic class.

reply to post by dbates


I agree with you there. It's not even like you're discussing religion but if you say Islam all of a sudden it's all Arabs.

I think the PC "eggshells" treatment of Islam is directly related to fear of terrorism. Even in the US.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by grover

 

Wow, I never expected that from you.
That's religious fascism, (or communism, take your pick)

Thats not exactly what I am saying, or trying to say.

Of course you are free to say anything you like about any religion but as for an honest critique (which is not the same thing as a criticism) you have to know what you are talking about, and when it comes to both a culture and/or a religion, unless you are immersed in it, anything that you would say would only be coming from an outsider.

A believer (or former believer) can offer a critique. An outsider can only offer a criticism.

Case in point... I have seen tons of posts on here about Islam and what the Quran says (or what it doesn't) from people who have no true knowledge about Islam or any idea about the context... which in the Quran is especially important... and almost each and every one is ill informed and wrong. Even I, who am well versed in other religions, only know what I have read... as opposed to DJ Messiah who is a practicing Muslim and can speak with authority about his faith.

It is that disconnect that I am talking about.

Information is what you read... knowledge is what you've lived.

[edit on 28-2-2008 by grover]

reply to post by dbates


Who talks like that? Lets see... Micheal Savage... Ann Coulter... and so many other of the right wing talk show fanatics, thats who.

Most of them make mush loosebowels seem well spoken and educated.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
you even repeatedly hear the refrain "why aren't moderates saying anything about it?" to justify such ignorance...and when you provide evidence of moderates speaking out, nobody pays attention (look for some of my threads, i have 2-5 threads about instances of moderates speaking out, i don't think any of them went into multiple pages)

True. And when there is other positive news going on, nobody even notices.
Turkey in Radical Revision of Islamic Texts.

Nobody cares. More fun to insult (albeit politely and with class) under the veil of discussion/concern.

Originally posted by Beachcoma


True. And when there is other positive news going on, nobody even notices.
Turkey in Radical Revision of Islamic Texts.

Nobody cares. More fun to insult (albeit politely and with class) under the veil of discussion/concern.

Quite true, Beachcoma, there's no news value in a positive story about Islam - although in fairness I did hear this story relatively widely reported on BBC radio news, for example.

But it seems to me this highlights 3 distinct strands of the question of whether there is a taboo and how it works.

1) The media obviously is one strand - the need to generate a news story will leap on negative actions and pretty much ignore positive ones. The Archbishop of Canterbury's recent speech, and I don't seek to debate its merits here - were reduced to the level of "Archbishop approves of hanging and torture" in tabloid reporting, for example.

2) Polictics reacts in whatever way is politically expedient - for example Bush and Brown will often be heard slating Taleban excesses, but you don't hear much about Saudi atrocities, appalling though they are.

3) The only strand that I don't think DOES have a taboo is society. I don't have a problem with "criticizing" radical islam among my friends, simply because we're all mature enough to see through the cynical politics and the sensationalist media approach. The taboo exists, to my mind, because political and media conventions have created one.

LW

reply to post by LoneWeasel


Aye. All your points are valid. However when I said 'nobody' I was referring to the people here on ATS, not media in general. Let's take your example Saudi atrocities/subterfuge. There have been many stories/articles posted here on ATS that have linked that country to terrorism and/or insurgent activities in Iraq. Hardly any response. (Example link for Ashley. Please, please, read up further on what I have pointed out earlier.)

Meanwhile in this thread you have people cheering, and when people who know of the situation in more detail puts in their two cents, it gets glazed over and the cheering goes on again. And that thread isn't even dealing with radicals.

Meh. Taboo my left nut. Deny ignorance? Please... deny inconvenient truths is more like it.

Originally posted by grover
Who talks like that? Lets see... Micheal Savage... Ann Coulter

Well, neither of them are "normal". They are like the drunken frat kids of the right-wing. They're entertaining and at times make good points, but half the time they're ranting in a drunken rage. I'm not putting either of those on any sort of pedestal.

Originally posted by Beachcoma
True. And when there is other positive news going on, nobody even notices.
Turkey in Radical Revision of Islamic Texts.

Nobody cares. More fun to insult (albeit politely and with class) under the veil of discussion/concern.

You mean like this:

February 26, 2008

Islamic scholars condemn terror at sect summit

Terrorism has been declared un-Islamic by scholars at a Wahabi madrassa, which some believe inspired the Taleban, according to a senior cleric.

In a declaration, as many as 20,000 leaders representing different sects of Islam also called on the Indian Government to ensure that Muslims were not harassed in the name of terrorism, Maulana Shaukat said. He was speaking from the 150-year-old Darul Uloom Deoband madrassa at Saharanpur in Uttar Pradesh, northern India.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

or this:

February 24, 2008

Muslim leaders issue letter to improve relations with Jewish communityRuth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent of The Times

Muslim leaders from around the world will tomorrow issue a statement to the world's Jewish Community in "a call for positive and constructive action that aims to improve Muslim - Jewish relations."

In the letter, which has emerged from the Muslim-Jewish study centre at the Woolf Institute of Abrahamic Faiths in Cambridge, Muslim scholars admit: "Many Jews and Muslims today stand apart from each other due to feelings of anger, which in some parts of the world, translate into violence.

www.timesonline.co.uk...

These attract minimal space in the news coverage, but the sentencing of the 'islamist terror gang' is all over the place. I do wonder what people want. Obviously some do think there is a taboo, so what is this supposed taboo stopping them do?

If they want to discuss the nature and causes of radical islam and the terrorism it is underpinning, I don't think anyone will stop them. If they want to suggest the whole of islam is a terror organisation, or that moderate muslims are those that just want to kill jews, then I guess they will attract criticism. I would feel a form of taboo from saying these things - the taboo of saying stupid things and looking like an eejit.

reply to post by melatonin


Some of the talkbacks/comments in those links you provided are very fascinating. Along the lines of 'IT'S A LIE!'

And people wonder why a lot of Muslims (like on ATS for example) don't even bother.

reply to post by madnessinmysoul


Thanks for joining us MIMS. The thing is, the examples you mentioned would be considered by any normal person to be offensive. Just like the 'n word' or a CEO referring to his secretary as a 'broad.' Of course such behavior is 'taboo.' Since you said you haven't read all 17 pages (and of course I cannot blame you) you missed a lot of other things that were discussed.

It goes farther than simply referring to Muslims 'towel heads.' Throughout the thread examples have been brought up of people losing their jobs for associating Islam with terrorism, suffering violent backlash or even being killed for speaking out against Islam, and various forms of censorship in the media and education about putting Islam in a negative light, even if it is completely truthful.

reply to post by Beachcoma


Beachcoma: I agree. That is why you will hardly ever hear me say anything about the silence from Moderate Muslims. It simply isn't 'newsworthy' and won't grab the headlines so it is ignored for the most part. There are moderate Muslim groups that speak out against radical Islam. Sadly, in the Middle East many are killed for doing so. In the West, they are silenced by the media for reasons explained above.

I don't think anyone has said that there isn't an element of criticism of Islamic extremism from within Islam itself.
But it is hardly a resounding condemnation is it.
One swallow doesn't make a summer.

As I have posted repeatedly; until Muslims accept some form of collective responsibility for the part they have played in this then we will resolve nothing.

Heh, what an interpretation if I read it correctly.

So, the reason we don't hear so much in western media about the moderate muslims speaking out (a positive view of islam), is because of threats from radical islam. But there is a taboo that stops putting islam in a negative light, although I could read pages and pages about the 'islamist terror group' in the UK papers, but only find a little mention of the positive news of muslims speaking out. This is evidence of a taboo.

Oh my!

Time to abandon thread. Cheers.

ABE: And I think there is another similar study, but I'm not too sure:

A "torrent" of negative stories has been revealed by a study of the portrayal of Muslims and Islam in the media, according to a report published yesterday.

Research into one week's news coverage showed that 91% of articles in national newspapers about Muslims were negative. The London mayor, Ken Livingstone, who commissioned the study, said the findings were a "damning indictment" of the media and urged editors and programme makers to review the way they portray Muslims.

"The overall picture presented by the media is that Islam is profoundly different from and a threat to the west," he said. "There is a scale of imbalance which no fair-minded person would think is right." Only 4% of the 352 articles studied were positive, he said.

Linky

The social taboo is that pervasive it is leading to an overwhelming number of negative articles in the UK media. I'm sure the fact that Livingstone is asking for a more balanced view will now be used as evidence of a taboo, rofl.

But this isn't the post you want, move along...

[edit on 28-2-2008 by melatonin]

reply to post by Freeborn


How can there be collective responsibility when there is no collective, the idea of an international Umah is a fabrication and only exists in the fantastical imaginations of the very extremists who you wish condemned.

There is no group or individual that could act as representative of the entire Muslim faith, well maybe Muhammed but hes not been around for quite a while. In the same way there has never been a collective apology or condemnation of, for example, the killing of doctors who work in abortion clinics by "christian extremists". When in Turkey I asked someone what different forms of Islam did people follow, the man replied "the deeper you dig, the more worms you find". The idea of a universal Islam is a very thin veneer.

reply to post by Freeborn

As I have posted repeatedly; until Muslims accept some form of collective responsibility for the part they have played in this then we will resolve nothing.

That's never gona happen! There are not many liberal minded Muslims out there to tackle radicalism.

My muslims freind has told me that ultimately Islam will rise when the Sharia law is applied in every Islamic state and all the nations combine and have one leader (khalifa).Thats means it will have one hell of an Islamic army carrying black flags (Salahudeen style) taking back Jerusalem.

And he was born/bred in UK!

reply to post by tarichar


OK, I understand that but we have large Muslim communities in several large urban population centres here in the UK and we hear very little condemnation of Muslim extremists.
Yes, we do hear some minor criticism but in general the silence is quite deafening from these communities.

Just as Christianity, (which has literally hundreds of denominations), has a collective responsibility for it's part, as does Judaism, as do various individual countries and states well so does Islam.
Unfortunately the stock response from the vast majority of Muslims is to blame someone else without examining themselves.

reply to post by Attari


Attari,
As i have stated time and time again on ATS; that will never happen.
There will be a bloodbath here in Britain well before we get that far.
Sharia Law will never rule in the UK.
Despite their vocalism, Muslims are still very much a small minority here, only 2.7% of the population.
Let's hope thing's never get that bad though.

Originally posted by Freeborn
I don't think anyone has said that there isn't an element of criticism of Islamic extremism from within Islam itself.
But it is hardly a resounding condemnation is it.
One swallow doesn't make a summer.

As I have posted repeatedly; until Muslims accept some form of collective responsibility for the part they have played in this then we will resolve nothing.

Freeborn, it's exactly this sort of responses from non-Muslims that make most Muslims figure, "why bother?". I mean look at the talkbacks in the news links melatonin posted earlier. Though it is not verbatim et literatim to what you posted, the sentiments are the same.

Originally posted by Freeborn
Unfortunately the stock response from the vast majority of Muslims is to blame someone else without examining themselves.

You'll find that this is the stock response for the vast majority of anyone from any denomination or position. Just read the threads around here for a wide variety of subjects from religion to science, from politics to social issues.

"Climate change? It's those SUVs!"
"Immigrants? It's those damned liberals!"
"Gun-totting rampaging school kids? It's those damned meds!"

And so on and so forth...

Blame everything else is the norm for everyone. It isn't specific to any one group.

reply to post by Beachcoma


Why is that exactly the response that make's Muslims think "why bother".

Because it makes them feel uneasy at their compliance, at their apathy or is it their fear to speak out against these people or is it because deep down they have a grudging admiration or are in agreement with them?

No matter how uncomfortable it is, the fact remains; the vast majority of Muslims refuse to speak out against these extremists.

I accept that some do, and I admire their bravery.
The risk of retribution from within their own communities can be great.

(Hundreds of) Thousands of people in the West speak out against the actions of Bliar and Bush because they disagree with them.
I don't see the same level of response from Muslims.

reply to post by Freeborn


This is something we may agree upon, there is a significant lack of self-reflection with Islam. A large degree of current waves of hate towards the west are due to the humiliation felt after the collapse of the Ottoman empire. There is a real need for a more positive revolution of Islam, such as with the current Turkish re-interpretation of the Hadith. There are many scholars and groups who do condemn terrorism, but as I have mentioned previously it is rarely deemed "newsworthy". Due to the fragmented nature of Islam when such condemnations occur they are only by small groups. If you are interested by how Islam is attempting a reformation into the 21st century try "Western Muslims and the Future of Islam" by Tariq Ramadan or "Progressive Muslims" by Omid Safi. Perhaps what is needed is some sort of single issue pressure group like "Muslims Against Terrorism". However, then you have the very difficult issue of defining terrorism.