it was just a bad dream, but it probably meant something to me at the time...what, I don't know because I can't remember enough about my life
at the time to make the connection. But I think I had just been watching too much television...lol. I'm just a little younger and televisions was a
novelty NOT to be ignored when I was that age.
If you are younger than me it is of no consequence since wisdom has no 'best after' date.
Wisdom and understanding of complex issues are more
likely to be clouded by experience rather than clarified, imo. 'Out of the mouths of babes' is no mere saying because there is much truth in it. It
doesn't matter a whit to me that you may be younger or older, but it does
matter what you think, in particular those things which you feel are
BTW, I saw my first television at around the age of seven, in the early 50's. I believe I have been just as influenced by the medium, if not actually
more since I've been watching it longer than you.
God says he knew us before we were born. Also, Christianity believes that when we die we go "home" to be with God. Going back home would
imply that we left home for some reason. Haven't figured out why that is yet, unless maybe we were kicked out...lol...and for that I couldn't quite
blame him. We are a funny lot.
In this quote, there are a number of issues being presented which need discussing;
-If "God knew us before we were born", it follows that after we were born, God no longer knows us
-If "Christianity believes that when we die we go 'home'", it also follows that we are returned to God's presence after death then we had been
lost to God
in our lifetimes.
IMO, God never
leaves us. God knows us before we are born, stays with us during our lifetime and is still with us after we die. This is because
God is a part of us. We are at all times
inseparable from God. We are a "funny lot", as you say, but this is because we have been cut
from God and can no longer listen to what God is saying (because religions
needed to become the intermediaries. They, the Churches,
require seperation from that connection which still exists between mankind and God. We have been hoodwinked by those who would prosper by 'selling'
that re-connection back to you.
God said he created us in his image...and you are correct that many have rather tried to fit themselves into the image of God. However, Jesus
did say that "if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". But I think this means we have seen his behavior and this behavior gives us a model to
follow. I am a Christian, but I do try not to push my beliefs on anyone that doesn't have an interest.
That you are a Christian is very important. It means that you believe God to be as real as I do (another thing we have in common, besides being artsy
and off the wall). No-one will EVER convince me that there is no God. The same can be said of Jung.
We also agree that many would place themselves in a 'higher position' with God; kings and queens, popes and parsons, believers who surmise they are
'closer to God' than their neighbours. This is the greatest deceit of them all. But as you have pointed out, "Jesus did say that if you have seen
me, you have seen the Father". A perfect example that God does not differentiate between people or religions. Jesus, being the 'Son of God' would
know that to be the truth. However, as with all things religious, it is open to interpretations;
Jesus is God in a mortal human form and to see Jesus is to see the Father, but is it the individual person in Jesus
or is it the
where we can see God? In my opinion, since God is everything in the universe, then God is in all forms
, including the
mortal human form.
I simply say what I believe and why, when asked. That is one reason I dislike the "athiests against Christian" threads even though I seem to
be drawn to them out of interest, and sometimes find I have input. But I digress...I do believe God is more of a spirit form of consciousness. It is
possible that our spirits are our consiousness or unconsciousness. I have read where individuals who have NDE's see their lives pass before them very
quickly. Could this be a sort of "download" of our mortal life memories into our new spirit being at death?
You won't see me arguing in "athiests against Christian" debates either, since I believe them both to be wrong. Atheists, because they don't
believe and Christians, because they believe in what is the truth as I see it, but place God outside of themselves, accessable only through Church and
I have had an NDE when I was in my early 20's, and saw myself seperated from my body. It was NOT a pleasant experience and frightened me. To find
myself floating above my body was unexpected and VERY disconcerting. The shock of that predicament slammed me back into my body immediately. Today, I
think perhaps I failed a 'great test' at that moment and since then have dedicated a great deal of time, through meditation techniques, to duplicate
that event. Regardless, the release from my body only solidified my belief in the soul and in God.
I did NOT see my "life pass before" me. In the split second where I realized that my body was lying below, only shock registered to my mind. Maybe I
wasn't 'ready' yet and the flood of memories still await at the moment of my true mortal death. Perhaps that 'download' you speak of is what I
will carry into the afterlife to be read and considered, weighed and measured as a final accounting of the life I have lived. Hopefully the positives
will outweigh my many sins.
I do agree that God is everywhere, in everything and to a certain extent, in everyone. The amount of God a person holds could be related to
his/her openness to him. The Bible, therefore, would give us instruction for how to obtain more God. Having more God would make us more God-like.
Here is one point I disagree with you on.
There is never a 'level' of God in us. There is only a 'gradient' of our acceptance of God in us. If we believe that God is not within us, but in
some faraway place and that we really need to get help in order to 'reach' God, then we have already decided that God is remote and difficult to
reach. why should God be anywhere else? Is God not everywhere at once? Omnipresent? If God is ominipresent then he is everywhere completely, including
your mortal self.
It is exactly that seperation which is being promoted by those who would wish to be your 'lifeline' to God. God sees the little sparrow fall, so why
wouldn't God see you? There is no such thing as 'more or less Godlike', there are only those people who wish
you to believe that in order to
part you from your money and your time.
...and I see we can agree to disagree about our differing beliefs in our God.
Thank you for the courage to disagree. Without debate, this thread would be useless and we would have absolutely nothing to say to each other,
wouldn't we? These differences in opinion are what prompt us to think. I don't want to talk you into agreeing with anything I say, but prefer that
you think about what others say as much as what we say will force others to think. A closed mind is NOT a beautiful thing, it's really a travesty of
nature. Dogma stifles us and requires absolute compliance. The meaning of the word 'heretic' can be explained as 'one who, even though baptised
into a religion, nevertheless think for themselves'. I was baptised into Calvinism as a baby, before I had any opportunity to think for myself. Now,
because of that, I must wear the label of heretic. Thank God I can't be murdered for the crime right now, but I'm sure if some had their way, I'd
be torn to shreds and fed to the pigs.
*does the happy heretic dance singing, "neener neener neener"*
I believe that these discussions in a "quiet" way are worthy of pursuit.
I have more to add in the following post. Hope I'm not boring you.
Truly worthy and, no, instead of bored, I am VERY grateful that someone
is willing to discuss these things.
Well, I obviously messed up my quotes, but I think you'll figure it out.
I'm a moderator here, as you know, and I could 'fix' your quotes myself. However, that would not be morally right for me to do. Just keep on trying
different things and it will eventually become easier. Perhaps if another moderator were to note your mistakes, they could make some edits to clear
out the BB Code mistakes. I know which words are mine and which are yours, but I'm concerned for the hundreds of others that may become confused as
they read this thread. Any other mods out there reading?
I wanted to ask you if you ever had dreams that didn't involve yourself in the dream. You answered that question when you spoke of the dream
you had when you were 5.
Jung said that all persons in your dreams are just different facets of your own personality.
This would, of course, destroy the idea that the child in my dream, who was the inspiration to 'set' my belief in re-incarnation. On the other hand,
if God is in all of us, then it could be said that the soul of the child who died 'imprinted' itself into me.
Fritz Perl, a psychologist, talked about this and called it part of a wider understanding; Gestalt Psychology
Whatever manifests in your dreams is always about you, and you alone
. A child in your dream could represent a moment in your life when you felt
belittled or childish, or it could be a moment when you were a child and felt 'adult' in some way. Interpretations are always multiple... there is
no one answer that can come from outside of yourself. The best way forward is to look at all the options of what the images in your dream could
and then accept the one that feels most right to you
yourself. Like searching for God, you need to look 'inside', not outside. A
psychologist trying to interpret your dream symbols will ask questions rather than feed you their own interpretations. They can only suggest your
I also have dreams where I feel as if I'm watching a movie. Other people are the subjects of the dream and I am watching everything take place
like an observer. I had one such dream last night...and it was so real I had to wonder if I had not entered another dimension. However, I know I
didn't because the subjects in the dream were two actors who have appeared in a movie together. And the dream...it was just so real...just like I was
with them while everything was happening, but I never saw myself. Usually in my dreams, I am the subject. But more and more lately, I've had these
dreams where I am not involved at all.
The two actors... were they opposing each other or working together in the movie? What sex were they? What was the last thing they were doing and what
preceded that? What was the location of the 'set' in the movie? When did the action in the movie take place... was it now, the future or the past?
WAS it another dimension?
All of those things are still in your memory, even if you don't or can't remember them.
Here's a tip. Keep a notepad close by your couch or bedside (whenever you're going to nap or sleep) and, when you awake, immediately write down the
last thing that happened in your dream. Usually this is the easiest bit to remember and, as you write down that 'last thing', it may then prompt
even more memories to come forward. The first time you try this might bring out very little, but out of the next dream you might remember a fraction
more. As you start to acculumulate a record of your dreams, you'll find it becoming easier to remember more of each one you have.
Your input would be greatly appreciated.
I can only make guesses, but those guesses can either make sense or be complete drivel to you. It's up to you to figure out whatever DOES make sense
and that, then, will likely be the true meaning behind the images of your dreams.