Jungian Dream Analysis: Roots of Religion and How the Unconscious 'Sees' Our Personal Future.

If you are younger than me it is of no consequence since wisdom has no 'best after' date. Wisdom and understanding of complex issues are more likely to be clouded by experience rather than clarified, imo. 'Out of the mouths of babes' is no mere saying because there is much truth in it. It doesn't matter a whit to me that you may be younger or older, but it does matter what you think, in particular those things which you feel are heartfelt.

BTW, I saw my first television at around the age of seven, in the early 50's. I believe I have been just as influenced by the medium, if not actually more since I've been watching it longer than you.



In this quote, there are a number of issues being presented which need discussing;

-If "God knew us before we were born", it follows that after we were born, God no longer knows us.

-If "Christianity believes that when we die we go 'home'", it also follows that we are returned to God's presence after death then we had been lost to God in our lifetimes.

IMO, God never leaves us. God knows us before we are born, stays with us during our lifetime and is still with us after we die. This is because God is a part of us. We are at all times inseparable from God. We are a "funny lot", as you say, but this is because we have been cut off from God and can no longer listen to what God is saying (because religions needed to become the intermediaries. They, the Churches, require seperation from that connection which still exists between mankind and God. We have been hoodwinked by those who would prosper by 'selling' that re-connection back to you.



That you are a Christian is very important. It means that you believe God to be as real as I do (another thing we have in common, besides being artsy and off the wall). No-one will EVER convince me that there is no God. The same can be said of Jung.

We also agree that many would place themselves in a 'higher position' with God; kings and queens, popes and parsons, believers who surmise they are 'closer to God' than their neighbours. This is the greatest deceit of them all. But as you have pointed out, "Jesus did say that if you have seen me, you have seen the Father". A perfect example that God does not differentiate between people or religions. Jesus, being the 'Son of God' would know that to be the truth. However, as with all things religious, it is open to interpretations;

Jesus is God in a mortal human form and to see Jesus is to see the Father, but is it the individual person in Jesus or is it the mortal form where we can see God? In my opinion, since God is everything in the universe, then God is in all forms, including the mortal human form.




You won't see me arguing in "athiests against Christian" debates either, since I believe them both to be wrong. Atheists, because they don't believe and Christians, because they believe in what is the truth as I see it, but place God outside of themselves, accessable only through Church and Bible.

I have had an NDE when I was in my early 20's, and saw myself seperated from my body. It was NOT a pleasant experience and frightened me. To find myself floating above my body was unexpected and VERY disconcerting. The shock of that predicament slammed me back into my body immediately. Today, I think perhaps I failed a 'great test' at that moment and since then have dedicated a great deal of time, through meditation techniques, to duplicate that event. Regardless, the release from my body only solidified my belief in the soul and in God.

I did NOT see my "life pass before" me. In the split second where I realized that my body was lying below, only shock registered to my mind. Maybe I wasn't 'ready' yet and the flood of memories still await at the moment of my true mortal death. Perhaps that 'download' you speak of is what I will carry into the afterlife to be read and considered, weighed and measured as a final accounting of the life I have lived. Hopefully the positives will outweigh my many sins.



Here is one point I disagree with you on.

There is never a 'level' of God in us. There is only a 'gradient' of our acceptance of God in us. If we believe that God is not within us, but in some faraway place and that we really need to get help in order to 'reach' God, then we have already decided that God is remote and difficult to reach. why should God be anywhere else? Is God not everywhere at once? Omnipresent? If God is ominipresent then he is everywhere completely, including your mortal self.

It is exactly that seperation which is being promoted by those who would wish to be your 'lifeline' to God. God sees the little sparrow fall, so why wouldn't God see you? There is no such thing as 'more or less Godlike', there are only those people who wish you to believe that in order to part you from your money and your time.



Thank you for the courage to disagree. Without debate, this thread would be useless and we would have absolutely nothing to say to each other, wouldn't we? These differences in opinion are what prompt us to think. I don't want to talk you into agreeing with anything I say, but prefer that you think about what others say as much as what we say will force others to think. A closed mind is NOT a beautiful thing, it's really a travesty of nature. Dogma stifles us and requires absolute compliance. The meaning of the word 'heretic' can be explained as 'one who, even though baptised into a religion, nevertheless think for themselves'. I was baptised into Calvinism as a baby, before I had any opportunity to think for myself. Now, because of that, I must wear the label of heretic. Thank God I can't be murdered for the crime right now, but I'm sure if some had their way, I'd be torn to shreds and fed to the pigs.



*does the happy heretic dance singing, "neener neener neener"*



Truly worthy and, no, instead of bored, I am VERY grateful that someone is willing to discuss these things.




I'm a moderator here, as you know, and I could 'fix' your quotes myself. However, that would not be morally right for me to do. Just keep on trying different things and it will eventually become easier. Perhaps if another moderator were to note your mistakes, they could make some edits to clear out the BB Code mistakes. I know which words are mine and which are yours, but I'm concerned for the hundreds of others that may become confused as they read this thread. Any other mods out there reading?



Jung said that all persons in your dreams are just different facets of your own personality.

This would, of course, destroy the idea that the child in my dream, who was the inspiration to 'set' my belief in re-incarnation. On the other hand, if God is in all of us, then it could be said that the soul of the child who died 'imprinted' itself into me.

Fritz Perl, a psychologist, talked about this and called it part of a wider understanding; Gestalt Psychology.

Whatever manifests in your dreams is always about you, and you alone. A child in your dream could represent a moment in your life when you felt belittled or childish, or it could be a moment when you were a child and felt 'adult' in some way. Interpretations are always multiple... there is no one answer that can come from outside of yourself. The best way forward is to look at all the options of what the images in your dream could mean and then accept the one that feels most right to you yourself. Like searching for God, you need to look 'inside', not outside. A psychologist trying to interpret your dream symbols will ask questions rather than feed you their own interpretations. They can only suggest your options.



The two actors... were they opposing each other or working together in the movie? What sex were they? What was the last thing they were doing and what preceded that? What was the location of the 'set' in the movie? When did the action in the movie take place... was it now, the future or the past? WAS it another dimension?

All of those things are still in your memory, even if you don't or can't remember them.

Here's a tip. Keep a notepad close by your couch or bedside (whenever you're going to nap or sleep) and, when you awake, immediately write down the last thing that happened in your dream. Usually this is the easiest bit to remember and, as you write down that 'last thing', it may then prompt even more memories to come forward. The first time you try this might bring out very little, but out of the next dream you might remember a fraction more. As you start to acculumulate a record of your dreams, you'll find it becoming easier to remember more of each one you have.



I can only make guesses, but those guesses can either make sense or be complete drivel to you. It's up to you to figure out whatever DOES make sense and that, then, will likely be the true meaning behind the images of your dreams.

Jung and his final words on the idea of karma and re-incarnation...



I'm glad CG Jung left that portal open for some justification to that belief within my own experience

Since this thread has advanced to page 2, I think it's a good idea to once again give proper credit to the books quoted.

So far, they are;

MAN AND HIS SYMBOLS (Part 1: Approaching the Unconscious, by CG Jung) and other chapters by ML von Franz, JL Henderson, J jacobi and A Jaffe, published by Dell [Copyright 1964 Aldus Books, Limited, London (ISBN: 0-440-35183-5)

Memories, Dreams, Reflections by CG Jung published by Vintage Books, Random House, New York

Psychology and Alchemy by CG Jung, Bollington Press / Princeton (second edition) ISBN 0-691-09771-2




[edit on 29/2/08 by masqua]

I am going backwards because I went back and re-read the thread and found things I had missed (or that didn't gel with me at the time). Let me try this "quoting" thing again. I'm not really very good with computers (you know, it's the artsy thing), so bear with me as I give it another go.




Actually I don't think we're very far apart in our thinking. I can see what you mean about the unconsiousness being our guardian angel. As you probably know, because I can tell you've studied the bible as well as other religions, in Christianity, the guardian angels are spirit beings responsible for guarding individuals as well as cities, countries, the four corners of the earth, etc. I personally have my own beliefs (I am a Christian) but follow my own path and do not belong to any particular denomination, although I was raised Baptist.

The opinion or belief (not sure what to call it...can't think of a good word) you put forth is a more non-literal interpretation. I do believe many parts of the bible are meant to be allegorical, and here I think you may have hit upon something. I, for one, do not believe in the literal 7 day creation, for example, but rather the creation event described there was meant to explain more the order of creation than the actual time involved.

Yes, I believe God talks to us in our dreams. I do believe there are different kinds of dreams and that visions are one of them. I have always been a very active dreamer and have always felt they meant something, although I'm still on a search for the answer. Your post has ignited a good fire under me.

WOW! I did it. I quoted. Ruh row, watch out, now there's more to come from me!



[edit on 24/2/08 by masqua] wow:

[edit on 2/29/2008 by idle_rocker]



[edit on 29-2-2008 by Duzey]

reply to post by idle_rocker

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Thank you Duzey for fixing my errant quotes

I don't believe Christianity today is what it was in the early days...an obvious observation I think. God is everywhere indeed, our Creator, and Jesus is a way of understanding and reaching for our Creator. You are correct that religion has become money-grubbing and power-grabbing. But as I say, it's not what it was meant to be. Jesus said to be with people of like minds for support, not to build huge buildings where the powerful elite can gather to pray for more materialism. However, there are still many good and true Christians in these churches.

Of course the early Christians could not meet in public because of persecution, but I believe the way they worshipped, together in one another's homes should still be practiced today. And that worship does not have to be a well-planned order, but rather each individual helping each other understand the deeper things of life, and to aid each other in the management of their day-to-day problems. I yearn for a church like this.

Yes there is some good to be obtained.

Um, I'm not quite sure it's God that is the commodity. It may be something different. However, I don't want to belittle the true, well-meaning churches that do exist.



Don't you just hate that? Another money-grubbing institution.

edit for punctuation


[edit on 24/2/08 by masqua]

Now that I realize I have gotten this thread way off its original track, I'll go now. Thanks for letting me post.

Come back anytime, I_R, discussing God in a thread about the roots of religion is hardly off topic.

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Awoke at 4:44 AM (normal time for me). The dream as I remember it upon awakening:

( working backwards )

I am looking at a globe and focussed on the North Pole. The entire globe is white. I am thinking "this is wrong, the features are too big."

The features (all etched in black upon white) which look wrong are several rectangles like swimming pools. I determine the globe is a poor representation because;

- no swimming pools could be so large as to cover an area the size of Ireland

-no swimming pools would be at the North Pole

There is a very large feature, like a huge mountain range, crescent shaped, to the left of the swimming pools. I am aware that this could have been the result of a large collision with another heavenly body. I am not concerned and only slightly interested in the feature.

I am walking out of a familiar room, singing. There are 3 others present at this moment; my very close astronomer friend, a stranger I did not know, myself and also myself as the observer. (I watched as I left the room)

My good friend has borought out a small device, connected by wire, and laid it upon the floor. He said, excitedly, "It's working", whereupon I was prompted to sing. The device did not work, though.

This is all I remember for now.

Starred for being close to the truth, even though you relied heavily on someone else's words to back up your claim.

I don't think i've seen anyone get so close - asides from myself, of course.


It is generally acknowledged after all that the dreams you have as a child have the potential to shape your future.

This is simply the other way round - like Fate over Faith, or Faith over Fate.

I suppose a simple way of explaining it would be to ask;

"What are you going to do next?"

This simple question, when approached with the proper perception, yields a veritable hoarde of information for a open and thoughtful mind.

For those of you wondering as to what the proper perception is - consider the possibilities, and ask yourself what the most likely one is.

Now, if you're like me - you'll probably be thinking "Roll a joint" or "press reply", but in reality the possibilities are seemingly endless, for example; i could decide to finish this post standing on my head and typing with my nose (if i possessed the fitness), but inevitably, i would end up pressing the "Post Reply" Button.

This is because there are facets of the future which are a certainty, because they reflect what is happening in the present - for example, i can't roll a joint because i don't have any weed, but the habit that has formed from years on the stuff is still telling me to make a joint.

Perhaps tomorrow i will.

In practice, this is essentially a very basic method of learning to strategise and how to understand the environment around you in utterly realistic (not 'ordinary') terms.

Remember, none of this nessecarily needs anything to do with religious or spiritual matters whatsoever, but i won't blame you if you think that.

The brain is the most important thing a living human being can possess, and as such one should not under-estimate the brain's capabilities.

I'll answer to each of the three previous replies in seperate posts rather than make any more of such 'monster' length. Hopefully, that'll help make things a bit easier to read.



You are to me , I think.

Instead of our consciousness being erased at birth, I prefer to think that we are bombarded by the physical senses of the material world. The first thing we experience at birth is feeling cold... sudden and totally different from the comfort of the womb. The next thing that happens must be just as traumatic; a nurse, doctor or midwife slaps our butt HARD while holding us upside down by the heels. The shock and the pain must be quite a change from lolling about happily within the warm waters where we swam for months.

Just that first intake of breathe must be shocking as well. No wonder we normally come into this world screaming like a banshee! It must be excruciating during those first few seconds and I'm glad I don't remember the event.

From that point onward, our 5 senses are swamped by the sheer cascade of information coming from the material world. Bright lights, loud noises, the variety of smells (some not pleasant at all, and that's why some become anal retentive, refusing to allow the poo into the diapers).

Rather than being focussed on where we came from, our entire attention has become the world into which we were so recently and rudely thrown. If there is any memory of a previous life, it soon takes a back seat to the more pressing issues of the now. We are much too busy to contemplate the 'Here Before', if I might coin that phrase.

As we become more comfortable in our lives, things do come back to us in dribs and drabs and we begin to think about things not of this world. Gradually we become fascinated by these non-worldly issues. What has never left us, though, are our dreams. We dreamt in the womb, we dreamt as babies, children and now as adults. This is our only connection to the spirit world which is, imo, God.

Jung has much to say about the development of a person as they go through life from birth to death and I intend to get into much more detail on this later.





We are not gods in human form, but have have God within all of us at the same time. God is a part of us which cannot be gained nor lost, built upon or torn down. We have no control over God, God only has control over us. No one individual human can 'attain' more God to 'attain godship'. We cannot spend God, nor can we hoard more God, we can only live with God.


By living with God, I don't mean studying texts or listening to others (like myself) to show you what and where God is, we can only look outside for questions to ask within ourselves. If we do listen or read the works of others, then you should look only for questions, since the only answers that make ANY sense are the ones you are willing to accept within your own heart.

The dream I had was written down shortly after I awoke. I intend to continue to post me dreams in this thread as they occur, since it and the topic is a large part of my working day. Not only that, but the paintings I am working on in my studio are also part and parcel of the contents in this thread and have been so for decades. I will be dropping some pics of my artwork into posts to illustrate points I will try to make here.

As to any interpretations that I have made so far, they are few and sketchy at best, but I'll try to answer the questions you raise.



Good question and it made me attempt to 'see' the globe again as it appeared in the dream. It 'seemed' as if I was holding the globe in my hands, but I don't remember my hands being on it. Suffice it to say that the globe was directly in front of my eyes and looked very much like an ordinairy globe of the world as you would see it on a teachers desk in geography class, but without a stand. I did not turn it, but only observed what I took to be the North Pole becuase it was on the top of the world.

The fact that it was white is very important. White is a colour associated with the gods, and can be found out by studying artworks which were done very far back into our most primitive times. I have decided, then, that the globe represents the Creator. I am looking at it with a mixture of both curiousity and awe in my dream... I DO remember those feelings.



No. This is a very important point.

When writing down your dream, ALWAYS start with the last thing you remember dreaming and go backwards. In this way, the strongest memory is written first and the act of writing it down will actually bring more memories out as you go through the dream sequences.

The globe sequence was the last part of the dream. This happened after I walked out of the room, towards what is the kitchen at my 'astronomer friends' house. However, as I walked and sang towards the familiar kitchen, all surroundings changed and I was no longer in the house with those three people. There was only myself and the globe. (I'll get into what else the globe may mean to me as I try to interpret the image)

The room I was in before I left singing to the globe is VERY familiar to me. As I said before, it was the livingroom in my 'astronomer friend's house. There were four people there, remember? I'll list them and try to explain them as best I can. remember, in an earlier thread, that Jung believes that ALL the beings in a dream are different parts of myself.

Astronomer Friend: this is the part of me I wish to be. I respect my friend for his determination and consistency and, in him, I see something I myself am striving for. His image represents the future and my aspirations to success.

The Watcher: this is the part of me that keeps track of what I do. It is my conscience, measuring my urges.

The Mysterious Stranger: this is the part of me that has sinned. It follows me around like a shadow, ready to wave my failings in my face. It's a bit like my conscience as well, but removed from any possibility of change. Where The Watcher will try to stop me from doing something wrong, The Stranger is baggage best come to terms with. The less this character shows up in my dreams, the more I've come to terms with what I've found to be wrong with my personality.

Myself: this is my soul image, or anima (feminine aspect, no I'm not gay, I'm married with kids not that that proves anything, though ). It is this part that guides me through my dreams and sometimes becomes me as well. We are like twins, male and female in one.

The above interpretations could be right, could be wrong... I don't know. Further dreams can shed light on this or I could have a moment of insight as I'm painting or shovelling snow. The thing to do is ask myself... "OK, just who WERE those characters?"

Yup, Freud would agree, but not Jung. Jung would say ALL of your dreams throughout your life have the potential to shape your future. That, as adults, we have begun to ignore our dreams, believing them to be trash, is the greatest mistake we can make. Last nights' dream has the potential to change what I do today. In fact, in writing these posts, it already has.

reply to post by masqua

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My first impression of the white globe was the earth in its early formation when white hot. Just a thought. Viewing the north pole I would think would mean you were above the earth looking down perhaps. I have a few other thoughts but don't want to color yours.

Now I see why I've been the viewer rather than the participant in my dreams lately. That would be the Watcher, right? Now I need to ponder what I'm feeling so guilty about, I guess.


Dreams do make odd bedfellows don't they. Okay that was bad, but I just HAD to throw it in there. My wicked hense of sumour took me over.

I_R

Wow, masqua, what a very interesting thread!

I think in a thousand years (maybe less I hope), that "religion" will have grown up, as children grow up and leave childish ways behind. Maybe in a thousand years an acceptable "belief" will be that "God" and "man" are one and not separate. We are God, but not in an egotistical, childish way of thinking, that being "God" is like being King of the Hill. When we truly know this, we know the Truth.

I think Jung's dream analysis went against his time's belief that dreams were meaningless, merely sleep's fun or nightmares, caused perhaps by a good or bad diet, what one ate that day perhaps. Dreams certainly were not viewed as part of religion or supported by science.
The Biblical readings by the pastor during Sunday service of passages talking about dreams seemed to be read as if they were fairy tales, not meant to be taken as literally, while at the same time everything else was to be taken literally .

When dreams (and religion) are stripped of fear and superstition, it is a time of growth. When humans quit trying to scare the bejeezus out of each other, maybe then there will be more peace.

My dreams? Yes, I have found that dreamwork works. Dreams have helped me understand what was happening in my conscious Life; and, have helped prepare me for future events, sort of like a preview to lesson the impact of something bad when it happened.

Oh, and, yes, one can learn to interpret their own dreams, just as one can access God directly, not needing an intercessor, a priest.

Before answering the two posts above and getting too far afield with the topic at hand, it should be noted that there is a forum in BTS named
Dreams and Personal Predictions.

Rather than attempt (within this thread) to understand the messages that dreams are giving us, we should direct such discussion there. I do have some literature at hand which can help form some clues and, if you provide link within a post here, I'll see what's available to me. The dream I provided was initially meant as a guide on recording dreams and I can assure you it works really well.

Here is the method;

1. As soon as you awake, write down as much as you can remember, starting with the last part first and then working backwards. This method will help you remember more as you write it down.

2. Use point form, trying to capture the images. Don't try to write whole sentences, complete with punctuation, capital letters, etc. It's not an assignment you need to hand in to an English teacher.

3. Where possible, try to make drawings. ALL dream sequences are images and an image is worth 1,000,000 words, imo. There are two types of images- most are from the personal unconscious and are a reaction to events in your daily life, especially if you are less than middle aged.

Then there are the ones which may come from the collective unconscious, called Archetypal. Both are equally important to you, so don't try to differentiate while writing/drawing representation of them. Write them all down and let your ego sort them out.

4. Upon going to sleep the next time, go through those images of a dream you wish to understand better. It's easier the fresher it is in your mind, but reviewing ANY image will cause more information to surface. Your unconscious has an uncanny memory for images. Just consciously thinking about it will bring it back to the surface.

5. Pay particular attention to people you know, things that are said, what the people you don't know look like and what you feel when you see or hear them speak. Nothing in a dream is garbage.

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To reiterate the topic of this thread, for those who are just reading for the first time;

The two following ideas, based on the work of CG Jung;

The dogma of much of the worlds religions have usurped your personal direct line of communication with God, the Creator and Deity. I propose that written works and teachers, although they are a means of opening minds to spiritual matters, are not fully honest with their flocks. They have evolved into businesses by becoming intermediaries. This is, imo, the oldest and greatest conspiracy of them all.

Dreams are the way that God/the Creator/Deity speaks to each and every one of us. Rather than ignoring them, believing them to be fantasy and, therefore, trash, we should be listening carefully to what they are telling you.



I had a dream - Martin Luther King

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speeling and grammar edit



[edit on 3/3/08 by masqua]

Actually I see where it sounded like I was hinting at stealing works now which was not my intention. I should restate in that I believe he had the ability to draw several complex thoughts together at once and relate the continuity between them as well as expand on them.

i]reply to post by Illahee

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No problem, Illahee, and thanks for coming back to the thread and reading. Your input is much appreciated, as is everyone's.

CG Jung did not just read Alchemy, he used it to find a better understanding of the human condition, both physical and spiritual, but also lived it by the building of a stone tower; a place of seclusion and repose where he could study the ancient texts.

An example from Memories Dreams, Reflections pg 237



If I ever get a chance before I die, I'll go there to visit. AFTER I die, I will circle the area until I find it, so that the two of us, master and neophyte, can have a ghostly beer and reminisce the 50's decade we both shared.

Nice dream, eh?

[edit on 3/3/08 by masqua]

The guilt you may feel could be something as distant as your earliest childhood days. To get to the bottom of what seems to be an irrational feeling of guilt (one which you can't account for), should not be of concern unless it is making your waking life miserable, as in wishing to harm yourself.

If that is the case, then professional help is needed.

Rational feelings of guilt, like those arising from things you know you have done that were wrong, are best dealt with by either 'clearing your conscience' through 'making good' with those you wronged or coming to understand that what happened was because you didn't know any better.

Tell yourself that you accept your downfalls, forgive yourself and move on. One of the best cures for ridding yourself of guilt has been a main feature of the Catholic Church. It's a really good idea, but you can also talk to anyone else who knows you well.

Getting rid of those types of guilt can be easily done and the rewards are well worth the confession.