Was Jesus a Magician?

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posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:27 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


If anyone can answer this question intelligently without falling victim to dogmatic beleif i will send them a crisp 100 dollar bill


WHy was the divinity of jesus christ such a hotly debated issue at the council of nicea and really throughout the history of our worldy religions??




posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:31 AM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


You know, I keep hearing this argument but nobody has ever told me where they get this information. There were dozens of extrabiblical Christian historians, early church fathers, and apologists who all agreed on the divinity of Christ. Then the Nicaean council took place later. The minutes from the council still exist and anyone can access them. So it makes me wonder how and from where this accusation keeps surfacing. Any thoughts? I cannot refute evidence that has never been provided.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:35 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Probably a you tube video.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:44 AM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Probably a you tube video.




I am sending you my hospital bill when I am being sent to the emergency room for all the asthma attacks you are giving me due to laughing fits.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:48 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


How is it a secret that the divinity of christ was solidified as dogma for an entire geopolitical arena during the council of nicea? Even if the transformation from pagan to christianity took place before that council the divinity of this being was the main focus of discussion and i am asking why? Also....the term "chrisitanity" comes from where?
From what i have heard all that the word "christ" means is the annointed one or something along those lines, and was a title used way before jesus. So whats the story with that? what was his real name? I heard his name was Jmmanuel and not from a billy meir enthusiast or from a person who read the talmud of jmmanuel. So....a concurrence of knoweldge from two different sources tells me there is a lot we do not know.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:52 AM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
reply to post by AshleyD
 


If anyone can answer this question intelligently without falling victim to dogmatic beleif i will send them a crisp 100 dollar bill


Why was the divinity of jesus christ such a hotly debated issue at the council of nicea and really throughout the history of our worldy religions??


Why was the Divinity such a hotly debated issue?

Anyone that has people following them and has them willingly go to death under the worst conditions possible, torture, boiling etc..
for merely saying/believing in the divinity of another person all the while claiming that this person has amazing abilities is mind-blowing.. hell we wonder how Jimmy Jones got everyone to follow him...(grape tang anyone?)
the reason it was so highly debated ? because if people didn't accept the person they accepted the words of the person which is a contradiction I understand but one that still has it's effect, we needn't go too far into our own history to see this with the elaborate debate over the existence of Don Juan Matus a character from Carlos Castaneda's books, sure under a magnifying glass it seems neatly wrapped up and debunked, but if you look very carefully and following the bread crumbs you notice theres a lot more behind it.
The same is true with Christ, ... was it one person? a collaboration? a fabrication? then they listen to the words and have an uneasy feeling and they wonder where this(the words) came from, and they are left scratching their heads still.

Another reason to debate his divinity is because of the miracles he DID do, were all reproductions of previous miracles carried out by prophets etc.. in the old testament and the order in which he carried them out is significant also leaving the question 'who guided him' or who taught him? leaving them to wonder how did "some loser" become so important and so intelligent and amass such a following, without an army or artillery but with mere words.

So far he has been the most influential speaker to date.
Hell our friggin' date and calendars are based on his birth and death!..
B.C., A.D. .... Anno Domini Nostri Iesu.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:52 AM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


What we are really talking about here is perception of ideals and beleifs. Jesus' message was clear to most but then it was misconstrued by the catholice church and religious dogma as a whole to CONTROL the masses.

THe bible is more than just a story but for those who truly beleive in it and place all their eggs in one basket....it is an invisible force of control because of the fact that the tools used are successfull in programming thought. Once you have people thinking like you want them to they will be self perpetuating lies for centuries to come. This is where the whole controversy regarding jesus' married state comes from....."how could he have been married, he was a god and in our religion men are not allowd to marry?" OR "There is no way he had a wife and kids because sex is evil and dirty!" Or a number of BS lies and propoganda the organized religions of the world peddle in front of our faces.

Its funny.....you have sheople going to church every sunday thinking it will save them. Then they leave that building only to turn to greed and selfish behavior, stepping on the man next to them to get what they want. No love, no mercy....just profit for the elites and death for those who oppose.

Not much has changed since jesus' time has it?



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by PuRe EnErGy
 


Youre on the right track dude....there is always a man behind the curtain.
Yet the reason i feel that jesus did exist and that his message was pure at one time and manipulated is because I feel in my heart and know exactly what he was trying to preach....and i am not affiliated with any dogmatic beleif structure and consider myself simply human. Thats all i am....a human being with a divine spirit. THAT is the point....humanity cant realize that they are decendants of "divinity" and that divinity is not a status of social class but that it is an ACHIEVABLE state of spirituality learned through the ancient secrets of our existence. THAT is the truth people....what they are finding in egypt right now is completely DELEATING what religions have been preaching for years. Everything from evolution to the time when humans came to this planet.

There is only one story about it and its called chambers of the deep....a documentary will be released at the end of the century. Google it and know that there already were attempts to debunk one of the authors but NOT the fact that these chambers exist.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:01 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
How is it a secret that the divinity of christ was solidified as dogma for an entire geopolitical arena during the council of nicea?


Emphasis on your use of the term 'solidified.' Meaning, the concept was there, everyone knew it, everyone was talking about it. The concept was not created at the council. Only 'solidified.'

Similar to the trinity. Jesus the son, God the Father, and the Holy Spirit are explicitly mentioned. The concept was there. Critics also like to say the trinity was a made up dogmatic concept. Not so. Again, the concept was already in there but the church solidified it as sound doctrine.


Also....the term "chrisitanity" comes from where?


This is a bit more tricky. In the beginning, were were simply called "Jews.' Why? Because we were nothing more than 'Jews' who accepted the promised Messiah as being fulfilled in Jesus Christ. Then we are told the term 'Christian' was first used in Antioch. Although it was still not the popular term, it caught on eventually and the distinction was made between Old Testament Law abiding Jews and New Testament Jesus following Christians. Christians = followers of the Christ.


From what i have heard all that the word "christ" means is the annointed one or something along those lines, and was a title used way before jesus.


'Christ' is simply the anglicized version of the Jewish word "Messiah" which means, as you said, 'anointed' or 'anointed one.' The Messianic prophecies [notice the word Messianic] of the Old Testament foretold the Messiah. Jesus fulfilled the prophecies to verify He was the promised Messiah. So Christ/Messiah is anointed then Jesus declared He was one with the Father.


So whats the story with that? what was his real name? I heard his name was Jmmanuel and not from a billy meir enthusiast or from a person who read the talmud of jmmanuel. So....a concurrence of knoweldge from two different sources tells me there is a lot we do not know.


His name was Jesus of Nazareth. Immanuel would drag us off into huge tangents but basically it has to do with Isaiah's prophecy that was literally fulfilled in his son and metaphorically fulfilled in Jesus. Immanuel means "God with us." Jesus was "God with us" in human form. Remember in Jewish antiquity people's names often held descriptions and meaning. Think along the lines of American Indian names like "Running Bear." So was the same in relation to "Immanuel." Isaiah's son was literally named Immanuel while Jesus fulfilled the technical definition of the name: God with us.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Well I could speak on this for a living....
It usually falls on deaf ears or blind eyes anyway.

but much of the dogmatic beliefs were manufactured to keep more esoteric patterns hidden from knowledge or gnosis.

the occult has a very big part.

In the old gnostic texts Jesus tells (I believe it is John) that it was actually him who presented the fruit to eve (from the tree) and he appeared in the shape of an eagle and NOT a snake, he gives reasoning for doing so as well.
The whole biblical story takes on a different shape once you read the dead sea scrolls and other gnostic texts.
There is a plethora of information with-held and obscured.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:22 PM
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reply to post by PuRe EnErGy
 





But some of it is a load of crap.

Gnosticism basically is about self and personal knowledge.

Christianity is about selflessness and worshiping God.

Please provide specific examples with book:verse to make your point.

The book of Enoch is ok in my view but a lot of the gnostic stuff is



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


I mean no offense at all,...

They aren't exactly children's books.. or coloring books..
nor are they grade school english papers.

They are very difficult to understand even for a skilled researcher and they are written for someone who is already familiar with the 'material'
not to mention it is mostly of an occult nature.




Gnosticism basically is about self and personal knowledge.

Christianity is about selflessness and worshiping God.


As it was written..

"Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not realize that he who made the inside is the same one who made the outside?"

it requires a great sage to be selfless and to 'worship' "GOD" as vague as that is.
and it is highly necessary to have personal knowledge and to know about self, or you would have no fuel.

Jesus had a great understanding of how the body worked and that is why he was such an amazing healer.

The gnostic scriptures get a bad rap because for one they are almost impossible to follow or understand.
and with the amount of propaganda we've been fed before we're even 5 years old about GOD and Christ thru the media and the world around us (regardless of your faith or religion) it builds our idea of what it's all supposed to be about and the gnostic scriptures paint a totally different picture.. a more frightening and complicated one.

[edit on 2/28/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

[edit on 2/28/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:08 PM
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Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy
reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


I mean no offense at all,...

They aren't exactly children's books.. or coloring books..
nor are they grade school english papers.


None taken, but they completely conflict with Jesus teachings. I'll prove it with examples.


Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

They are very difficult to understand even for a skilled researcher and they are written for someone who is already familiar with the 'material'
not to mention it is mostly of an occult nature.


Occult means hidden...
Jesus says:


25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.



Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

As it was written..
"Why do you wash the outside of the cup? Do you not realize that he who made the inside is the same one who made the outside?"


You can't do this yourself. This accomplished by sanctification through the Holy Spirit.



25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.





Originally posted by PuRe EnErGy

it requires a great sage to be selfless and to 'worship' "GOD" as vague as that is.
and it is highly necessary to have personal knowledge and to know about self, or you would have no fuel.


No a simple child can worship.

Apostle Paul says,


We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God.

(1 cor 8)

You don't need esoteric knowledge. It's fun maybe but it can be dangerous. What is true religion?



27Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
(James 1)

Just a couple examples... I refrained form personal opinion and used scripture to make my point. The gnostic teachings don't jive...



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:33 PM
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Just going to throw this into the discussion. Take it as you will. The Gnostics believed Jesus was a 'spirit being.' We know the Gnostics were trying to squeeze their beliefs into Christianity almost since the very onset of Christianity. Fortunately, the eye witnesses to Jesus' life and ministry as a true historical person were still alive at the time and this belief is refuted twice in the Bible itself.

From John:


This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.


From Paul:


Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.


It is my opinion both of those are blatant refutations of the Gnostic doctrine being passed around. Pay special attention to the excerpt from Timothy. The word 'knowledge' comes from 'gnosis.' Of course, this is the root for Gnosticism.

I might be wrong but that is how it looks to me.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:43 PM
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WHat if we are all god embodied as humanity?
Thats a good question to ponder.....this was the message of christ. Love each other unconditionally because we can and that is what makes us divine.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 01:48 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Just a point about esoteric knoweldge from the horses mouth (a catholic priest with the ability to perform exorcisms)....when i asked him WHY these religions do not teach the people the esoteric forms of their beleifs he answerd " to control them"
HA!
Feed on that one a little......
Anyone look into the chambers of the deep yet??



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:38 PM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


I really, seriously doubt than any respectable, faithful priest of God would make such a lame statement, Guice2. At the least, a comment like this from a priest would be irresponsible and soooo unkind.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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reply to post by deenamarie53
 


Or perhaps its the truth.....

its about time we shun authorities as truth and start looking to truths as authority.

How is this not logical to you?
Make people beleive in a being they cant see and tell them all the mysteries of the world are "god operating inmysterious ways" and they never as the questin WHY. Therefore they never protest against authority.....in this case the biggest authority is the catholic church and i dont have to tell you how powerful they are.

Look....the ins and outs of this argument are based on perception, understanding and reason. REason specifically has been an enemy of most religions because of that WHY factor. You see, if the masses started to ask why and never stopped until they were satisifed that what they hear is the truth do you know how many illusions will be revealed as such?

Seriously....think about all that you have learned, all that you have read and understand that it was taught in such a manner for a reason.

Original sin? HA!! I have never seen such an invisible tool of thought control in my life....so humans are born with a STAIN that only the man upstairs can absolve you of? HAHAHAH....no wonder why people are so comfortable in debt. They already beleive they own their lives to the man with the white beard who they CANNOT question.
Dont eat from the tree of knoweledge but do you know why?



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 02:59 PM
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reply to post by deenamarie53
 


What say you regarding the uncoverings of the ancient egyption "parent civilization" or the records of what they refer to as the "first times"?


What about that? How about the fact that these discoveries in egypt which predate humanity (or what we know about its inception) by hundreds of thousands of years!?!?

Then you might say show me proof.....and i say well, just look at the damn security the egyptian government has around the sphynx at a specific entry point. WHat are they protecting with the threat of being shot?
What is worth shooting a human being for to protect? It isnt gold or money i can tell you that much.....

dont any of you lend any type of credit to what is being uncovered in egypt that is more ancient then any of our religions combined???

COme on now.....reason with me and stop thinking according to dogma and organized hypocrisies.



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 03:02 PM
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Originally posted by deenamarie53
reply to post by GUICE2
 


I really, seriously doubt than any respectable, faithful priest of God would make such a lame statement, Guice2. At the least, a comment like this from a priest would be irresponsible and soooo unkind.




Irresponsible???!!

Its irrispopnsible to lie to everyone based on the assumption that it will protect them. I understand that most sheople cant conceptualize these ideas but why do we have to fall vicitm to it as well?

irresponsible?? Dont forget yo uare talking about the same administration that HIDES their own sexual deviants instead of punishing them.

Please.....no sympathy for the roman catholic conglomerates from me. they killed more people than ebola and thought an apology would make up for it, and if they were real humanitarians then they would turn their rooms of gold into food for the entire freakin world because trust me they have the wealth to feed africa 10 times OVER!!!

Please....talk about your false prophets.

Dont get me wrong....mucho kudos to the popes and priests and such that have had a positive impact. Its not about them, its about their administration and its true agenda.





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