Was Jesus a Magician?

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posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 11:51 AM
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reply to post by GUICE2
 


Hi ya. Well, if we want to stay within the OP's original post then we should be chatting about whether or not Jesus was using magic or miracles.




posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 12:15 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
hE WAS JUST A MAN.....just a human being with divine knowledge that has been kept from us all along. he learned the mystic schools and the language of light, then he returned understanding that you cant just teach these things right out to people because of the forces of control and their own slavery to the way they think. So he taught how to love and care for each other and look for reason and the truth by not accepting the authority that was laid before them. People are blind but not because they cant see....because there are so many damn walls both internal and external which we are taught that we cant run right through them. There are so many illusions of legitimacy that the truth doesnt set you free becaus4e when you reveal it, like jesus did, those who wanted to keep it underwraps will kill you.

It is important for the world to see jesus as a divine prohpet when really he was just a man.


Guice you get a star!

Here's some thoughts I've long been mulling over regarding Jesus as magician AND Jesus as Messiah.

He can be viewed as both and fulfills some pretty basic needs for a monumental number of people. Let's say we're dealing with pagan-spiritual and christian-spiritual folks. And none of us are scholars for that matter...


Do people choose to worship/adore a lesser Being...and will they settle for something a little less? How do we choose between magic or miracles, if you will?

People can choose Jesus AS Messiah and follow His teachings...which, I noticed, you seem to have given much thought to. Or they can still trust in Him as a Holy Magician without offending inner misgivings....as to whether or not He is what He said that He is....The Son of God and God incarnate.

Oh well, I don't wanna get tapped for getting off-the OP's post so that's about it.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by deenamarie53
 


You see this is the fundamental problem with discussing these ideas.
WE are talking about perception....whoever says that he was a magician is accepting certain things. They are accepting that things he did that seemed "magical" are not attainable by the everyday man. Well....when you look into ancient egypt and read about the language of light you realize that these things arent magic but actual ways to manipulate your physical reality. It is "godly" power but is available to humans through learning. The problem is that there is so much greed out there that it is obvious someone will use it for bad.....or what is perceived to be bad like in jesus' case. He was just a man who learned the secrets of the universe and tried to expose the everyday man to them....thats why they killed him.
then they turned him into a GOD or a GODLY like figure and created a dogma to instilled fear and misunderstanding of the human condition in the hearts of all who beleived or were forced to beleive. SO....yes he was a magician because we are too ignorant to stand up and be able to run through all the walls holding us back from the knowledge of the universe.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 12:42 PM
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The bottom line is that whatever is seen but cannot be explained doesnt mean there is no answer. We are taught to beleive that there is no answer and therefore have no choice but to have blind faith and that is what gets us into trouble.
We then look at a man like jesus and say he was a magician because the knowledge he possess is unatainable to us. We are talking about nothng more than perception here. Even my own perception might be skewed a little....but i feel that the reasoning process to arrive at this conclusion is much more rational than that of describing him as a magician or god or anything that includes religious dogma.

He was a man,......he learned the secrets of the universe and wanted to wake people up. The same elites that killed kennedy and martin luther king.....killed jesus christ.
We all need to change the way we think about our world and stop being slaves to "thread topics".


ANyone heard of the chambers of the deep project?
If anything it tells me that we have NO idea where we came from and everything we have learned is full of BS so we have to start over.

Jesus sought the same secrets that are going to be revealed by that documentary at the end of the century. Its amazing what you will find when you keep digging and use reason NOT authority as an avenue for finding the truth.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 12:56 PM
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Now NOw, if jesus is a fictional character then somebody wrote some incredible story and deserves a Newberry Prize.

Does anybody think it is possible that he was the greatest illusionist of all time. I'm not talking about card tricks and vanishing coins. I think that he could have pulled it off and his apostles could have been his "assistants."
Just a thought feel free to tear me apart



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by dave420
That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion


First of all, you'll have to prove to me He didn't exist. The evidence is by far in my favor. However, let's say for argument's sake He did not exist. This would still be an interesting subject to discuss. Let's use a critical excerpt from the polemicist, Celsus, of the 2nd century:


"Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain [magical] powers... He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god... It was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed... Let us believe that these cures, or the resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a few loaves... These are nothing more than the tricks of jugglers... It is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of [miraculous] power..."


www.earlychristianwritings.com...

This is how I explain it elsewhere on my website:

"Not only does Celsus confirm Jesus' existence, he also tries to debate the source of Jesus' miracles. Like the pharisees of Jesus' day, Celsus tries to dismiss these miracles as both demonic possession and cheap parlor tricks. However, he is clearly grasping at straws: On one hand Celsus accuses Jesus of performing magic learned in Egypt, then later states it is by the power of possession, then states the miracles were not really miracles at all but were illusionary tricks performed by a deceiver, then finally states the miracles never occurred!"

So what was Celsus' final conclusion about Jesus (even though the contradictions of his excuse for Jesus' miracles will make your head spin)?


He was therefore a man, and of such a nature, as the truth itself proves, and reason demonstrates him to be.


Celsus (2nd century A.D.), smug in in his own conclusion that Jesus was simply a trickster, admits Jesus was only a man. A man who existed 2,000 years ago.

Origin comes along and says the following in rebuttal of Celsus' claims:


After this, through the influence of some motive which is unknown to me, Celsus asserts that it is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of (miraculous) power; hinting, I suppose, at the practices of those who expel evil spirits by incantations. And here he manifestly appears to malign the Gospel. For it is not by incantations that Christians seem to prevail (over evil spirits), but by the name of Jesus, accompanied by the announcement of the narratives which relate to Him; for the repetition of these has frequently been the means of driving demons out of men, especially when those who repeated them did so in a sound and genuinely believing spirit. Such power, indeed, does the name of Jesus possess over evil spirits, that there have been instances where it was effectual, when it was pronounced even by bad men, which Jesus Himself taught



(would be the case), when He said: "Many shall say to Me in that day, In Thy name we have cast out devils, and done many wonderful works." Whether Celsus omitted this from intentional malignity, or from ignorance, I do not know. And he next proceeds to bring a charge against the Saviour Himself, alleging that it was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed; and that foreseeing that others would attain the same knowledge, and do the same things, making a boast of doing them by help of the power of God, He excludes such from His kingdom. And his accusation is, that if they are justly excluded, while He Himself is guilty of the same practices, He is a wicked man; but if He is not guilty of wickedness in doing such things, neither are they who do the same as He. But even if it be impossible to show by what power Jesus wrought these miracles, it is clear that Christians employ no spells or incantations, but the simple, name of Jesus, and certain other words in which they repose faith, according to the holy Scriptures.


www.earlychristianwritings.com...

-Origen (2nd century A.D.).

Basically, Origin accuses Celsus of pulling the claims out of his behind, contradicting himself, purposely leaving information out to provide his own spin, and mimicking the accusations made by the Pharisees of Jesus' day. In essence, he's telling Celsus to get some new material and to get his story straight if he wants to be taken seriously. Then he basically says, "For argument's sake, if I cannot convince you Jesus' miracles were real, look around at the Christians. They are performing wonderful works as well without any sort of incantation or spells." Other historical documents of the time, both Christian and secular, corroborate Origen's claims that Christians were doing so mighty impressive works that could not be chalked up to magic.

I think that's pretty cool although I don't expect the skeptics to ever agree.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 01:05 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Whats up ashley? How are ya?

This whole jesus perception thing is very interesting and for the most part is a great way to understand society.

You see, the catholic church created dogma around jesus for a reason....control.
They do not teach the esoteric forms of religion to the people who follow it for a reason and that is also control. I heard that from a priest so right from the horses damn mouth!

Jesus was a man and yes he went to ancient egypt because that is where we all come from.....he was lucky enough to be free because he was independently wealthy. Carpenters were not poor back then people i mean think about it....they built everything! You think society would let them be poor? HA!!


Jesus learned the ancient wisdom and laws of nature and learned the physical manifestations of its practice. He died for us to see that we are just like him, or at least we could be but it would take a lot of love and a lot of percerverance to get there. THAT WAS HIS MESSAGE!

He most certainly did not have a message which included the divisions in our society now between religion and class. If he was supposed to come back today he would kick the crap out of everyone who limited someone else's freedom based on his/her religious beleifs. He was not about organized dogma or religion. His message was love....now what love leads to has to be found out within each of us but the message is clear. Learn to love first, then go out and conquer the world.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 01:28 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
You see, the catholic church created dogma around jesus for a reason....control.


I thank the Heavens above I am not a Catholic nor do I follow their dogma. I'd rather have a personal relationship with Jesus and tell anyone who tries to get in the way, including any church, whether it be Catholic or Protestant, to bugger off.

There is anywhere between 5,000-25,000 Greek texts and fragments of the New Testament writings still in existence. It's why I like the NIV and the NASB over the KJV. They got to the source of all sources: The original Greek. And then once you research the canonization process and the verification of the authorship of the texts you will see it seems like the Bible is pretty darn reliable in its completion and translation.


Jesus was a man and yes he went to ancient egypt because that is where we all come from.....he was lucky enough to be free because he was independently wealthy. Carpenters were not poor back then people i mean think about it....they built everything! You think society would let them be poor? HA!!


Actually, I do not believe Jesus was a poor peasant like many do. If you are familiar with the history of the ancient near east (ANE) around the time of Jesus, you will know many building projects were in the works. Without a doubt Jesus was employed to work on some. It makes sense. Carpenters were craftsmen. Not rich, but not destitute either. It's more likely than not Jesus made a good living. Even in the Bible someone asks, "Isn't that Jesus? Isn't He the carpenter?" It looks like He was pretty well known and talented in His trade.

And putting the pieces to together, it is safe to assume Joseph had died somewhere during the 'silent years.' According to Jewish law and tradition it was the duty of the eldest son to take care of his widowed mother and siblings. Jesus probably made a good living to support them all. Once He started His ministry, He then most likely passed the task onto His other siblings with the exception of His apostle brothers, James and Jude.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 02:00 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Well the definition of "rich" could have been different. It probably had nothing to do with money since the religions and governements held the real wealth in those societies. Perhaps jesus was rich in infrastructure and therefore had many opportunities to be taken to egypt and given shelter and food by other friends.

Why have a personal relationship with the man though? Why not understand his message and find that personal relatinoship with love through yourself and then through others which in turn will translate to a relationship with jesus since we are all one and many at the same time?

Its the divisional attitude in religions and politics that i do not agree at all with or adhere to. They are so ingrained in our society and our though processes that it is absolutely hard to let go of all of them and not fall victim to their restrictive ways but one must try. That is why he died....to show us that we can die for others as well. To teach us that we are the ones with the power because we control our lives. Many people have died for others ashley and where is the dogma built around them? It doesnt exist.....because the man we know as jesus had a message and it was manipulated. Therefore he failed....as well as society. I know people know the truth but look around you....so much death and destruction that you would think shouldnt exist after such an impact made by one man. What has this world come to?



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by sumperson
What if jesus was the greatest magician of all time?
Im probably going to get laughed at a lot with this one.
But, magicians like David Blaine and Lance Burton can make things float, I saw David Blaine float

What if Jesus perfected the craft in his missing years in the bible?



No, he was a joker who learned joking arts from India. And jokers Jews turned him God



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 02:53 PM
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reply to post by Lonte
 


a joker?
Then why kill him off? Why all the controversy in the church regarding his married status? Why the questions regarding his continual bloodline from independant reserachers that have nothing to do with religion?
WHY WHY WHY.....the man did exist. His message is the same as many but he posed a threat to the current administration which was solidified in a small area so word gets around quickly. Now its a little different......same idea though.



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 02:56 PM
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Originally posted by GUICE2
a joker?
Then why kill him off? Why all the controversy in the church regarding his married status? Why the questions regarding his continual bloodline from independant reserachers that have nothing to do with religion?
WHY WHY WHY.....the man did exist. His message is the same as many but he posed a threat to the current administration which was solidified in a small area so word gets around quickly. Now its a little different......same idea though.


Those were jokes!



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 03:11 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by dave420
That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion


First of all, you'll have to prove to me He didn't exist. The evidence is by far in my favor. However, let's say for argument's sake He did not exist. This would still be an interesting subject to discuss. Let's use a critical excerpt from the polemicist, Celsus, of the 2nd century : [...]


About Dubourg's Midrashic Hypothesis - An answer to Acharya S., ZeitGeistTheMovie et al.






[edit on 27-2-2008 by Rigel]



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 03:25 PM
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reply to post by Lonte
 


and this is your opinion or are you one of the elites with the master plan who knows the truth?



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 04:10 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


Cool stuff Ashley! what about that mud?

So Celsus set out to debunk Jesus. But the very fact that he was worth debunking proves his existence and (at the least) that he did amazing things that were not easily dismissed.

The one thing you guys who say he was a myth are missing is perspective and context. The growth of the Christian church out of a few fishemen outlaws into 2 billion believers out to mean something.

During Jesus lifetime there were many "nut jobs" that made the same claims and even had a following. But it died off - no one was willing to die for it - or even preserve it. If Jesus was a fake or didn't exist the stories would have died off as well.

How many people have Millie Vanillie posters on their wall today?



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by AshleyD
 


Cool stuff Ashley! what about that mud?

So Celsus set out to debunk Jesus. But the very fact that he was worth debunking proves his existence and (at the least) that he did amazing things that were not easily dismissed.

The one thing you guys who say he was a myth are missing is perspective and context. The growth of the Christian church out of a few fishemen outlaws into 2 billion believers out to mean something.

During Jesus lifetime there were many "nut jobs" that made the same claims and even had a following. But it died off - no one was willing to die for it - or even preserve it. If Jesus was a fake or didn't exist the stories would have died off as well.

How many people have Millie Vanillie posters on their wall today?



You bring up a good point, Bigwhammy, much like what was discussed within the scripture below:


Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. 34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.( Acts 5:29-39)



posted on Feb, 27 2008 @ 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Cool stuff Ashley! what about that mud?


Thanks. About the mud: No clue! Jesus must have had holy saliva?
I don't know about that one. It is something that has always intrigued me.


So Celsus set out to debunk Jesus. But the very fact that he was worth debunking proves his existence and (at the least) that he did amazing things that were not easily dismissed.


Exactly. Even Jesus' critics never denied He existed. Celsus wrote massive manuscripts to refute Christianity. Seems kind of strange when all He would have had to have said it, "Hey Christians! Jesus didn't exist!" Instead, Celsus and other polemicists knew full well Jesus existed and the stories of the miracles, virgin birth, crucifixion, and resurrection. There is not a single document in antiquity from the critics that say Jesus never existed but there are dozens that state He did. That is why I said the evidence is in our favor.

Not only that, but there are other pieces of evidence referenced in other works that did not survive to our time. Jesus' birth in the Roman census records is one. Jesus' surviving siblings and relatives documented in the Roman records that has survived until our time is another one. Heck, there is even documentation of the apostles who were arrested of giving testimony in the Roman courts. The list goes on and on of the proof that would have verified His existence around their time.

People that deny Jesus' existence do it for comfort's sake. Period. There is no easier way for us to dismiss the reality of Christianity than to deny the existence of its founder. It's delusional.


During Jesus lifetime there were many "nut jobs" that made the same claims and even had a following. But it died off - no one was willing to die for it - or even preserve it. If Jesus was a fake or didn't exist the stories would have died off as well.


Exactly. Even the book of Acts mentions this defense:


Acts 5:33-39 (New International Version)

When they [The Sanhedrin] heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing.

After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."





How many people have Millie Vanillie posters on their wall today?





posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:02 AM
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anyone own a jesus birth certificate?



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 07:32 AM
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Originally posted by mrwupy

I believe Jesus existed.
He was the L. Ron Hubberd of his day.



I think that those around him likened him, his mission, his theatre,
to the Priestly order of Melchezidek ...

both were 'magicians', both were other-worldly personnages,

TZU-JAN is another meaning, (that which is so, of itself)



posted on Feb, 28 2008 @ 11:00 AM
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Originally posted by Lokey13
anyone own a jesus birth certificate?


No, but I do have this:


"There is a village in Judea, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, where Jesus Christ was born, as you can see from the tax registers under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea..."


-Justin Martyr
I Apology

Looks like antiquity's version of a birth certificate.





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