Was Jesus a Magician?, page 5

reply to post by GUICE2

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Hi ya. Well, if we want to stay within the OP's original post then we should be chatting about whether or not Jesus was using magic or miracles.

reply to post by deenamarie53

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You see this is the fundamental problem with discussing these ideas.
WE are talking about perception....whoever says that he was a magician is accepting certain things. They are accepting that things he did that seemed "magical" are not attainable by the everyday man. Well....when you look into ancient egypt and read about the language of light you realize that these things arent magic but actual ways to manipulate your physical reality. It is "godly" power but is available to humans through learning. The problem is that there is so much greed out there that it is obvious someone will use it for bad.....or what is perceived to be bad like in jesus' case. He was just a man who learned the secrets of the universe and tried to expose the everyday man to them....thats why they killed him.
then they turned him into a GOD or a GODLY like figure and created a dogma to instilled fear and misunderstanding of the human condition in the hearts of all who beleived or were forced to beleive. SO....yes he was a magician because we are too ignorant to stand up and be able to run through all the walls holding us back from the knowledge of the universe.

Originally posted by dave420
That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion

First of all, you'll have to prove to me He didn't exist. The evidence is by far in my favor. However, let's say for argument's sake He did not exist. This would still be an interesting subject to discuss. Let's use a critical excerpt from the polemicist, Celsus, of the 2nd century:

"Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain [magical] powers... He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god... It was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed... Let us believe that these cures, or the resurrection, or the feeding of a multitude with a few loaves... These are nothing more than the tricks of jugglers... It is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of [miraculous] power..."

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

This is how I explain it elsewhere on my website:

"Not only does Celsus confirm Jesus' existence, he also tries to debate the source of Jesus' miracles. Like the pharisees of Jesus' day, Celsus tries to dismiss these miracles as both demonic possession and cheap parlor tricks. However, he is clearly grasping at straws: On one hand Celsus accuses Jesus of performing magic learned in Egypt, then later states it is by the power of possession, then states the miracles were not really miracles at all but were illusionary tricks performed by a deceiver, then finally states the miracles never occurred!"

So what was Celsus' final conclusion about Jesus (even though the contradictions of his excuse for Jesus' miracles will make your head spin)?

He was therefore a man, and of such a nature, as the truth itself proves, and reason demonstrates him to be.

Celsus (2nd century A.D.), smug in in his own conclusion that Jesus was simply a trickster, admits Jesus was only a man. A man who existed 2,000 years ago.

Origin comes along and says the following in rebuttal of Celsus' claims:

After this, through the influence of some motive which is unknown to me, Celsus asserts that it is by the names of certain demons, and by the use of incantations, that the Christians appear to be possessed of (miraculous) power; hinting, I suppose, at the practices of those who expel evil spirits by incantations. And here he manifestly appears to malign the Gospel. For it is not by incantations that Christians seem to prevail (over evil spirits), but by the name of Jesus, accompanied by the announcement of the narratives which relate to Him; for the repetition of these has frequently been the means of driving demons out of men, especially when those who repeated them did so in a sound and genuinely believing spirit. Such power, indeed, does the name of Jesus possess over evil spirits, that there have been instances where it was effectual, when it was pronounced even by bad men, which Jesus Himself taught

(would be the case), when He said: "Many shall say to Me in that day, In Thy name we have cast out devils, and done many wonderful works." Whether Celsus omitted this from intentional malignity, or from ignorance, I do not know. And he next proceeds to bring a charge against the Saviour Himself, alleging that it was by means of sorcery that He was able to accomplish the wonders which He performed; and that foreseeing that others would attain the same knowledge, and do the same things, making a boast of doing them by help of the power of God, He excludes such from His kingdom. And his accusation is, that if they are justly excluded, while He Himself is guilty of the same practices, He is a wicked man; but if He is not guilty of wickedness in doing such things, neither are they who do the same as He. But even if it be impossible to show by what power Jesus wrought these miracles, it is clear that Christians employ no spells or incantations, but the simple, name of Jesus, and certain other words in which they repose faith, according to the holy Scriptures.

www.earlychristianwritings.com...

-Origen (2nd century A.D.).

Basically, Origin accuses Celsus of pulling the claims out of his behind, contradicting himself, purposely leaving information out to provide his own spin, and mimicking the accusations made by the Pharisees of Jesus' day. In essence, he's telling Celsus to get some new material and to get his story straight if he wants to be taken seriously. Then he basically says, "For argument's sake, if I cannot convince you Jesus' miracles were real, look around at the Christians. They are performing wonderful works as well without any sort of incantation or spells." Other historical documents of the time, both Christian and secular, corroborate Origen's claims that Christians were doing so mighty impressive works that could not be chalked up to magic.

I think that's pretty cool although I don't expect the skeptics to ever agree.

reply to post by AshleyD

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Whats up ashley? How are ya?

This whole jesus perception thing is very interesting and for the most part is a great way to understand society.

You see, the catholic church created dogma around jesus for a reason....control.
They do not teach the esoteric forms of religion to the people who follow it for a reason and that is also control. I heard that from a priest so right from the horses damn mouth!

Jesus was a man and yes he went to ancient egypt because that is where we all come from.....he was lucky enough to be free because he was independently wealthy. Carpenters were not poor back then people i mean think about it....they built everything! You think society would let them be poor? HA!!


Jesus learned the ancient wisdom and laws of nature and learned the physical manifestations of its practice. He died for us to see that we are just like him, or at least we could be but it would take a lot of love and a lot of percerverance to get there. THAT WAS HIS MESSAGE!

He most certainly did not have a message which included the divisions in our society now between religion and class. If he was supposed to come back today he would kick the crap out of everyone who limited someone else's freedom based on his/her religious beleifs. He was not about organized dogma or religion. His message was love....now what love leads to has to be found out within each of us but the message is clear. Learn to love first, then go out and conquer the world.

reply to post by AshleyD

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Well the definition of "rich" could have been different. It probably had nothing to do with money since the religions and governements held the real wealth in those societies. Perhaps jesus was rich in infrastructure and therefore had many opportunities to be taken to egypt and given shelter and food by other friends.

Why have a personal relationship with the man though? Why not understand his message and find that personal relatinoship with love through yourself and then through others which in turn will translate to a relationship with jesus since we are all one and many at the same time?

Its the divisional attitude in religions and politics that i do not agree at all with or adhere to. They are so ingrained in our society and our though processes that it is absolutely hard to let go of all of them and not fall victim to their restrictive ways but one must try. That is why he died....to show us that we can die for others as well. To teach us that we are the ones with the power because we control our lives. Many people have died for others ashley and where is the dogma built around them? It doesnt exist.....because the man we know as jesus had a message and it was manipulated. Therefore he failed....as well as society. I know people know the truth but look around you....so much death and destruction that you would think shouldnt exist after such an impact made by one man. What has this world come to?

reply to post by Lonte

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a joker?
Then why kill him off? Why all the controversy in the church regarding his married status? Why the questions regarding his continual bloodline from independant reserachers that have nothing to do with religion?
WHY WHY WHY.....the man did exist. His message is the same as many but he posed a threat to the current administration which was solidified in a small area so word gets around quickly. Now its a little different......same idea though.

Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by dave420
That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion

First of all, you'll have to prove to me He didn't exist. The evidence is by far in my favor. However, let's say for argument's sake He did not exist. This would still be an interesting subject to discuss. Let's use a critical excerpt from the polemicist, Celsus, of the 2nd century : [...]

About Dubourg's Midrashic Hypothesis - An answer to Acharya S., ZeitGeistTheMovie et al.






[edit on 27-2-2008 by Rigel]

reply to post by Lonte

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and this is your opinion or are you one of the elites with the master plan who knows the truth?

reply to post by AshleyD

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Cool stuff Ashley! what about that mud?

So Celsus set out to debunk Jesus. But the very fact that he was worth debunking proves his existence and (at the least) that he did amazing things that were not easily dismissed.

The one thing you guys who say he was a myth are missing is perspective and context. The growth of the Christian church out of a few fishemen outlaws into 2 billion believers out to mean something.

During Jesus lifetime there were many "nut jobs" that made the same claims and even had a following. But it died off - no one was willing to die for it - or even preserve it. If Jesus was a fake or didn't exist the stories would have died off as well.

How many people have Millie Vanillie posters on their wall today?

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by AshleyD

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Cool stuff Ashley! what about that mud?

So Celsus set out to debunk Jesus. But the very fact that he was worth debunking proves his existence and (at the least) that he did amazing things that were not easily dismissed.

The one thing you guys who say he was a myth are missing is perspective and context. The growth of the Christian church out of a few fishemen outlaws into 2 billion believers out to mean something.

During Jesus lifetime there were many "nut jobs" that made the same claims and even had a following. But it died off - no one was willing to die for it - or even preserve it. If Jesus was a fake or didn't exist the stories would have died off as well.

How many people have Millie Vanillie posters on their wall today?

You bring up a good point, Bigwhammy, much like what was discussed within the scripture below:

Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him. 33 When they heard that, they were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay them. 34 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; 35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.( Acts 5:29-39)

Originally posted by Lokey13
anyone own a jesus birth certificate?

No, but I do have this:

"There is a village in Judea, thirty-five stadia from Jerusalem, where Jesus Christ was born, as you can see from the tax registers under Cyrenius, your first procurator in Judea..."

-Justin Martyr
I Apology

Looks like antiquity's version of a birth certificate.

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