Was Jesus a Magician?

reply to post by pavlovsdog


I'm not going to spend too much time on this because:
1) I know what I know and have researched the historical texts that confirm much of what BW has said regarding the fate of the apostes.
2) The topic is not what the thread is about.
3) I'm just one of those crazy little illogical, irrational Christian nutties and no one is going to listen to a thing I say anyways and will consider me a but here we go from what I know off the top of my head:

I'll focus on James the Just because he is the easiest of them all, the account comes from a non Christian historical source, and to show how in the end we'll still be left with bias. I don't have the time or desire to do the research for everyone here regarding all the figures previous mentioned for the three reasons mentioned above. The accounts are there if you are willing to learn and search.

Festus was now dead, and Albinus was but upon the road; so he assembled the sanhedrim of judges, and brought before them the brother of Jesus, [who was called Christ], whose name was James, and some others, [or, some of his companions]; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned: but as for those who seemed the most equitable of the citizens, and such as were the most uneasy at the breach of the laws, they disliked what was done; they also sent to the king [Agrippa], desiring him to send to Ananus that he should act so no more, for that what he had already done was not to be justified; nay, some of them went also to meet Albinus, as he was upon his journey from Alexandria, and informed him that it was not lawful for Ananus to assemble a sanhedrim without his consent.

-Jospehus, Antiquities of the Jews XX, 9.
www.gutenberg.org...

Then the rest of the account continues as to what James endured and why. So, James was accused of breaking the Jewish law. Why? Well, according to the Bible he wasn't following the law because He accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Sounds like the same thing Jesus was accused of: Blasphemy. Read the above and linked context and you can see the kangaroo court and that the general consensus was that he was murdered under false pretenses.

Now, Christians, including myself, will certainly see it as James, the brother of Jesus, suffering death for his belief, under the false accusation of blasphemy, and dying for the faith.

Skeptics will say it was a Christian interpolation (regardless of the fact such speculation has never been proven), or that we don't know if Josephus is reliable witness (he is immensely valuable as a historian), or if this hearsay (although there is no reason to believe it is), or that it contradicts with later accounts (I would say so but I like to use the earliest and least biased source which happens to be the above), etc. We're left then proving the source as well as the account. The agony goes on and the original topic drifts further into oblivion and I age ten years due to stress.

Excuse me AshleyD but please tell me what it is you want me to try and prove. I am mearly asking a question not arguing any point.

Originally posted by sumperson
Excuse me AshleyD but please tell me what it is you want me to try and prove. I am mearly asking a question not arguing any point.

First of all, I'm not asking you to prove anything, Hon. I know it is frustrating to want to discus something only to be met with the proof proof proof crowd. So no worries there.

What I am saying is there is evidence. This could have been an awesome thread to discuss. The Jewish Talmud (allegedly), Celsus' polemic as preserved by Origen, and even the Bible contain accusations that Jesus was a magician/sorcerer. It would have been a lot of fun to go over that and really explore the possibility instead of just a 'what if?' thread. But the original thread topic got lost due to bunny trails. It's not your fault- I saw you make statements before about keeping it on topic so it was really the rest of us.

But no worries. I'm just cranky due to myself always being met with the proof proof proof and thought I'd be a pain by turning the tables. Sorry to have made you the victim of my vengeance.

Personally I think this is a great thread and merits further discussion.

Jesus as magician? To me magic/majik has occultic connations. Jesus was both healer and teacher as well as the impetus for a new way of worshipping God...being one that evolved into the christian faith. Perhaps some posters here would assert Jesus would have had knowledge of the Kaballah...and I would agree with them. Indeed, I think Jesus was most likely knowledgeable of the K'ballah as He certainly didn't live within a vacuum.

Jesus a teacher or practioner of the Kaballah?...no, I seriously doubt this as He warned against ANY form of divination, sooth-saying, etc. For example, the effective use of the K'ballah requires the practitioner to invoke one or several of the Angels (Mettatron being the head)...if I remember correctly) to effectuate the practitioners desired request. This flies in the face of Jesus' ministry....as we have read it recorded..."ask of The Father in MY Name and He will deny you nothing". It is to be understood that your will is to be aligned with the will of The Father. And not all requests/prayers are given immediate gratification!

Rather, Jesus promoted prayer. Jesus' very last words of encouragement to His disciples was to tell them that soon the Paraclete would be with them --"not wanting them to feel they were being left as orphans".

Pentecost was the last great manifestation that fell upon the disciples (via the Paraclete/The Holy Spirit) that endowed the disciples with gifts of prophesy and healing....that is, Healing with a capital H! This certainly precludes any use of ritual magic with its magical tomes and assorted tools. The Holy Spirit was seen by witnesses, at the time of Pentecost, descending upon the disciples and was described as " a tongue of flame"..... having alighted on the top of their heads.

Now, if Jesus used magic to bring about healings and resurrection(s) that means He would've invoked the/any powers OUTSIDE of Himself through ritual magic. It's my understanding that nowhere do we have sources (scriptural or secular) that intimates any such notion. The daily lives of the disciples and Jesus were recorded as being filled with incredible simplicity. They had no personal belongings and held any material items, such as food or alms to buy food, in common. No texts or tools of the trade used for ritual magic or divination was to be found within their wandering community.

On a side note, but most importantly, Jesus called upon The Father to bless His actions! And expressly invoked " yet, Thy will not Mine".

All in all it's an interesting discussion....

Jesus was not a magician in what we know as the occult/magical sense of the word. He "appeared" to be a magician when he performed miracles because the people of the day were accustomed to magicians, divination, and other sorts of occultic teachings.

Jesus' wonders were miracles performed through the power given to him from God and and as a God/Man. He was accused of being a magician because of the extent of knowledge the pagan people of the day had...it looked like magic to them. AND his own jewish leaders accused him of magic to further their agenda of persecution toward him. They wanted him to "go away" for lack of a better way to say it. Too many pagans and jews were converting to his teachings, which angered the Sanhedrin no end. The Sanhedrin wanted to be the one and only leaders of the jewish people of the day. They were afraid of Jesus' power.

reply to post by AshleyD


Aha, "blasphemy"....this is what the Levitical Priesthood accused Jesus of... they condemned His healings as being wrought through demons.

They brought their own condemnation of blasphemy down on their heads when they brought that accusation against Jesus. Their temple was utterly destroyed 70 years later and is described in scripture and secular texts.

It's amazing that these recorded incidents, leading up to and including the appearance and crucufixion of the Messianic Jew (Jesus), was fulfilled to the letter.

Originally posted by deenamarie53
To me magic/majik has occultic connations... Now, if Jesus used magic to bring about healings and resurrection(s) that means He would've invoked the/any powers OUTSIDE of Himself through ritual magic. It's my understanding that nowhere do we have sources (scriptural or secular) that intimates any such notion... They had no personal belongings and held any material items... No texts or tools of the trade used for ritual magic or divination was to be found within their wandering community.

Again, comparing our modern definition of “magic” and what the ancients would consider it to be is comparing apples and oranges. If a shaman produced an extract of willow bark to cure pain and couched the production in terms of “magic” it would have meant entirely something different to a modern person who equates it with the “magic’ of aspirin.

Jesus’ chroniclers may have not had recorded tricks or methods to achieve his cures but that does not prove he did not use “magic” tricks in order to achieve his results. He did say to his followers, on numerous occasions, that they didn’t understand the principles involved in an act or that they weren’t ready or worthy to receive certain knowledge. That may imply a lack of “spiritual” readiness or it may have implied a lack of actual knowledge of accepted and (now) commonplace principles. To Jesus and his followers it would have been closely guarded esoteric secrets. To our modern sensibility it would have just been “magic”.

reply to post by passenger



Interesting observations...

It reminds me of the time he healed the blind man.
John 9:

The neighbors therefore, and those who saw that he was blind before, said, "Isn't this he who sat and begged?" Others were saying, "It is he." Still others were saying, "He looks like him."
He said, "I am he." They therefore were asking him, "How were your eyes opened?"
He answered, "A man called Jesus made mud, anointed my eyes, and said to me, 'Go to the pool of Siloam, and wash.' So I went away and washed, and I received sight."

I have always wondered about the mud.



NOTE:I don't object to intelligent discussion on this topic. I just get offended when people act like he was doing card tricks or intensionally deceiving people.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by passenger

 

NOTE:I don't object to intelligent discussion on this topic. I just get offended when people act like he was doing card tricks or intensionally deceiving people.

Right. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Our modern, commonly accepted definition of “magic” as card tricks, smoke and mirrors doesn’t really fit what Jesus may have done. All I’m trying to convey is that he may have had special skills or knowledge that was perceived by those of his time as somehow “magic”. It doesn't mean he was deceptive or tricky the way we would define a modern magician. Today, we may look back and see him as deceiving the local rubes. But neither Jesus or his followers would have seen it that way. It’s sort of confusing because you have to acknowledge that both sides had different perspectives and then try to formulate an opinion based upon the dialogue. Even today it’s sometimes hard to understand the perspectives and expressions of foreign communication. We’re trying to interpret interactions from millennia ago that has gone through various mutilated translations. There ain’t no easy answer here.

Originally posted by passenger

Originally posted by deenamarie53
To me magic/majik has occultic connations... Now, if Jesus used magic to bring about healings and resurrection(s) that means He would've invoked the/any powers OUTSIDE of Himself through ritual magic. It's my understanding that nowhere do we have sources (scriptural or secular) that intimates any such notion... They had no personal belongings and held any material items... No texts or tools of the trade used for ritual magic or divination was to be found within their wandering community.

Again, comparing our modern definition of “magic” and what the ancients would consider it to be is comparing apples and oranges. If a shaman produced an extract of willow bark to cure pain and couched the production in terms of “magic” it would have meant entirely something different to a modern person who equates it with the “magic’ of aspirin.

Jesus’ chroniclers may have not had recorded tricks or methods to achieve his cures but that does not prove he did not use “magic” tricks in order to achieve his results. He did say to his followers, on numerous occasions, that they didn’t understand the principles involved in an act or that they weren’t ready or worthy to receive certain knowledge. That may imply a lack of “spiritual” readiness or it may have implied a lack of actual knowledge of accepted and (now) commonplace principles. To Jesus and his followers it would have been closely guarded esoteric secrets. To our modern sensibility it would have just been “magic”.

Nice post there. Actually, I don't think it's a matter of apples n oranges, really.

The Kaballah is rooted in Hebrew mysticism...aka divination, sorcery, magic, etc. Its practice was never mainstream and frowned upon by their own Levitical priesthood. It took away power from the priests, don't ya see, lol, and was viewed as a way of curcumventing (priests), prastising (sp) one's own way of worship, extra-curricular to temple worship....at least this is how I understand it.

So this form of magical practice, though ancient, IS relative to contemporary times as the end results are for the same effects; bringing about ones own will into ones physical realm of experience--for ones own purposes....be it maleffecient or benefecient.

Oh, aspirin is not magic but science---but I see what you mean with the comparison. Indeed, aspirin was magic to the natives of America. They didn't have the means to explain the wonderful after effects its ingestion brought about. But he commonality here is that the "magic" was in the ingestion of a "sacred" food (tool). There's a heavy element of superstition here and was pronounced as magic.

Hmmm, closely guarded esoteric secrets...what can I say other than what I have learned through study of the scripture. There were NO secrets only those things that were to remain undisclosed "at this time" and to those supplicants unable to process the "meat" of His teachings. Most of the disciples were pretty naive themselves....not understanding the teachings of their Master at the time. Jesus even commented on their dim-wittedness!

Yup, non-canonical scriptures makes mention of some esoteric teachings---those not meant for seekers who are unprepared to hear (understand) what the inherrent message is. This holds true today!

Our modern sensibilities, I know what you mean here. Contemporary society has entered the age of reason, what with all the wonderful developments in science and research. Also, I'd like to think we've reached a more profound avenue (behavioral sciences) through which we better understand our contemporary society. Although I don't think this is the case....sigh.

The bible was constructed as a way of controlling the masses, to keep them in check. It reads as a list of things you should and shouldn't do, all phrased in a colourful (and contradictory) story of a select few characters, families, and people.

Anyone who reads anything more into the bible than that are ignoring logical analysis and grasping for straws they want to believe exist, even when there is zero evidence. If you look up the word "delusional" in the dictionary, you'll find a great description of those folks.

reply to post by dave420


Your explanation of "controlling the masses" is fundamentally TRUE! Imagine the need to form some sort of collective understanding as to what the "rules" are to be (in the first place) and HOW to go about keeping the rule of community.

It's a pretty basic form of governance over typically unrully masses of (then nomadic) people.

Where is the error of adopting as your own, for the well-being of community (and your Self) the Laws governing behaviour?

Wherein is the danger/fallacy for keeping the "Golden Rule" to "Do unto others as you would have done unto yourselves".

Interesting viewpoint you have on all this , though. Thanks

reply to post by dave420


Hey, can you save your preaching for another thread?

"Controlling the masses."

"Ignoring logical analysis."

"Grasping at straws."

"Delusional."

All of the above been said before and nothing to do with the topic. We're discussing whether or not Jesus was a magician. Not how the Bible is a tool for controlling the masses or how Christians are nutties.

reply to post by AshleyD


That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion

reply to post by dave420


Just one more quick note.

The dictionary (along with practitioners of the profession of psychotherapy defines via the DSM) for mental aberrations that the word "delusion" is a fixed false belief and is used in everyday language to describe a belief that is either false, fanciful or derived from deception.

Call me crazy, but the moral guidelines (originally dispensed by Moses in the form of the ten commandments) with it's subsequent off-shoots of Law through the Torah (which is another story for a different thread :duh...was much needed and requested by the acient Hebrew in the desert during their diaspora of 40 years. It wasn't to be the last time the Jews were to be dispersed....if you get my drift.

Call me crazy or not...where is deception in play here?

reply to post by deenamarie53


The delusion is the belief the bible is anything other than a very old work of fiction. It makes many, many claims that are clearly false, and has not one shred of evidence supporting its supernatural origins. Yet, even with all the information we have today, people claim the bible is true because it itself claims it was written by god. Which is about as delusional as it gets

Originally posted by dave420
reply to post by AshleyD

 

That's my whole point. This thread is discussing whether a fictional character was a magician. It's like asking whether Han Solo was a vegetarian or if Gandalf would have approved of microwave ovens. It's an absolutely pointless discussion

Actually, the whole point being discussed here is one that addresses Jesus as magician OR Messiah (being that He did miraculous "things" ie: raising the dead, healing of the lame, casting out of demons, etc)...

We're not attempting to prove or disprove.....just discussing His purported methods of doing what He did.

Do ya have any theories regarding magic or miracles or are you just dropping by to say "hi!".

reply to post by deenamarie53


I think it was aliens from Nibiru who did it.

hE WAS JUST A MAN.....just a human being with divine knowledge that has been kept from us all along. he learned the mystic schools and the language of light, then he returned understanding that you cant just teach these things right out to people because of the forces of control and their own slavery to the way they think. So he taught how to love and care for each other and look for reason and the truth by not accepting the authority that was laid before them. People are blind but not because they cant see....because there are so many damn walls both internal and external which we are taught that we cant run right through them. There are so many illusions of legitimacy that the truth doesnt set you free becaus4e when you reveal it, like jesus did, those who wanted to keep it underwraps will kill you.

It is important for the world to see jesus as a divine prohpet when really he was just a man.

...Could be! They are waskally-wabbits!!!!

Now, on a more serious note; do "they" follow any rules of governance, either by magic or by miracles. And...who do "they" believe in?