Was Jesus a Magician?, page 2

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reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 03:08 PM by Bigwhammy

Originally posted by RedDragon
reply to post by Bigwhammy

If the ressurection really happened, there are about 100 different historians of the time that would have recorded it. They didn't. The Bible is only for ignorant people and is not a history book at all.

[edit on 2/24/08 by RedDragon]

Thanks for the post RedDragon. You are truly a scholar and a gentlemen.
Which 100 historians would that be? You didn't name a single historian?

How about this one? There are many more.

IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH (? - ~100 A.D) Ignatius was a Bishop of Antioch reported to have been appointed to
his position by Peter of whom he was a disciple. He is also believed to be a disciple of Paul and John. Ignatius
was arrested by the Romans and executed as a martyr in the arena. Even though his testimony would ultimately
lead to his death, Ignatius was adamant about the things he witnessed. He reinforces early Christian beliefs in
the letters he penned while in prison. Even when execution was imminent, Ignatius refused to recant his faith.

"Jesus Christ who was of the race of David, who was the Son of Mary, who was truly born and ate and drank, was
truly persecuted under Pontius Pilate, was truly crucified and died in the sight of those in heaven and on earth
and those under the earth. Who moreover was truly raised from the dead, His father having raised Him, who in
the like fashion will so raise us also who believe in Him." Trallians

source

[edit on 2/24/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 04:52 PM by mrwupy

Originally posted by metro

So you're wrong saying Jesus was a Pagan. Guess you'll have to find another angle to spout your biggotry.

Now, now, Just because we disagree on some things doesn't make me a bigot, It just means we disagree. Debate and attack the message, not the messenger.

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 05:04 PM by banyan

Originally posted by Ahabstar
For the non-believers I will modify the question, would you suddenly recant and believe or would you just write it off as momentary lapse of judgement, shoot him the bird and be own your way laughing at your mistaken identity?

recant what? does me being a non-believer suddenly allocate wrong deeds to my name? why would i give the bird to jesus...i am not a mean person.

if i did figure out it was jesus [he'd be a white, bearded, handsome fellow right?

], i would ask him what's up and if he's sick of people saying things about him or doing things in his name without his consent or approval. i'd then give him a new pair of sandals, probably chaco flips [since those are the comfiest], size 10.

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 05:28 PM by sumperson

If I saw jesus it wouldn't be a big deal flippin him the bird. If he was really jesus he would know that flipping the bird is just an action, a mear motion of the hand, it means nothing and therefore deserves no reaction.

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 05:28 PM by sumperson

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 06:48 PM by Infadel

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
The grandest trick of all was resurrecting from the dead.

I guess the Roman soldiers were in on the trick. They beat him mercilessly, put a crown of thorns on his head, nailed him to the cross, stuck a sword in his side, watched him die, and threw him in a tomb.

WTF? no 1 even came close to his skin with a sword (every 1 packed 1, it wouldent be true to say a sword never came near him)....he got shived with a spear....i dont see any swords.

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 08:36 PM by Young minded old soul

Hey ya know what I may get laughed off here for saying; Yes I believe Jesus was a Magician. The thing is he was not the type of stage magician you may think. If it's to be held true that he was a Jew and that the Hebrew faith was and is based on the Caballa ( tree of life ). Then that being said the modern Hebrew faiths of Moses, Solomon, and hence Jesus were and still are based on the teaching that Moses learned as an initiated Royal high priest of Eygpt. This initiated highest rank of priesthood was infact an initiantion into high magic. The spells and teachings of knowledge such as the book of the dead. To this day these lessons are still taught in the highest orders of "secret" societies and in magic rituals of the Heremetic order and the such. Think about it long enough you may come to realize that these "priests" were infact the scientist and physists of their time. ( If physics is the true deffinition of everything. Which I don't believe, but do believe they had a much better understanding of the physical universe then than we do now. ) Iniatiated into what anyone who wouldn't know what powers "physics" holds would see it as magic. Magic deals in demensional plains and demons ( fallen angels ) and angels of God and energy. Say I'm correct in saying that Jesus was initiated into these learnings during his stay in the Qumaran and Nassorean communities on the Dead Sea. Where infact he was their religious leader
( or spiritual / magical ). That being the case he would have been the highest initiated of the teachings therefore a magician of sorts to the non-initiated. He was the most enlightened being of his life time.
Maybe I over analized the Sh*t out of this, but I'm confident I'm right. NOt many ways to prove I'm wrong since he died almost 2000 years ago.

Would love to hear people's takes on this.

reply posted on 24-2-2008 @ 10:23 PM by passenger

I always found it curious that Jesus performed “miracles” using different methodologies: In some cases He merely “spoke a word” (Mark 1:42), John 11:41-44), in others he instructed others to perform certain rituals, in others He himself took certain definite physical actions (Mark 8:23) or required physical “props” (Mark 6:30-) to achieve the miracle. In some cases he deliberately issued commands of healing and in others it “just flowed out of him” (Mark 5:21-)*
I’ve always wondered about this. Why would Jesus be able to heal one person with just a word and in another case have to use spit and mud? Why would he not use the same technique in every instance? Why would he tell the disciples on some occasions that certain pre-existing conditions were necessary to perform certain miraculous acts? Seems to me, that if He really were God, then He should just be able to do everything with a word.

* Apologies here. There are just too many possible citations from the New Testament to list and cross-reference them all. But this gives some basics.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 06:07 AM by dave420

Jesus was as real as Harry Potter. It's a nice story, but there's no proof any of it happened. Not that that fact will have any effect on Jesus's gang, as they've clearly given up on logic and entrust everything in the Guy-Floating-Around-On-A-Cloud.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 02:05 PM by Enthralled Fan

Why would a son of God have to be a magician? He was asked to prove himself to the masses who had no faith. Only God was supposed to be able to perform unbelievable "tricks."

He had to resort to lowering himself to being like a magician to get people to have faith.

If he were to show up in this day and age, he would be asked to do the same things.

It all boils down to faith. There is nothing magical about that.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:08 PM by tartar

He used Ki energy for 100% He was no god of the son LOL.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:38 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by Infadel

Congratulations you really got me there. You are correct. They stabbed him in the side with a spear. The thing that is so weird about that is they usually broke the legs of the people being crucified. That was the common practice. It was part of the procedure.

But they didn't... did you know there another part of this great magic trick?

Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35 The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken," 37 and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."

John 19 (NIV)

See in the Old Testament thousands of years before they crucified him they prophecised that the sin offering would have no broken bones.

Exodus 12:46 (NIV) "... Do not break any of the bones."

Numbers 9:12 (NIV) "They must not leave any of it till morning or break any of its bones. When they celebrate the Passover, they must follow all the regulations."

Psalms 34:20 (NIV) "he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken."

He was already dead and he "fixed it" so they wouldn't break his legs!!!!

Now that's a great trick!

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:49 PM by AshleyD

Originally posted by Infadel
WTF? no 1 even came close to his skin with a sword (every 1 packed 1, it wouldent be true to say a sword never came near him)....he got shived with a spear....i dont see any swords.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
Congratulations you really got me there. You are correct. They stabbed him in the side with a spear.

Don't you just adore the nit picking semantics police?

They can't refute anything of substance so they argue the pronunciation of tomato.

[edit on 2/25/2008 by AshleyD]

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 04:08 PM by sumperson

Can we get back to the main question at hand here? Was Jesus a Magician? yes or no.. that is the question tell me why.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 04:21 PM by Enthralled Fan

reply to post by sumperson

No. He wasn't a magician. He performed miracles. Now if you believe miracles are equal to the tricks of a magician, then that might be what he is to you.

I chose to believe raising a person from the dead, or walking on water are miracles, so to me, he was not a magician.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 04:40 PM by banyan

the biblical accounts of the miracles jesus performed were from believing perspectives, who did not question whether or not the miracles were anything but.

as people have said, the miracles in question can be easily replicated, especially considering the gullibility of the common or poor person back then who had no reason to not believe in something that would benefit them. to the people he wasn't a magician, but with hindsight, he could have been.

but the miracles could actually have been miracles and not tricks or cons. we only have a limited and biased account of said events. if you trust in the bible, you believe they are miracles and god is not a magician. if you do not trust in the bible, it could easily have been a dooping session.

this cannot be proved, just argued.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 05:11 PM by Nohup

According to the stories, Jesus apparently spent a lot of time impressing people with healing tricks, exorcisms, and the occasional raising some poor slob from the dead. Sometimes people would get a pleasant philosophical speech, but I get the feeling most of them came for the show or to be healed.

As for the resurrection... It's an interesting story, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in it just because a few kooks got killed for supporting it. I seem to recall a bunch of people who killed themselves because they thought they were going on a ride on a comet. That didn't make the story any more true.

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 05:33 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by banyan

Not all accounts are believing perspective from the Bible.

First century Jewish (not a Christian) historian Josephus said,

About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. ...more

source

Then there's that pesky little problem of fufilling prophecies that are thousands of years old -- even after you're dead.

Maybe it was a mirror?

[edit on 2/25/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 05:47 PM by Bigwhammy

reply to post by Nohup

The fruit loops on the comet weren't first hand witnesses to a miracle - entirely different scenario.

The apostles really had nothing to gain by lying. There testimonies only caused them pain and hardship. How come no one came forward and gave a away the trick while they being tortured? Where did his body go? Never found it. The Jews would have kept a very good record of that had it happened. It didn't...

Buddah has a grave, so does L Ron Hubbard, so does Mohamed, so does Harry Houdini.

Jesus doesn't.

a good trick indeed...

reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 10:12 PM by banyan

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
reply to post by banyan

Not all accounts are believing perspective from the Bible.

yes, i know this. i was only referring to biblical references and them being biased, because they are the only references that really matter to those who believe god was anything more than a magician. that is the whole point. citing scriptural correlations from old and new testaments is the only defense that could hold any validity to the believers.

Then there's that pesky little problem of fufilling prophecies that are thousands of years old -- even after you're dead.

humans know to fulfill prophecies and so fulfill prophecies. do you not think jesus knew the ot and the prophecies that must come to be true? of course he did, and i am sure his followers did as well. just like we know of the end time prophecies, as mentioned in daniel and revelations. we know israel's gotta be around, so luckily it became a nation again in 1948. sure, some things may be out of human control, but do not be so naive to think that those believing aren't actively looking for ways to make prophecies come true.

it's like with the 2012 theory, if it is a spiritual awakening, how do we know that just by everyone thinking that this will happen, we are not awakening ourselves by preparation of said event alone, therefore fulfilling the prophecy by merely mentioning it?

but jesus was clever enough to not mention what year or time he was coming back, therefore self-perpetuating his prophecy through many lifes and deaths of generations upon generations. 2000 some years is a long time to wait for a second coming of christ. but the jewish people have been waiting longer, i suppose.

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