Fear, or Fantasy

I've been tinking about those of us who make extensive preperations for sit-x, and wondering about our motivations.
I figure we fall into two broad catagories.
The first FEAR is most commonly and easily admited to.
Simply defined as fear for ones own safety and survival in any or all situations that could be life threatening.
The least of which is fear of a natural disastor which would displace or incapacitate society as we know it.
The most major being an extended period of civil unrest leading to a complete breakdown of society due to human intervention.

I think the second broad catagory is much less often admited to, and much more complex.
I call this the FANTASY motivation which is defined as wishful thinking about society reverting to a more primitive level.
I think it's a small step between those who fondly read or study a more primitive time such as the late 1700's and those who prepare for a time when there will be fewer people, less regulation, and generaly relief from the stress and complexity of todays society.
I would suggest that those who strive to find and establish a more self sufficient life style are to some degree retreating from the world as it has become.
In our everyday life we are bombarded by stress whether it's the stress of our personal economics, or the stress of being caught in congested traffic, or the stress of governments ever increasing draconian laws and regulations.
It's no wonder people yearn for relief from these stressors
For myself I have always lived with survival whether it was surviving in a combat zone, or the survival of a childhood learning to live close to the earth while hunting, fishing, traping and gardening, to provide for the family's survival.
My personal survival gear is basicly hunting and camping gear, run amok.
I became actively involved in talking, teaching, and writing about survival issues as a direct result of Hurricane Katrina, and watching people literaly die due to ignorance of how to provide the basics to sustain life.
In the spirit of being totaly honest and candid, I do however have to admit that a part of me almost looks forward to a earth changing cataclysmic event that would drasticly reduce the population and effectively eliminate goverment .
I'm fully aware of this contradiction in my thinking.
On one hand I might day dream about sit - x, and on the other I try to do what i can to assure that more people would survive.
I don't think either perspective is negative.
There is nothing wrong or shameful about fear. It's a natural reaction to a threatening situation.
I also don't see anything wrong with the fantasy of a much more simplified life even though to achieve that fantasy we must first accept the death of millions of our fellow human beings.
I don't think the casual survivalist fits either of these two general catagories. I think they are just being prudent.
It's when your preperations progress from a BOB or larder to provide for yourself and family to buying an alternative survival site and making massive preperations that one of the two general motives might be in effect.
There is a poster that consistantly asks us Why we strive so hard to survive and I think he/she is asking an honest and applicable question relating to our motivation.
Thats why I'm asking in the double anonymity of the net and a forum site, if we could honestly answer whether it is FEAR, or FANTASY that motivates us.

1ShotDeal, once again you put so well what's been on my mind. This subject has been the cause of a whole lot of soul searching for me. I hate complications and red tape in life. In my lifetime I've seen the world population more than triple. I remember how it was in simpler times so I have that basis for comparison. For myself, personally I long for the world I believed I was growing up to. I wonder now if even then it was only an illusion.

It would seem that when we acknowledge the great loss of life that is most likely in our not too distant future, it's always the faceless zombies who need weeded out anyway in our estimation who are the ones to die. It never seems to be our friends and family. I'm afraid the reality will be quite different. Anyone with a heart who survives what we most likely face will be struggling through the greatest grief imaginable as they work to survive. Many will succumb to such overwhelming grief. I'm old enough to be philosophical about my own death and I don't really fear it that much but I have serious misgivings about how well I'll handle the despair that is sure to come to all survivors.

I read the arguments made by some that life won't be worth living then but I just can't accept that with so many variables. They may indeed be right and if they are I may consider throwing in the towel at that time but for now there are just too many unknowns to give up. All I can really say for sure is that this thing is way bigger than me. It's not about me. I'm much too curious to give up on being here to witness it though.

To answer your question, for me it's some of both, but we have to be really careful with that fantasy thing. That just may be the gate to Hell.

Why does it have to be either way. there are as many reasons as there are people. We cant simplify this. We are human we are not simple, the answer to your question is not going to be simple.

Simplifying things does make them easy to understand but what if in the Simplifying you loose the real answer.

Depends on the case, location etc. There are as many reasons as people was a very good response.

My advice is this: It never hurts to be ready for an earthquake, storm etc.

However, if you live on a flood plain get ready right now. the reason is this. A flood plain will always do the same thing, flood. Get your hundred year local maps and be sure you understand where all the high ground is in case the water comes too fast to get out. Leave a hatchet or axe in your attic hidden under insulation, and be certain you can round up kids and pets and go quickly. Know the location of all dams upstream.

If you live in an area that is prone to fire, throw away all your small garden hoses and buy 3/4" extra long ones, and the extra long shooting non adjustable brass nozzles that give accuracy and go 30' out of the end of your hose. Have break away bags ready and a fire box with you valuable papers as well as food and water if you don't know how long you will be away or where you will need to go.

If you prepare for sitx don't do so much for that that you lose sight of the things going on in the world on a daily basis. We used to hear on the news about all kinds of events but now these things are becoming so common on a local basis that we only hear about them localy.

Global warming means two things in our lifetime. Places that used to get snow will get far more rain for longer periods, and places that are dry will get far less rain than they ever got. Those things are panning out in the rainguage and shouldn't be ignored.

Don't loose sight of the forest for the trees.

reply to post by 1ShotDeal


I think this sort of preparation is hard on a persons emotions. The thought that a partial extinction of life can take place has to be outweighed by the thought you want to try to make a way into the future for you and yours.

There can be no guilt here. This desire to continue on, is inside every healthy normal person. Do not feel guilty for a desire that is common to every normal human being. Make a way for the youth if that is all you can do. Feel no guilt, its not yours to bear.

Originally posted by 1ShotDeal

I would suggest that those who strive to find and establish a more self sufficient life style are to some degree retreating from the world as it has become. . . .

Very perceptive. For me personally, my journey began purely with survivalism, as I talked with survivors of a Texas hurricane who'd been traumatized by looting and water shortages that weren't ever televised.

I made a lot of preparations for Y2K as well. But by that point, I'd developed my first law of preparedness: unless you are preparing for a specific event that is obviously on the horizon, only make preparations that will serve you if disaster doesn't strike.

Since that non-event, my family and I have begun choosing a simpler life-style, one where we control access to food, security, etc., rather than trusting it to strangers. we have discovered that we have a huge "hippie" streak; I never knew I'd enjoy hunting and gardening so much. The wife enjoys our preparation projects, because the TV is off, and the whole family is acting as a unit.

we aren't "retreating" from what the world is becoming; we are merely being selective as to what parts of "popular culture" we participate in. We simply insist on making crucial decisions for ourselves.

I intend, by 2011, to produce much of the food my family eats, regardless of the state of the economy. We also educate our own children---this makes sense, because the wife and I both have more education than most of the licensed teachers in the public school system.

We eat in restaurant to celebrate, not out of convenience. We use banks on our own terms; we no longer trust strangers to guard our wealth. But you get right to these points in your post:

In our everyday life we are bombarded by stress whether it's the stress of our personal economics, or the stress of being caught in congested traffic, or the stress of governments ever increasing draconian laws and regulations. . . .

See, I think that modern western culture has become consumed by the economic side of life. The problem with this is, every time you interact with the dominant culture, someone makes a profit off of you. If you don't prepare, then most of your labor and efforts in life go to making other people rich.

Education is a major expense.

A car for every family member is a major expense.

Lavish vacations, with lake houses, jet skis and motorbikes: all major expenses.

A job in the city, with its hour-long commute is the opposite of self-sufficiency.

In each one of those transactions, I'd challenge you to consider who actually profits from your choices.


Fear or Fantasy? Neither. For us, it's a question of rational decision making. What a great economist called "enlightened self-interest."

.

reply to post by angryamerican



Angry, perhaps i failed to make my first post clear.
I agree there are as many reasons as there are people. What I'm inquiring about and speculating about is motivation.
For instance one family might prepare due to fear of catostrophic weather, while a neighbor might prepare due to a fear of economic collapse.
What they share is thier motivation, which is fear.
Now those same people can make identicle preperations with thier third neighbor who is disgruntled about the government, crowded stores, and an unfair ban on smoking in public. This third party may actualy enjoy getting prepared as a re-enforcment of a sit-x fantasy that would eliminate the sources of his agrivation.
To simplify even further and hopefuly not lose the intent of the thread,
You can prepare because you fear the end is comming, or prepare because you might wish the end were comming, and preparing while wishing makes the wish feel as if it's comming true.
Thats why i stated that the second would be the more complex and more difficult to admit to.
I hope this clarifies it better.

Originally posted by 1ShotDeal
I think the second broad catagory is much less often admited to, and much more complex.
I call this the FANTASY motivation which is defined as wishful thinking about society reverting to a more primitive level.

I often find myself imagining what I would do in a survivalist scenario and I wonder if we confuse the minds natural ablility to focus on survial through evolution. To clarify, maybe we our focusing or "fantasizing" about the situation actually accuring is just the minds way of preparing us for what it subconsiously knows is coming. Maybe our minds sense some sort of impending doom the way some animals can detect a natural disaster before it happens. And our minds are just running through the scenario for us a survival mechanism. Just a thought.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Dr,
Thanks for your participation on this thread.
I agree with alot of what you have to say, If you have read any of my other posts, my past life is becomming a matter of public record LOL
I was raised in old school ways, by old school people. consequently some of my ideas are also a bit anachronistic.
For instance I don't own a credit card. ( hard to believe I know LOL )
My thinking is that if it will take me 6 months to pay for it, it will only take me 6 months to save up for it. Plus i save the interest and have 6 months in case i change my mind.
The only time I have used credit is when i bought property, and only then because of the tax advantages.
I don't know that I chose a simpler life stlye as much as I inherited it. I just don't like alot of bells and whistles or frills clutering my life.
I think some people feel life would be simpler, but they haven't dealt with the realities of day to day struggle to survive.
The reason for this post is that I was contemplating my own motivations, which led to wondering about others

Aren't we all preparing for some sort of survival situation? You go to work to put food on the table because you don't like to feel hungry, right? I'm with Doc, I prefer not to rely on a fragile just in time logistics system that the efficiency experts love to tout. I've lived in or near four of the ten largest urban areas in the the US and can tell you that they are not healthy places to live, physically, mentally or spiritually. Due to the economic situation I'm in I'm forced to live near a large urban area but as soon as possible I'm getting out of the area. If I can find meaningful employment in a small town I'd leave tomorrow but I've learned my lesson in buying a home: buy and pay off the land first and build the house later. If you can do that, you'll be light years ahead of the mass of humanity that's will be scrambling to survive any future calamity.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Since that non-event, my family and I have begun choosing a simpler life-style, one where we control access to food, security, etc., rather than trusting it to strangers. we have discovered that we have a huge "hippie" streak; I never knew I'd enjoy hunting and gardening so much. The wife enjoys our preparation projects, because the TV is off, and the whole family is acting as a unit.

we aren't "retreating" from what the world is becoming; we are merely being selective as to what parts of "popular culture" we participate in. We simply insist on making crucial decisions for ourselves.

I intend, by 2011, to produce much of the food my family eats, regardless of the state of the economy. We also educate our own children---this makes sense, because the wife and I both have more education than most of the licensed teachers in the public school system.

We eat in restaurant to celebrate, not out of convenience. We use banks on our own terms; we no longer trust strangers to guard our wealth.

Loud Applause for stepping up to the plate Brother.

There is more applied wisdom here than what I have heard in a very long time. Hats off to you for doing what you know in your heart is the right thing to do.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by Illahee]

Why to prepare? Well why not?

There is definately the "fear of scarcity" that comes into play in any preparation scenario. Far too many folks have that denial attitude that
says that they will be ok "IF" something happens. I have the attitude that "God" helps those who help themselves. I also try to prepare in such a way that I can help as many others as possible as well even those who figured there would be "someone" that would be able to help them if they needed it. Ignorance is bliss for some, but not for us. We know that it is not a matter of If, but When.

Is it the 20ft snow drifts keeping you in place, or a mad tornado that wipes out a neighborhood or another Katrina? The need to prepare isn't in question anymore for anyone.

Is it from fear or just a matter of "common sense" that unfortunately is way too uncommon anymore.

Of course I prepare because I have a fear of being thirsty, hungry, cold and wet. I am fortunate enough that I have never had to be homeless, but I did experience having to go without food and I swore it would never happen again. I was laid off from a factory job with very good pay in the early 80's and even though I was more than willing to work and do any job, even applied to fast food joints - no one would hire me due to my previous pay level and the obvious drop to min wage. It was a very difficult time for me physically and emotionally and yes the fear of scarcity is a motivating factor today.

Is there also a wish for a change to a simpler life and society - absolutely. Part of my desire to have that began 10yrs ago when I left the east and moved to the rockies to find a nice rural place to live a simpler life. I found my piece 5yrs ago and as an above poster said I'm
paying off my land (owner hold and no banks -max. 5yrs to go) and then worrying about a house.
I now have a couple of campers there and go on weekends when I can as it is about 3 1/2 hrs drive from my rented home. It is camping on steroids off-the-grid and very livable if needed. One piece of my American Dream at a time.

Those are my motivations and although there is definately a fear factor involved I still think it is more of a personal choice for life and some personal sense of liberty than anything else.

reply to post by Earthmama4
Thank you for your very candid responce, and thank you for " getting" what I was akwardly trying to ask.
I kinda think only those who have dealt with real deprivation can realisticly speak about it.
It has been my experience that the more a life lesson hurts, the more important the lesson is.
As alot of pundits have never learned there is a huge difference between an opinion, and an informed opinion .
Thank you so much for your input here.

Earthmama,
Your post reminded me of an old joke.
There was once an old fella who lived in a rural area that was visited by a major flood.
As flood waters rose to his doorstep a boat came by and offerd to evacuate the old fella. he sent them away saying " I have been a good christian my whole life, and God will take care of me "
By te next day water had risen to the point that the old fella had to move to the second floor of his house. At this time a second boat came by and offered to evacuate him, to which he replied " I have been a good Chiristian all my life and God will take care of me "
The third day of the flood waters riseing caused the old man to move to the roof of his house, where upon a helecopter came by and offered to evacuate him. Once again he sent them away saying " I've been a good christian all my life and God will take care of me "
Unfortunately the water kept rising and the old fella eventauly drowned.
When he got to heaven he was quite put out, and the first thing he did was berate St Peter.
He said " St Peter, I have been a good christian my whole life, I never missed a sunday going to church, I always paid what i could to the church, and now when I realy needed help, you let me down"
St Peter looked down at the old man and said " My son, I don't know how you could say we let you down. We sent you two row boats and a helecopter "

I guess part of me resents the question because it has been asked in various ways thousand of times. Its not a easy question for me to answer with mere words. Its not as simple as fear. all tho fear has a part in it. its not as easy as fantasy all tho that too has a part in it. its cant be explained by hope all tho hope has a place there too.

I have sat here at my desk and ponder the question many times. then I glanse up at the picture of my kids with there grand mother before she passed. my wife is there as well. Every thing in the picture is there except me. of course we all know I was taking the picture but I am not in the picture. I have spent hour in front of this picture and most of the time I dont even notice it. It has been on all my various things I have called my desk sense My first place freshley dishchared from the army to the present day. but when I question myself thats when I notice it every time.

What this picture represents to me is the reason. in this one picture it is all there. The reasons why I do the things I do. fear, fantasy, and hope. but mainly hope. So I cannot simplifie it more then that. My family is all The hope the fear and the fantasy. anger is there as well. Anger that we are forced to prepare to live for the future that in its self doesn't always allow much living today.

See what I mean it cant be simplified to just one pat answer., at least for me any way.

One more thought.

Part of my interest in survival/self-sufficiency comes from my background in anthropology.

Studying ancient cultures in the Middle East showed me that humanity has been on the brink of extinction for most of it's existence. Most of your ancestors were hungry for at least a portion of their lives. Many of their neighbors died in wars, famines, and plagues.

Currently, working in the financial industry, I have become aware of the alternating pendulum-swings of alternat "boom" and "bust" cycles. And not just in capitalists states, but in ALL patterns of human distributions.

You know how you can tell you are ripe for a downturn? It happens when the economic people believe they have "escaped the market cycle." Their mantra, right before a bust, is always "this time, it's different."

They said that in 1928 on the NYSE. They said it when Lenin took charge of the SU, or Hitler and Mussolini came to power. They said it right before the market collapses that ended the Gilded Age. They said it in venice, in 1318, right as the Black Death took hold.

It's never different.

Did yoiu know that 10% of all humans who have ever lived, have died of malaria? With that in mind, do you know how to prevent malaria, without any government assistance??

Did you know that in most wars, 3 times as many people die of dysentery, as are casualties of violence? Could you even diagnose scarlet fever or amoebic dysentery, if your tribe began to manifest suspicious symptoms?

Or that a US certificate of deposit, although "insured," can also be seized by the fed during a "time of national crisis," and needn't be repaid for up to TEN years???

Did you know that most people in the developing world prefer gemstones over gold and silver, as "survival money?" It's because, if they are mugged, they can swallow the gems, and keep their wealth safe from most bandits. Has that ever entered into your own preparations?


None of those ideas are fantasy. they are just facts. You may say that none of them apply to Americans. But all of them, ALL of them, applied to your grandparents.

Who here believes that suddenly, in the 21st century, we've escaped epidemics, wars, and financial panics? I say we may have just lived through a lull. But this time, it's NOT different.

It's never different. At least not for long.


All the best.

.

reply to post by angryamerican



Angry,
Thank you for that very personal insight.
My appologies if my ponderings offends you. That was not my intent.
When I'm thinking about these subjects, and debating whether they will make a good thread, the yard stick I use is whether it is a subject, that if explored, might help some one new to our topics.
Just as it is important to examine how we prepare, I think it is equaly important to examine why we prepare.
Although, as some have said, it can be an enjoyable hobby, it is not a game, and could possibly have deadly consequences.
I think anyone new to prepareing themselves or thier families, should understand that we are discussing Life or death subjects.
The world today is filled with things to entertain us. At the same time mass media is manipulated to cause people a long list of things to be afraid of.
The only thing I know of that can counter the fear propoganda is the security they can derive from getting prpared and being prepared.
As much as the pysical preperations can help them to survive a sit x, the mental preperations can help them to survive the propoganda of fear mentality.
Again thank you for opening up, and once again my oppologies if I touched a nerve.

reply to post by dr_strangecraft


Dr,
Thanks for those insights.
I had a very dear friend who had obtained his PHD in Paleoanthropology.
He always had a unique perspective on the " human condition" and I enjoyed many a great evening of good conversation irrigated with a single malt, and a decent cigar.
I was lucky enough to absorb some of his knowledge by association and osmosis.
He was killed in Afganistan and I miss his companionship and his perspective.
Thank you for reminding me.
On the subject of economics, I recently read an article about how the treasury department could declare martial law in the event of a catostrophic economic collapse. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that subject.

Originally posted by 1ShotDeal

I enjoyed many a great evening of good conversation irrigated with a single malt, and a decent cigar.

What sorts? My favorites are probably the glenmorangie for speyside, or aberfeldy 21 for highland. Keep it warm with a park lane or maybe a Royal Jamaica in the Maduro wrapper.

On the subject of economics, I recently read an article about how the treasury department could declare martial law in the event of a catostrophic economic collapse. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that subject.

The government can do anything they want, because they claim a monopoly on the legitimate use of force. It's as simple as that. Is, was, and ever shall be. Constitutions, Charters and the like are simply a guidebook for governmental etiquette. When their interests become threatened, governors can become very rude indeed.

The real (as opposed to legal) restraint on government action is the response of its bond holders. The true reason that america is the world's super-power is actually because the USA has never defaulted on a bond payment, stretching all the way back to the previous regime, under the articles of confederation. It's even printed on the greenback: "the full faith and credit of the United States." It is the real leash on governmental misdeeds. If they screw that up, their power to govern will evaporate like morning dew in the sunrise. talk about the emperor's new clothes!


all the best.

No you have not offended me in any way. I must apologize if I gave that impression. I believe it probably came from this line.

I guess part of me resents the question because it has been asked in various ways thousand of times.

Poor choice of words on my part. Let me elaborate on that line a bit. Resent was the word I used when it should have been frustrated. The worst part is I am not frustrated with it being asked on ATS or Simple Survival. its the every day Joe. especially the ones I work with. Sometimes its the same people who ask it over and over again. They just don't get it, it seems as tho they want to but something is holding them back so they keep asking. So Its I who owe you an apology for a poor choice of words.