More [personal] Rapture thoughts. Sorry, I know you're all sick of it.

NOTE: Yes, this topic has been brought up oodles of times on ATS/BTS and surely you are all sick of talking about it. My apologies. I'm actually making this thread for my own sanity to organize my thoughts on the pretribulation rapture in one place. If you'd like to share your thoughts, refute my opinion, or ignore this thread then please do so.

NOTE: For this thread the term rapture will be referring to a pretribulation rapture.

NOTE: It gets exhausting being accused repeatedly of being a false prophet, liar, confused, etc. I do not believe in the rapture because someone told me to, due to tradition, or because a demon told me through a ouija board conversation (Yes, rapture adherents do receive the strangest of accusations). It is something I researched and put together through scripture and early church writings. All other views are welcome in this thread if you are not exhausted on the subject as long as they are respectful.

REFUTING COMMON ANTI-RAPTURE MYTHS

CLAIM: The word rapture is not mentioned in the Bible.
ANSWER: Yes and no. The word rapture is not found in any English translations. In the original Greek, the word is harparzo. The phrase rapture comes from the Latin Vulgate translation and the word rapturo. In English versions the translation is given as caught up.

CLAIM: The concept of the rapture is mentioned nowhere in the Bible.
ANSWER: This is not true. The rapture is most certainly mentioned in the Bible but the argument surrounds the timing of the rapture in regards to the tribulation. SEE: I Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 and I Corinthians 15:50-53.

CLAIM: The rapture was never taught before John Darby and Margaret McDonald.
ANSWER: The earliest known extrabiblical reference that I am aware of relating to the pretribulation rapture is found in either the sermon of Ephraim (4th century A.D.) or pseudo Ephraim (7th century A.D.):

"Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms the world? ...All the saints and the elect of God are gathering together before the tribulation which is to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins."

There are a couple other extrabiblical sources that teach the rapture doctrine but that is the earliest example 12-15 centuries prior to Darby.

SCRIPTURAL SUPPORT FOR THE PRETRIBULATION RAPTURE

Revelation 3:10. Here is a promise to the "church at Philadelphia." All seven churches in Revelation have spiritual, prophetic, and metaphorical significance. Here is a direct promise to Christians to be kept from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole world. Cross reference this with scripture that states the tribulation period will be the worst period in human history and that humans will be tested during this time. The original Greek does not imply being guarded or kept safe during this time but being completely removed out of it.

II Thessalonians 2:1-4. Now here is an interesting passage and one I used to use to refute the rapture doctrine until it was better explained to me. Pay special attention to the wording. The people were in a panic so Paul wrote a follow-up letter to the Thessalonians after his first epistle to them in which he previously explained the rapture. They thought they had missed the rapture and that the tribulation had begun so Paul was telling them not to be worried and that whoever had alarmed them was lying.

The day of the Lord (an idiom for the tribulation, end times, and the second coming) would not begin until the apostasy/rebellion and the unveiling of the Antichrist. Paul was comforting the church who thought they had been left behind and were now in the tribulation. He said not to worry. The tribulation has not started, the Antichrist has not arrived, you have not missed the rapture because...

II Thessalonians 2:5-8. It cannot start until we're gone. Cross reference this with other passages that state church-age Christians have the Holy Spirit sealed inside of us as 'a guarantee of our inheritance.' This is a promise tribulation-age Christians do not have. So, when the Holy Spirit goes (as shown by the 'it' neutral gender in the original Greek), we go as well. Church age Christians are believed to be the restrainer indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Daniel 12:11-12 (And many others that give us a specific number of days) compared to Jesus' and Paul's numerous warnings that no man knows the day or the hour. We either know the day or we don't. This alludes to two separate events.

There are many, many more references and examples but those are my favorite. We can also look to the outside world to see what is going on. At least three different other movements (specifically new age movements) predict a future disappearance of Christians. In every single case, they tell of the "Christians nuts" being removed from the planet in an instant in order to allow humanity to progress to the next stage of evolutionary enlightenment. Only the 'true' Christians [read: apostates] who are willing to accept the change will remain behind. It seems Satan even knows the rapture is coming and is planting the seeds of deception to explain where everyone will have gone. Of course I do not consider their predictions inspired but it is interesting.

Well, that is enough for now. Could this view be wrong? Absolutely! We're not going to know what happens until it happens. Both sides of the coin have good, solid arguments. If we go, then we're all going together. If we are meant to stay, then we will. It's not worth fighting about but I at least wanted to get my thoughts out somewhere.

This thread is only the Reader's Digest version but I will probably add more thoughts later on in the form of talking to myself. In the meantime, Here are some more in depth articles defending the pretribulation rapture view:

Article 1. Scroll down past the audio files for the text article. the author does a rather thorough job explaining the rapture and why it is pretribulation.

Article 2. Goes into massive detail with tremendous scriptural references. Very long article that leaves nothing out.

11 Pretribulation Rapture Articles. Here is an index of 11 separate articles that explore the rapture. He also gets in depth with not only point blank pretribulation rapture references but also undeniable allusions and 'between the lines' rapture references.

Not trying to change anyone's mind at all and of course I am open to arguments. Again, this thread is just a place for me to put everything down. I know you're all sick of it by now.

*Edited for spelling and typos*

[edit on 2/23/2008 by AshleyD]

Just linking to a wonderful comment from JD Posey on another thread that brings up the analogy of the Jewish wedding relating to the rapture. It may be found HERE.

Originally posted by AshleyD
Just linking to a wonderful comment from JD Posey on another thread that brings up the analogy of the Jewish wedding relating to the rapture. It may be found HERE.

Great layout on your thread, AshleyD! Thanks for putting the link in your thread about my previous comments on another thread. I truly believe there is a great connection between the Jewish wedding pattern, in regard to what Christ laid out concerning the Parable of the Ten Virgins.

Great thread Ash ! I'm learning some new stuff.

LOL (...or because of a demon told me through a ouija board conversation)

Someone was saying the other day if their's a pretrib and all the dead rise it's going to cause a huge earth quake because of all the graves opening up. Like during the crucification.

Thanks for you hard work on this, I hope you're right and I'll see y'all in the sky!

don't worry about people being sick of it. this is a forum, if i don't want to read a topic, i don't have to click on it. sometimes i read these things just to get a view of what others think.

not really going to make a further comment, but it's interesting to see your view

It's so true, also.
One thing many of the churches I've been to that hold to this doctrine
also believe EVERY Christian (no matter how backslid) will be raptured.
Not true!
Here's an excerpt from one of my favorite preachers.

Rev. Joseph Chambers
Paw Creek Ministries
Charlotte, NC.
"Preachers and leaders that would not hear the truth about the Pre-tribulation Rapture, but hated those of us that preached and taught that truth, will now know how wrong they were. Jesus will only Rapture those saints of God and Bride-ready believers looking for Him. The Word of God is plain, “So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” (Hebrews 9:28) If you are not looking for Him and longing for Him with great passion, do not expect Him to come for you. Apostle Paul wrote to Titus and encouraged him by declaring, “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.” (Titus 2:13-14)

Can you imagine the anger of careless souls that were taken in by the vicious haters of the Biblical Rapture before the great Seven Years of Wrath? The Rapture haters that I deal with on the radio, the internet, and in person are not even kind about this debate. The spirit that motivates them to fight against this hope is extremely loud and dark. In almost every case, they are also anti-Semitic and have an equal desire to trash everything and everyone that is Jewish. A great company of previous lovers of the Pre-tribulation Rapture has been affected by these confused souls. I believe there will be such anger against these deceivers that it will be like war between many of those “left behind.”

Multitudes “Left Behind”
I do not believe that most ministers and Bible teachers have any conception of the millions that are within “Christian” ranks who are going to be “left behind.” The cheap grace that is presently being preached is scary to consider. Sin has been so coddled by this generation that “Raptured Saints” in most minds are nothing but a conglomerate of a mixed multitude. Why don’t we consider what the Lord Jesus and the Holy Ghost-filled writers of the Holy Bible said? Grace never covers sin; grace cleanses sin, and this one statement is the answer. Every soul that has been cleansed from sin, preserved by His sanctification, and kept by the Holy Ghost will be gone in a single moment.

Jesus told beautiful parables about the Bride and the coming of the Bridegroom. He stated, “And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

How can we doubt the clear requirement for a pure Bride dressed in the white garments of holiness? This Bride is made up of the unspotted company of totally dedicated saints that have forsaken all to follow Jesus. He goes even further in a latter parable in Matthew’s Gospel. His words are shattering. “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us.’ But he answered and said, ‘Verily I say unto you, I know you not.’ Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.” (Matthew 25:1-13) There will be no place in this great Rapture for those that are lukewarm and without the oil and fire of the Spirit.

In the letter to Ephesus He said, “Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.” (Revelation 2:5) In the Thyatira letter He warned, “And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.” (Revelation 2:21-22) To the Laodiceans He declared, “I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor not: I would thou wast cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.” (Revelation 3:15-16)

Left Behind
It’s up to you. “Irresistible Grace” is a doctrine of the Calvinist, but it certainly flies to the wind in these seven letters from the Lord to His church. There is no less than forty-four words in these short letters that cry out for you to “be faithful,” have “patience,” “repent,” “hold fast,” “faint not,” and to be an “overcomer.” You cannot have rewards for your faithfulness unless that faithfulness is out of your heart. God is not a robot and He did not create us to be robots. You can be fully committed and He is fully faithful to crown your commitment with grace."

[edit on 23-2-2008 by Clearskies]

Thanks, everyone (JD, BW, MIMS, and CS). Now I will continue talking to myself!

'BETWEEN THE LINES' RAPTURE REFERENCES

1). Jesus said when He returns it will be like the days of Noah and Lot. This can refer to many things (the level of wickedness, the Nephilim, destruction coming suddenly, etc.). It can also be an allusion to the rapture.

We know Enoch was taken into heaven immediately before the flood. Some believe Enoch represents the raptured Christian church prior to the 'flood' (tribulation), Noah represents the 144,000 Jewish missionaries sealed 'within the ark,' and the unsuspecting unrepentant will be 'swept away' in the flood.

Lot was removed from Sodom prior to its destruction and Elijah was taken prior to judgment upon Israel. As I said on another thread, none of these examples display a wholesale removal of God's people before 'a time of wrath' but specific examples of God sparing the righteous from judgement.

2). The Jewish wedding symbolism JD mentioned. In Jewish custom, the groom never knew when he would go for his bride and the bride did not know either. Only the father of the groom knew. Jesus said only His Father knew the day and hour. Jesus, representing the groom, and the church, representing the bride, both are not aware of the date.

3). The foreshadowing of Pentecost and the rapture. SEE: HERE.

4). The promise to be spared from 'the coming wrath.' This could swing either way. Some believe this is a definite promise of a rapture. The tribulation is described numerous times as being a period of 'wrath.' However, this could also refer to the 'wrath' of eternal judgment so it is too ambiguous to really know. Sometimes the phrase is in context with the removal of the saints from the earth and sometimes the phrase is in context to eternal judgment.

5). The difference between the Gentile church age and the Jewish age. The NT clearly shows a separate plan for the Jews and Christians although we are both promised redemption in the end. Right now we are in the 'church age' or what the Bible refers to as 'the age of the Gentiles.'

We are told God will not turn His full attention back to the Jews (although He has never forsaken them regardless of what replacement theologists claim) after 'the full number of the Gentiles comes in.' Many believe this is a hint that the rapture is not time specific but number specific and that rapture date setters are wasting their time. When the precise and preset number of church age Christians 'come in,' we'll be taken and the majority of the Jews will finally accept the Messiah.

The tribulation is also referred to as "the time of Jacob's troubles." This is a direct reference to the Jewish people and not Christians. We'll be gone. In Jesus' Olivet Discourse, His focus is also on warning the Jewish people concerning what to expect during this time. But this is interesting because Jesus also states the Jews will reject Him and the church age Christians will consist mostly of Gentile believers. It is as if He knows since the Christians will be removed prior to the tribulation, He switches His attention off of them and onto Messianic Jews during the tribulation.

[edit on 2/23/2008 by AshleyD]

Originally posted by AshleyD
Thanks, everyone (JD, BW, MIMS, and CS). Now I will continue talking to myself!

We are told God will not turn His full attention back to the Jews (although He has never forsaken them regardless of what replacement theologists claim) after 'the full number of the Gentiles comes in.' Many believe this is a hint that the rapture is not time specific but number specific and that rapture date setters are wasting their time. When the precise and preset number of church age Christians 'come in,' we'll be taken and the majority of the Jews will finally accept the Messiah.

I am enjoying the conversation between you and yourself, Ashley!

I think you bring out a GREAT point in your above statement regarding the Rapture (Catching Away) being tied to numbers, rather than dates. I truly believe this is a fact and so much so, God designed it that way, foreknowing all the men who would come along and attempt to declare dates.

AN ANSWER TO A COMMON ANTI-RAPTURE ARGUMENT

Skeptic argument: God did not save the early Christians from being persecuted by Rome and He does not save the Christians currently being persecuted in the East therefore it would not be 'fair' for Him to save us in the rapture.

Answer: First of all, this is fallacious logic on so many levels. God is not concerned with 'earthly equality.' We are all given our own set of responsibilities, trials, and blessings. This is why we have some Christians who are smart, rich, healthy, and beautiful and some Christians who are poor, persecuted, and suffer loss. There are Christians in all walks of life assigned to different tasks and blessings. If God wanted everything to be 'even' then we would all be the same. This is obviously not true. But we can get Biblical using Jesus' own words:

When Jesus was still alive on Earth, He alludes to the fact Peter would die a martyr while John would not. Peter became slightly indignant and Jesus chastised Peter, basically saying it was none of Peter's business what plan God has for each individual. See: John 21:17-23.

Here's a question for everyone:

We know the Jews prior to Jesus were confused about the Messianic prophecies. On one hand they spoke of a suffering servant and on the other hand they mentioned a glorious king who would reign eternally. They did not understand the prophecies spoke of two events until Jesus explained it. Even John the Baptist was confused until Jesus clarified.

Now, if we really study the New Testament rapture doctrine, it is almost plain as day that the same thing is happening again: On one hand Christians are promised to be saved from the world wide tribulation while they are also promised a rapture at the end. Of course, pretribulation rapture adherents believe the church age believers will be raptured at the beginning while the tribulation saints will be raptured at the end. Could this be more prophetic dualism?

reply to post by AshleyD


Hi Ashley,

Since I am nowhere near as well versed as you, I can't answer the dualism question. But God has always saved his believers from experiencing his wrath. Of course the Noah story is the most common evidence of that, with Noah and his family being the last decent, pure people on earth at the time before the flood. And God told Noah what to do to save himself, and he was removed from the disaster.

I'm not sure what you mean by the dualism question. Can you explain further?

Your friend, IR

reply to post by AshleyD


Dualism as in their are two versions of Jesus the Lion and the Lamb. We've had the Lamb and we await the Lion. A rapture of the saints (of the lamb) followed by a time of great tribulation and testing. Then another rapture of the saint, this time by the Lion. Something like that?

reply to post by Bigwhammy


In prophecy, there is something called "prophetic dualism" and "peak to peak prophecy." Here is an example of each:

PROPHETIC DUALISM: Isaiah 7:14 foretold both Isaiah's future son as well as Jesus. It was one prophecy that predicted both an immediate and distant fulfillment. In order for the prophets to prove themselves, they would often make predictions that would come true in the very near future. After they were verified, then their long term prophecies were accepted as well. They were then considered a true prophet. Often times the same 'near' prophecy had dual meaning for a 'far off' prophecy. The immediate fulfillment verified the future fulfillment was also trustworthy. Ezekiel 37 is another example. It promised the future return to Israel after the Babylonian captivity in the near future as well as the return to the land in the end times that occurred in 1948.

PEAK TO PEAK PROPHECY: Daniel 9:24-27 is a famous example of a peak to peak prophecy. It foretold the coming Messiah as well as the future Antichrist. We know we are in the 'time gap' of the church age between Jesus' first coming and the future rise of the Antichrist. Prophecy scholars describe peak to peak prophecies as a prediction that speaks of the two main events with a time gap in between . Isaiah 52:12-17 is another good example. It shows the future Messiah as both a tortured servant and a triumphant ruler. Christians again believe we are in the time gap between the two advents.

Ahhh...now I understand. While I'm an old (uh middle-aged) woman, I'm still a baby Christian. I still have doubts about which belief about the rapture is correct and can't resolve it in my mind yet. While there are disagreements in Christianity about pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, it's someting I think would not divide us. It's one of those yet to be determined prophecies...ie prophecy we haven't seen accomplished yet.

I do tend to agree with the aforeposter that we are already seeing wrath, closer timing of birth pangs, if you will. But I'm still not sure we won't have to endure the whole tribulation process.

I think the main point is to be ready for anything. Put on the full armor of God and trust the Lord with all your heart to take care of those of us who believe his plan will be accomplished even if we don't understand it yet.

While a persons belief on the timing of the catching away is certainly not a salvation issue, I do believe that it’s very important for those who will live in the last days. If we are in the last days now, as I and many others believe, then the danger exists that those that believe in a pre-trib rapture could be deceived into taking the mark under the mistaken impression that it couldn’t possibly be the mark, since they hadn’t been raptured yet.

Here’s one of the best treatments on the subject that I’ve found.

www.theologue.org...

One things certain, we could all die at any moment, and if that moment comes before Christ returns, that will be our rapture. Be ye therefore ready……

reply to post by resistor


Thanks for the link, Resistor.

I read the article. Although I have several issues with their logic, arguments, scriptural interpretation, and their use of strawman tactics I won't bother refuting it because the point you brought up remains the same: Be ready.

If anyone would like me to refute the article just ask but I'll leave it alone for now because as Resistor said: It simply isn't a salvation issue and whatever is meant to happen is the way it will happen regardless of whether or not we are correct.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
don't worry about people being sick of it. this is a forum, if i don't want to read a topic, i don't have to click on it. sometimes i read these things just to get a view of what others think.

not really going to make a further comment, but it's interesting to see your view

Hee hee,, yeah,, the lord isn't through with you yet Madness. Good to see you here.

- Con

I got to tell you all,, whether you are a Christian or not,, you gotta love this woman. Her passion for the lord and her beliefs are rock solid moreover I would argue that she can stand up to the best of em in this forum when it comes to defending her faith.

No one says it quite like the Bible Thumper extraordinare, AshleyD and I am Honored to call her friend.

As usual she makes a compelling argument regarding a most controversial subject among believers. As I have told her in pvt "U2U messages" she has scared the hell out of me with some of her posts where I have had little grasp on a subject. After reading her usual well thought out carefully composed and authored posts, I now have a better then average grip on the subject and am a better person for having read it.

She is one Christian that is hard to rattle and always stays in character, young in the faith but strong in the lord.




- Con
PS: I know I know,, before anyone from the peanut gallery says it, Ive wiped my nose off already. Nyaa Nyaaa.















[edit on 25-2-2008 by Conspiriology]

I find this stuff really interesting although very confusing. In revelation it can be hard to know if something's to be taken literal or if its a metaphor. Anyway if there was a rapture before the tribulation I guess everyone would probably assume it was a mass alien abduction or something like that. During the tribulation would there be new converts who figured out what was really going on? If any of this stuff really happens I wonder how much longer before it does.

I know I'm coming late to the discussion, but I hope my thoughts are welcome.

My father, who is now deceased believed in the pre-trib rapture and that swayed my beliefs for the longest time. But when I sat down and really studied, the Olivet Discourse for myself a bit of a different picture emerged.

First of all, I don't believe for a minute that Jesus Christ ever minced his words. His disciples may have mixed a couple things up but for the most part it's sound doctrine. I think something is going to happen, probably sooner than later but I'm of the opinion it's something just a tad bit different, than the concept of mass people disappearing.

I think the elect will be gathered but only our spirit/soul will disappear, and that those left behind will have to deal with mass burials. I can't even imagine the grieving that would accompany such an event. One would think that children are definately in the elect. Now consider adults, born with illnesses, both physical and mental and add them in.

Let's just say the age of twelve - is the age of accountability. During the gathering of the elect, all three scriptures support half the population being removed. I crunched the numbers a long time ago and after children and the sick being removed, there is a number problem for all those who call themselves Christians. And I call myself a Christian, so this problem involves me as well.

In both Matthew and Mark what precedes the Olivet Discourse is the "Triumphal Entry." This is not the case in Luke. He gives extra information in between the two events. But Luke was like that. He is the one who recorded all the information on John the Baptist's birth and also gave a thorough geneology of Mary. He went the extra step for us.

Luke does not record in the Olivet Discourse, about Noah, Lot, or two men walking in a field one left - one taken. These things are recordedearlier in a different conversation, that the Lord was having with the Pharisees about the coming of the Kingdom of God. It's Luke 17.

It appears that Matthew and Mark have added two conversations together, whereas Luke correctly recorded them.

The Pharisees ask him when the Kingdom is coming. He tells them it doesn't come by careful observation, you can't say 'here it is or there is it' because it is within you. He then turns to his disciples and tells them, that a day is coming when they will long to see a day like when he was with them - but it won't come. Most of them met terrible deaths - and I'm sure there were many days where they wished Jesus was physically with them.

He warned them to not believe people if they tried to tell them 'Hey Christ is over here!' or 'Christ is over there!' For in HIS day he'll be like lightning which lights up the whole sky. The Old Testament speaks of a unique day, that is yet to happen - that when the sun goes down in the evening, there is still light all around. It's the Day of the Lord.

But first he had to be rejected by the generation he showed himself to and he was rejected. He compares his rejection by his own people, to that of the people in Noah's and Lot's day. They all just went about their lives, like nothing was happening and the next thing you know, they are devestated by destruction.

The day he is revealed will be a unique day. When the sign happens, people will mourn for they will know what is going down. He tells people, that if you are on your roof - don't even bother to go down and get your belongings. If you are out in a field - don't even bother to go back to your house for anything.

He said "Remember Lot's wife. Whoever tries to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left."

The Disciples asked him "Where Lord?"

He answered "Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather."

In light of him stating, that by losing your life you save it, which makes more sense - a mass disappearance or a bunch of dead bodies?