Australia raises possibility of F-22 purchase

Kind of related to our air combat review that is going on at the moment, but worthy of its own thread (well in my opinion anyway) because of the wider implications. Our Defence Minister, Joel Fitzgibbon, has raised the possibility of an FMS purchase of the F-22 by Australia.

Australia raises possibility of F-22 purchase

AUSTRALIA wants the option to buy the F-22 Raptor jet fighter barred from foreign sales by the United States, Defence Minister Joel Fitzgibbon says.

Australia will write to the Congressman whose legislative amendment prevents the advanced stealth aircraft from sale outside the US to gauge whether he would ever relent.

Mr Fitzgibbon said today he had discussed this issue with visiting US Defence Secretary Robert Gates who advised on the best approach.

"The secretary was very helpful in pointing out that it is not just the administration that we need to approach. It is actually the Congress and the congressman,'' he told reporters.

"We have agreed that I should both write to him and to the congressman.''

Mr Gates said the US administration had in principle no objection to foreign sales of F-22.

"The problem that we have with F-22 is that we have a statute of the United states titled the Obey Amendment that precludes the US from selling F-22s to any foreign country,'' he said.

"So while we in principle have no objection to it, until the statute is changed, we are not able sell it to any country.''

I guess the most interesting thing is the fact that the administration has said they have no principle problem with sale, but have pointed out that the Obey amendment would need to be changed, which takes an act of congress. Still, this brings the whole F-22 issue to a head finally. It will be interesting to see what the result it, and the ramifications for our air combat review. My thoughts? Bring it on!

Gates wants to kill the entire F22 prgramme and make the world buy the F35 - so , it won`t happen.

Originally posted by Harlequin
Gates wants to kill the entire F22 prgramme and make the world buy the F35 - so , it won`t happen.

No, that's the Deputy Sec. Def. England (Idiot; Suggested killing the F-35A in a recent QDR) not Gates. He, the USAF, POTUS, and the US Congress all want to keep the line open and the possibility for a larger order available.

reply to post by WestPoint23


i really don`t know to be honest ; gordon england is very vocal about killing the F22 - but like you said also disagree`s with the F35 but

www.latimes.com...

gates isn`t very supportive - 4 more aircraft in the 2009 budget - with phase 1 shut down starting in october , does not seem to be the actions of someone who wants alot more!

This is interesting to say the least Willard. The fact that the current defence secretary was actually advising our defence minister on how to go about garnering favourable review, and who to talk to is very significant. It would appear that there may be a changing wind in Washington. What is even more significant is the fact that it is being advised by the current administration, whose previous Def Sec (and current Deputy Sec Def) were not apparently very open too.

Westy, I would like to here your thoughts on this as you currently see them. Do you feel that a favourable decision towards an Australian purchase is an acceptable risk if it means keeping the F-22 line open? And would this be an advantage if a larger pool of Raptors is available in the Pac Rim?

For that matter, Willard what are your thoughts on this? Would you prefer to see the F-22 being put forward as one of the options, and would a mixed force of F-22 and F-35 make sense (within real world reason of course)?

LEE.

[edit on 24-2-2008 by thebozeian]

If the wind really changes in Washington, it could mean that US administration sees a threath. But they don't want to reaveal their preparations. Thus producing F22s for foreign sale could be a short term smoke screen to ramp USAF A2A capabilities to a new level. But is there a threat in vicinity that would require more than the 180 or so Raptors already ordered?

Originally posted by Willard856Obey amendment would need to be changed, which takes an act of congress.

Don't count on the current democratic-led Congress to make any sensible decisions. Their biggest accomplishments last year were voting themselves a $4000 pay raise, shortening their workweek to 4 days and changing the House cafeteria menu. This year, it's hearings about Roger Clemens' alleged use of steroids. This is the most incompetent Congress in US history.

And if a Democrat is elected president, look for all US military programs to suffer, especially the F-35.

For me, a mixed buy of F-35 and F-22 doesn't make a lot of sense. Plus, cost wise, I doubt very much we could afford enough of each to make a difference, plus you have increased ILS costs across both fleets. I think it has to be one or the other, and given the advances in the Raptor's air to ground capabilities, and the other benefits the platform bring over the F-35 (range, endurance, signature etc), I would choose the F-22 over the F-35. With the reducing seperation of per unit cost, it becomes even more attractive. But the FMS issue is a big one, and it will take some impressive political manoeuvring for it to change, which I'm not confident a Labor government will be able to achieve given their stance on Iraq etc. Still, stranger things have happened.

Oh, and apparently there is a B-2 going cheap. One owner, low milage, some wear and tear, pick-up only...

reply to post by thebozeian


I was initially against foreign sales of the F-22 for two reasons; I felt that the F-35A would be an excellent and highly capable aircraft that would more than handle and future threat in any region of the world while offering multi role capability, cheaper costs and less technology risk. And I still feel this way. However I thought the USAF would be successful in it's attempts to increases the Raptor buy, regardless of whether or not FMS ever happened. I'm not so sure that that's going to be the case now. So yes I would support FMS of "export" Raptors to strong ally countries like Japan and Australia. This would keep the F-22 line open, reduce unit price per airframe and encourage further development/upgrades for the fighter. And it might allow the USAF to purchase the ~380 or so that is says it needs. Yes there are security concerns (Japan/AEGIS) and technology transfer issues (UK/F-35) but if these can be minimized then I'm all for it. In terms of strategic outlook I'd rather have more Raptors available globally with a possibility that the USAF might get more than the end production now with the few that we have, even if they will be more operationally secure.

But more importantly it will keep Australia and Japan from turning to foreign markets and or developing their own internal programs to meet any "gap" they may see. Even though I still feel the F-35 is more than capable to fill any need those two countries may need. Anyway, it would strengthen our alliance with those countries and increase the capability of this mini NATO in the Pacific (Japan, US, Aus) that we have been fostering for some time now to counter and eventually contain China with. More Raptors available in the PACRIM region would free up US commitment in the area and allow us to focus some of our attention and resources elsewhere. Particularly in the European theater given Russia is on a comeback and where there are currently no plans to permanently forward deploy Raptors.

But there is one drawback, it will undoubtedly impact the F-35 program, probably negatively, bad publicity, increased price, less foreign airframes etc… Any "export" F-22 would likely be ready for production and purchase around the F-35 hits full rate production, and if the costs can be minimized it would not make sense for Australia to by a mixed batch, as Willard pointed out. And what if other potential F-35 costumers demand this "export" F-22 if it becomes available? I have mixed feelings about that, I don’t think the DoD would sell the F-22 to anyone but the most trusted allies, and most nations still wont be able to afford it, and the F-35 will more than meet the needs of most countries.

Personally I think if Japan had around ~150 Raptor, Aus ~100 and the USAF ~380, that's more then enough to ensure complete air dominance in the region in the face of any scenario. Even against next generation fighters and SAM's.

I can't imagine Australia purchasing anywhere near 100 Raptors. Currently Australia has around 75 F/A-18 Hornets and around 12 moth-balled F-111's.

I'd guess Australia would go for around 20 Raptors and 70 F-35's.

Originally posted by northwolf
If the wind really changes in Washington, it could mean that US administration sees a threath. But they don't want to reaveal their preparations. Thus producing F22s for foreign sale could be a short term smoke screen to ramp USAF A2A capabilities to a new level. But is there a threat in vicinity that would require more than the 180 or so Raptors already ordered?

It's not a matter of what threat 180 Raptors would go up against, but how many hours those 180 airframes are going to have on them vs. a larger number of airframes, over the life of the program. Additionally, how many places can that # be at any one time, or what are the # of sorties you can sustain?

cant any government research the planes for the f 22 and build it from there

becuase isnt the f 22 a publicly nown plane so it should be easy for England to some how copy the blue prints

You can copy them all you want as far as the design. That's not going to get the VLO, the software, the radar etc. All of that is highly classified. So you'd end up with a plane that may have similar radar, may have completely different radar/avionics, probably not NEARLY as VLO as the Raptor really is.... Why not just design a totally new plane at that point?

@ WestPoint23:

I don't think that the DoD will ever sell the F-22 - to anyone. What has been declassified about the system does not cover all of it's capabilities. I think that we, the public, only know about 60% of it's capabilities. We know that it's stealthy, but we don't know that it's EXTREMELY stealthy etc... So, unless we have some sort of super wiz bang anti-grav hypersonic craft that will defeat the 22 100% of the time, we'll hang on to it.

Once the US opens the floodgates of raptor sales (and not sayings its a bad idea) the unit cost will drop massively and there will be this bizzare situation where the prime customers for the f-35 (largely nations the US is on very close terms with) will be able to buy the real deal for not much more.

Jensy