reply to post by whatukno
When the existence of this first came out the White House only provided a 1 or 2 paragraph summary. Because of the nature of the Annexes this
directive can only be viewed as an abstract with the guts of it in the Annexes.
The President arrogates to himself the Primacy in the continuity of government without any legislation to back such a move nor Constitutional
authority.
[edit on 25/2/08 by Pellevoisin]
NSPD-51 and the Potential for a Coup d'état by National Emergency, page 4
privacy
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:07 AM by TrueAmerican
Originally posted by whatukno
Also if they are indeed classified. Wouldn't it be wise for the senator to deny reading them? From what I understand classified material is not allowed to be talked about.
Then maybe you can explain this:
After receiving concerned communications from constituents, in July 2007 U.S. Representative and Homeland Security Committee member Peter DeFazio made an official request to examine the classified Continuity Annexes described above in a secure "bubbleroom" in the United States Capitol, but his request was denied by the White House, which cited "national security concerns."[7] This was the first time DeFazio has been denied access to documents. He was quoted as saying, "We're talking about the continuity of the government of the United States of America...I would think that would be relevant to any member of Congress, let alone a member of the Homeland Security Committee."[8] After this denial, DeFazio joined with two colleagues (Bennie Thompson, chairman of the committee; and Chris Carney, chairman of the Homeland Security oversight subcommittee) in a renewed effort to gain access to the documents.[9]
If it was no big deal, why would DeFazio, out of serious concern, go get other members involved to try and gain access to these documents? Huh?
The other issue is that no one knows how NSPD-51 reconciles with the National Emergencies Act, a U.S. federal law passed in 1976, which gives Congress OVERSIGHT over presidential emergency powers during such emergencies, because the National Emergencies Act is not mentioned in the text of the National Security and Homeland Security Presidential Directive.
The bottom line is that we don't need Bush's Directive, and we don't need to concentrate this kind of power in the hands of one man. SCREW THAT. Go keep your head buried in the sand, man. He's trying to override laws that already exist, AGAIN, and attempting to bypass congressional oversight. And if you want to hear how concerned I really am about it, go listen to my latest NSR, in my sig. I am not a happy camper.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:15 AM by Pellevoisin
reply to post by TrueAmerican
Without access to the Annexes there is no way to know what the full implications of this are except that the President has by fiat made himself tsar in the matter of the continuity of government -- and he did this without consulting Congress and denying them access to the information about the particulars of this power grab.
Without access to the Annexes there is no way to know what the full implications of this are except that the President has by fiat made himself tsar in the matter of the continuity of government -- and he did this without consulting Congress and denying them access to the information about the particulars of this power grab.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:31 AM by whatukno
reply to post by TrueAmerican
I see your point, and you do have cause to be concerned. However also located in NSPD-51 is this clause
Each part of the federal government has their own plan for times of national emergency. A executive order is just white house policy. Not a hard fast law. The executive branch cannot trump the legislative powers. The directive as I read it also stipulates this. It merely is a plan in place so that our government continues on in the event of a catastrophic emergency.
The classified material section of this is interesting. I do wonder what it stipulates but to jump to the conclusion that it is the edict by the president to coup our constitutionally elected government and declare himself emperor is a wild speculation that is not based on any known fact.
Please don't get me wrong. I think that Bush is a Trator and needs to be brought to justice. I personally am not going to jump the gun and accuse someone of anything without the proof to back it up.
You might be right. I have been known to be wrong about a lot of things in the past. but the Annex A and the classified Continuity Annexes could be classified to protect national security matters. it could also be classified to hide an instance where Jenna Bush gets to fly air force 1. Without the documentation we just don't know.
If the senator does not have the security clearance to view these materials that is indeed a problem and they may end up working out how to view these materials. In that event however being classified we still won't know what is contained in them.
I see your point, and you do have cause to be concerned. However also located in NSPD-51 is this clause
(9) Recognizing that each branch of the Federal Government is responsible for its own continuity programs, an official designated by the Chief of Staff to the President shall ensure that the executive branch's COOP and COG policies in support of ECG efforts are appropriately coordinated with those of the legislative and judicial branches in order to ensure interoperability and allocate national assets efficiently to maintain a functioning Federal Government.
Each part of the federal government has their own plan for times of national emergency. A executive order is just white house policy. Not a hard fast law. The executive branch cannot trump the legislative powers. The directive as I read it also stipulates this. It merely is a plan in place so that our government continues on in the event of a catastrophic emergency.
The classified material section of this is interesting. I do wonder what it stipulates but to jump to the conclusion that it is the edict by the president to coup our constitutionally elected government and declare himself emperor is a wild speculation that is not based on any known fact.
Please don't get me wrong. I think that Bush is a Trator and needs to be brought to justice. I personally am not going to jump the gun and accuse someone of anything without the proof to back it up.
You might be right. I have been known to be wrong about a lot of things in the past. but the Annex A and the classified Continuity Annexes could be classified to protect national security matters. it could also be classified to hide an instance where Jenna Bush gets to fly air force 1. Without the documentation we just don't know.
If the senator does not have the security clearance to view these materials that is indeed a problem and they may end up working out how to view these materials. In that event however being classified we still won't know what is contained in them.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:42 AM by Pellevoisin
reply to post by whatukno
You read that with much too much trust. It says that the President arrogates to himself the right to appoint someone to tell the other branches of government how to coordinate their plans with those that Bush has declared by fiat in NSPD-51 cum annex...
This is not simply White House policy. These orders are implemented as law in the USA not merely the President's wishful thinking. He goes beyond his Constitutional authority in all of this, and it is a tragedy to behold.
It is awful that in my lifetime I have watched US citizens come to accept that their government as the right to keep secrets from them. This idea was odious to US Americans in 1947 when the first secrets act was passed, but now enough time has passed the well-intentioned citizens now accept what would have been unacceptable in former times.
[edit on 25/2/08 by Pellevoisin]
You read that with much too much trust. It says that the President arrogates to himself the right to appoint someone to tell the other branches of government how to coordinate their plans with those that Bush has declared by fiat in NSPD-51 cum annex...
This is not simply White House policy. These orders are implemented as law in the USA not merely the President's wishful thinking. He goes beyond his Constitutional authority in all of this, and it is a tragedy to behold.
It is awful that in my lifetime I have watched US citizens come to accept that their government as the right to keep secrets from them. This idea was odious to US Americans in 1947 when the first secrets act was passed, but now enough time has passed the well-intentioned citizens now accept what would have been unacceptable in former times.
[edit on 25/2/08 by Pellevoisin]
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:43 AM by whatukno
reply to post by Pellevoisin
Exactly how did you come to this conclusion without all the facts? This is an assumption based on an unknown article. I cannot disagree more with a statement made without the whole facts brought to bear on it.
We don't have the clearance to view the entirety of what is contained within this presidential directive. We just don't know what it says. To assume that this is a power play by this (IMO) shaved monkey, is irresponsible and unwarranted. I urge you to read what is contained therein and what we are allowed to see without jumping to the conclusion that one line that states that we don't have the right to see everything immediately means that this president is going to take over the government in a fake national emergency.
Originally posted by Pellevoisin
Without access to the Annexes there is no way to know what the full implications of this are except that the President has by fiat made himself tsar in the matter of the continuity of government
Exactly how did you come to this conclusion without all the facts? This is an assumption based on an unknown article. I cannot disagree more with a statement made without the whole facts brought to bear on it.
We don't have the clearance to view the entirety of what is contained within this presidential directive. We just don't know what it says. To assume that this is a power play by this (IMO) shaved monkey, is irresponsible and unwarranted. I urge you to read what is contained therein and what we are allowed to see without jumping to the conclusion that one line that states that we don't have the right to see everything immediately means that this president is going to take over the government in a fake national emergency.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:46 AM by Pellevoisin
reply to post by whatukno
I came to the conclusion by simply reading the document and watching the President invoke "comity" in order to justify his arrogation of primacy in the continuity of government. In all the frankly less than nuanced text, that much is in plain view.
I came to the conclusion by simply reading the document and watching the President invoke "comity" in order to justify his arrogation of primacy in the continuity of government. In all the frankly less than nuanced text, that much is in plain view.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:50 AM by Pellevoisin
Originally posted by whatukno
reply to post by Pellevoisin
I urge you to read what is contained therein and what we are allowed to see without jumping to the conclusion that one line that states that we don't have the right to see everything immediately means that this president is going to take over the government in a fake national emergency.
Whether or not he makes use of this, he lays the groundwork for the next one of his ilk to have these powers.
A naive reading of what is available to be read does a disservice to all.
[edit on 25/2/08 by Pellevoisin]
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:50 AM by TrueAmerican
reply to post by whatukno
Please do not ignore the CONTEXT of NSPD-51. The article in the OP does a reasonable job of bringing this context into light, citing patterns and other issues that make NSPD-51 PARTICULARLY suspect. If it was just on its own, without any of these other issues, or done as a first time thing from a President who otherwise was NOT seeking secrecy and manipulating evidence to fit NWO agenda, I probably wouldn't even care. But it is the CONTEXT of NSPD-51 that makes it so worthy of serious suspicion.
At this point, anything he does is seriously suspect. And we still have the problem of what the next President will do with these kinds of PD's, IF we manage to make it that far. With everything else going on, it just feels at this point like we won't make it that far. Watch. Major false flag event upcoming, and probably before the end of Bush's term. I can feel it just as sure as I am sitting here. The B2 nuclear weapons incident may have been one attempt already. He wants to be Dictator- let us not forget what he said.
That classified portion I would venture probably terminates US elections as we know it, and that's just a guess. I have no clue what's in there, just like the rest of you. Once in control, he'll keep up the false flag events until the entire population is so terrified they will have no choice but to accept his false veil of security. This is deathly serious, not some children's book.
Please do not ignore the CONTEXT of NSPD-51. The article in the OP does a reasonable job of bringing this context into light, citing patterns and other issues that make NSPD-51 PARTICULARLY suspect. If it was just on its own, without any of these other issues, or done as a first time thing from a President who otherwise was NOT seeking secrecy and manipulating evidence to fit NWO agenda, I probably wouldn't even care. But it is the CONTEXT of NSPD-51 that makes it so worthy of serious suspicion.
At this point, anything he does is seriously suspect. And we still have the problem of what the next President will do with these kinds of PD's, IF we manage to make it that far. With everything else going on, it just feels at this point like we won't make it that far. Watch. Major false flag event upcoming, and probably before the end of Bush's term. I can feel it just as sure as I am sitting here. The B2 nuclear weapons incident may have been one attempt already. He wants to be Dictator- let us not forget what he said.
That classified portion I would venture probably terminates US elections as we know it, and that's just a guess. I have no clue what's in there, just like the rest of you. Once in control, he'll keep up the false flag events until the entire population is so terrified they will have no choice but to accept his false veil of security. This is deathly serious, not some children's book.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 03:55 AM by Recce1
reply to post by filmmaker45
filmmaker45, you forgot to mention several other groups that would oppose an attempt by Bush to declare martial law and suspend the elections. Conservative Republicans like me would call on Americans to dust off the Declaration of Independence and take it to heart with a vengeance remembering the real reason the Second Amendment was written. Also many military officers, including retired ones like myself, who took their oath seriously to defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC would rise up against such an illegal and unconstitutional act.
My suspicion is that many leftists and some libertarians desire to interject such a fear into the body politic so as to foster an atmosphere ripe for revolution. While we no longer live in a democratic Republic under the rule of constitutional law, revolutions have a tendency not to go as planned. They're quite messy and usually result in dictatorships. Consider the French Revolution as an example. By the way, I hope you don’t think the liberal Democrats desire a democratic Republic any more than the neoconservative Republicans. Their goal is a socialist welfare nanny state.
filmmaker45, you forgot to mention several other groups that would oppose an attempt by Bush to declare martial law and suspend the elections. Conservative Republicans like me would call on Americans to dust off the Declaration of Independence and take it to heart with a vengeance remembering the real reason the Second Amendment was written. Also many military officers, including retired ones like myself, who took their oath seriously to defend the Constitution against all enemies both foreign and DOMESTIC would rise up against such an illegal and unconstitutional act.
My suspicion is that many leftists and some libertarians desire to interject such a fear into the body politic so as to foster an atmosphere ripe for revolution. While we no longer live in a democratic Republic under the rule of constitutional law, revolutions have a tendency not to go as planned. They're quite messy and usually result in dictatorships. Consider the French Revolution as an example. By the way, I hope you don’t think the liberal Democrats desire a democratic Republic any more than the neoconservative Republicans. Their goal is a socialist welfare nanny state.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 04:02 AM by whatukno
Congress may overturn an executive order by passing legislation in conflict with it or by refusing to approve funding to enforce it. In the former, the president retains the power to veto such a decision; however, the Congress may override a veto with a two-thirds majority to end an executive order
Source:Wiki
Again I am not saying that this president is a great guy I am just saying that he does not have the constitutional authority. I am sure that congress would override this executive order quickly if the need arose to do so.
but to take one sentence out of an entire executive order and portray it as the doomsday mechanism of the collapse of the united states as we know it is frankly paranoid and altogether alarmist. Especially when we don't know what that annex contains.
This president and all of his ilk will be out of office next January 20 after that a new president will be in office. Hopefully once this monster is out of the white house we as the American people will try him for the various war crimes, and high crimes including treason that can be attributed to him and proven. But I for one am not going to let even a guilty man be accused of something that we don't have the facts and in truth he hasn't done yet!
I would rather focus on what he has done and what he has committed.
reply posted on 25-2-2008 @ 04:14 AM by Pellevoisin
reply to post by whatukno
You are quite right that the President does not have the Constitutional authority. Nonetheless, he has taken it to himself and Congress is in no position to pass contrary legislation when they do not know what is in the Annex to the directive. Bush himself has said that the Constitution is nothing more than " a ***damned piece of paper" as far as he is concerned. And there is no one stopping him and the ongoing expansion of the police state and the unbalanced powers of a now Supreme Presidency.
As far as a new President coming into office is concerned, there will be no difference if Bush's successor is McCain, Obama, or Clinton. They will not revoke anything that has put more power in the hands of the Presidency. Only a third party candidate that believed in the Constitution would do that.
You are quite right that the President does not have the Constitutional authority. Nonetheless, he has taken it to himself and Congress is in no position to pass contrary legislation when they do not know what is in the Annex to the directive. Bush himself has said that the Constitution is nothing more than " a ***damned piece of paper" as far as he is concerned. And there is no one stopping him and the ongoing expansion of the police state and the unbalanced powers of a now Supreme Presidency.
As far as a new President coming into office is concerned, there will be no difference if Bush's successor is McCain, Obama, or Clinton. They will not revoke anything that has put more power in the hands of the Presidency. Only a third party candidate that believed in the Constitution would do that.
reply posted on 27-2-2008 @ 05:43 PM by whatukno
Well as I said write your congressmen about your concerns I did and I got a response from one of them.
Anyone look into what HSPD-20 is?
Of course there was no mention of Annex A or the other classified security annexes
But thats the kind of thing one can do, raise awareness about what is going on. Let your voices be heard people. Write your government and let them know that your worried about things like this.
Below is a response to the recent comments I received from you:
Dear (deleted for security reasons):
Thank you for letting me know of your concerns regarding the President’s announcement of National Security Presidential Directive (NSPD-51) and Homeland Security Presidential Directive (HSPD-20). I appreciate hearing from you.
For over half a century, our government has taken steps to ensure the continuity of our Constitutional form of government in case of national emergencies. Some of these measures were initiated during the nuclear threat of the Cold War and have been refined under the current threat of international terrorism. National and Homeland Security Presidential Directives NSPD-51 and HSPD-20 are part of these efforts.
Like you, I agree that Congress - along with the Executive and the Judiciary - plays an important role in guarding our Constitutional freedoms. National Security Directives NSPD-51 and HSPD-20 emphasize the need to ensure the preservation of our form of government under the Constitution, and it identifies as National Essential Functions of the Federal Government “the functioning of the three separate branches of government,†and “defending the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.â€
Again, thank you for taking the time to contact me. Rest assured that I will keep your thoughts in mind as the Senate continues to consider measures to improve our nation’s security. Do not hesitate to contact me with any additional questions or comments. For more information about issues and activities important to Florida, please sign up for my weekly newsletter at martinez.senate.gov....
Sincerely,
Mel Martinez
United States Senator
**Note: PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO THIS E-MAIL. If you would like to reply to this message, please contact me through my website at martinez.senate.gov....
Anyone look into what HSPD-20 is?
Of course there was no mention of Annex A or the other classified security annexes
But thats the kind of thing one can do, raise awareness about what is going on. Let your voices be heard people. Write your government and let them know that your worried about things like this.
reply posted on 1-3-2008 @ 04:54 PM by TrueAmerican
reply to post by whatukno
Yup, all the more reason to believe that was a standard response letter.
And I agree, what the heck are you talking about enigma? If you are talking about us being watched, that is no secret. There are many military and police on this site, and I'd venture to say probably a few CIA/FBI and Lord only knows who else, too. But until freedom of speech is taken away, why should we worry?
I mean heck, warrantless wire tapping, 900,000 Americans on the terror watchlist, micro UAV's flying around, cameras everywhere, kids being tasered, police with enough firepower to take out small countries... Nah, nothing to worry about at all...
Yup, all the more reason to believe that was a standard response letter.
And I agree, what the heck are you talking about enigma? If you are talking about us being watched, that is no secret. There are many military and police on this site, and I'd venture to say probably a few CIA/FBI and Lord only knows who else, too. But until freedom of speech is taken away, why should we worry?
I mean heck, warrantless wire tapping, 900,000 Americans on the terror watchlist, micro UAV's flying around, cameras everywhere, kids being tasered, police with enough firepower to take out small countries... Nah, nothing to worry about at all...
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