Soldier Jailed for Avoiding Iraq War

reply to post by ThichHeaded


Wow, look at you. Like a a scholar. Funny how I say something, and then you say I'm 'wrong again'. Firstly, where did the 'again' come in?

Second, I did not say anything wrong about loss of free will once you join the military, or consequences one will have to face (just looking at the posted article will prove me right) but you seem to think I'm talking about something else entirely.

So please, get off your high horse and try to see what I'm saying before trying to be superman.

Originally posted by BlueRaja


Like I said, don't join if you can't be counted on to fulfill obligations that you volutarily agreed to. There's no subjectivity involved in enlistment into the military.

Well that's just stupid, they should change the contract rules. Because it's wrong, we are all individuals, we can all make our own decisions, and if we risk OUR lives for them, we have the RIGHT to make our own decisions if we stay or go.


[edit on 22-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by ThichHeaded


Is there universal consensus that the war is illegal or unconstitutional? You can't have 1.4 million Chiefs all deciding when they'll obey orders.'
It's your opinion that the war is illegal/unconstitutional, but that's not gonna help you in court.

He should NOT have joined. And according to HIM...he believed the war WAS justified.
www.stripes.com...

“I’m not a pacifist or peacenik or against the war in Iraq. From the beginning, I believe the war was justified, (but) I could not live with myself if I killed another person,” he said.

Oh and he had the opportunity to GET OUT....but he CHOOSE to re-enliste:

The prosecutor, Capt. Derrick Grace, said Stewart should be made an example of for the Vilseck community. He noted that Stewart had a chance to leave the Army after his first deployment but chose to re-enlist for four more years while he was in Iraq.

“He was fine serving in a garrison environment, but when his nation called him to deploy, he said ‘no,’” Grace said.

He just didnt want to deploy again and have to kill someone and was unable as a man to hold to his contract....and/or get out the right way. A contract that he CHOOSE to enter into - knowing FULL WELL what that ment.


Oh and with all of that said. My heart does go out to him. His job is NOT easy. As I type this, I am listening to a stryker team practice on the gun range near my house - causing my windows to shake and the floor to shake like an earthquake.....because they will deploy AGAIN soon.

However, they all have a choice to not enter and to get out when their contract is up.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by greeneyedleo]

reply to post by _Phoenix_


The military is NOT about the individual. It is about a TEAM. When you volunteer, you realize that you're giving up certain rights, and that obedience is expected. A military absolutely cannot function without order and discipline. You understand you're part of something that's bigger than YOU- The Mission. Mission accomplishment takes precedence over any individual. If this weren't the case, no mission would ever get accomplished.

This Conscientious Objector Status seems to be not an easy task...

ACLU files suit

Calvin Lee, a permanent resident from Southeast Asia currently assigned to the 58th Combat Engineer Company based at Ft. Irwin, joined the Army in 2004 after a zealous recruiter approached him at a civilian job fair in South San Francisco. Though he had learned English from brief stays in America and in school in Southeast Asia, he was unfamiliar with the tactics of military recruiters. When the recruiter told him his job would be repairing trucks and that he would never have to leave Fort Irwin or go to war, against his deeply held Buddhist-Taoist beliefs, Lee believed him and signed the three year contract.

Once training began, Lee realized he was being trained to kill along with his training as a mechanic....

By Nov. 2006, his personal turmoil was so great he applied to a temple in Southeast Asia to live as a monk at the end of his Army service in Sept. 2007. But to his dismay, in Dec. 2006 he was told that his term of service in the Army was being extended as part of the "stop loss" policy and his unit would be deployed to Iraq in the summer of 2007. Lee applied for conscientious objector status.

Though the officers, the chaplain and a mental health specialist who interviewed Lee as part of the Army's evaluation process all recommended that he be released as a conscientious objector, the Department of the Army rejected his application without explanation.

ACLU suit

These are very murky waters.....

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

Don't join the military then, if you are unable to abide by a contract that you voluntarily agreed to.

That's right for your sake and the sake of your country don"t join the military.

If every American soldier in Iraq refused to fight, the citizens of Iraq would be forced to fight for themselves.

Tyrants like Bush, Saddam, Kim Jong, and Amadenajhad use the military to intimidate and strike fear. I know it was impossible for the Iraqis to oppose Saddam because he would gas them and bomb them. But hey Sadam didn't drop the bombs himself. He instructed programmed drones that have been brainwashed to believe that basic human rights of man come second to their allegiance to a sterile, evil state.

I believe in allegiance to a just nation, derived from just laws, but I'm not too brainwashed to not know when the human rights of that nation have been destroyed by corrupt leaders.





[edit on 22-2-2008 by ColdWater]

reply to post by DancedWithWolves


It is an easy task for many. You just have to go about doing it the right way. I know of a few people who have done this....my ex-fiances did this...he was special forces....and got out in 2002 due to CO.

However, this soldier didnt go about it the right way.

He violated his CONTRACT that he CHOOSE to enter into.

End of case.

[edit on 22-2-2008 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

The military is NOT about the individual. It is about a TEAM. When you volunteer, you realize that you're giving up certain rights, and that obedience is expected. A military absolutely cannot function without order and discipline. You understand you're part of something that's bigger than YOU- The Mission. Mission accomplishment takes precedence over any individual. If this weren't the case, no mission would ever get accomplished.

Yes and what makes a team great is the individuals.

If everyone knows and has the passion that they are doing is right, then they will make a great team.

Order and discipline to follow orders is great.

But once you want to leave, you are not part of the team anymore, why should you be forced to follow orders.

So does this make soldiers slaves? do soldiers sign a contract to be SLAVES to dodgy goverment people.

If these rules change to you being allowed to leave at any time, you wouldn't be slaves anymore, you would be a respectable soldier with free will.

I would rather not sign a contract to be a slave. No thanks.

What if the german soliders thought like me at the time of Hitler, when they realise what they are doing is wrong, would they also be arrested or even killed for wanting to leave? were they slaves too? Just maybe if the majority of them STOPPED maybe they could have been heroes.

Like I said in the end I would do what is right, and no writing on paper is above that.





[edit on 22-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

reply to post by _Phoenix_


If a soldier could decide to leave whenever they wanted to, the military would not be able to function. It's not about being slaves. It's about accountability, integrity, duty, responsibility, etc... It's about meaning what you say- I_______will do________for the duration of my contract, and you have my word on that. If you're word is no good, then I have no use for that person.

GEL nailed it, he shouldn't have joined if he felt that he couldn't live with himself if he killed someone. Huh? THAT'S WHAT THE MILITARY ARE CALLED ON TO DO IN WARTIME!!!

Oh, "But this is an illegal war." OK, send him to a legal one, Afghanistan.

I'm not sure about "consciencious objecter" but wouldn't that only apply to someone that had been drafted?

Its horrific for both soldiers and the people that are dying everyday to have to experience whats going on over there...Its anything but a human environment- people are killing each other left and right by any means necessary and its sad that women and children are brought into the mix. Its physically, emotionally, and psychologically draining for everyone. I would do the same thing if I was this soldier- I would not fight for someone like bush ever. Let alone die. At this point- they're not fighting for their country. Their country is fighting them. Anyone who risks their lives for the good of the people is a hell of a human being. Lets just hope things die down...and the sooner bush is out- the sooner maybe we can see an exit for our troops. That being said- the future is unpredictable so anything could happen...

[edit on 2/22/2008 by PimpyMcgibbins]

The way this so call war has turned into, from liberation to offensive, reconstruction to war again I say let the entire military body raised up and fight the government back on the legality of the status they have in Iraq.

I say go for it soldiers fight back.

Originally posted by BlueRaja
reply to post by _Phoenix_

 

If a soldier could decide to leave whenever they wanted to, the military would not be able to function. It's not about being slaves. It's about accountability, integrity, duty, responsibility, etc... It's about meaning what you say- I_______will do________for the duration of my contract, and you have my word on that. If you're word is no good, then I have no use for that person.

Yes but most people are ready to give their word, to follow orders, that's why they became soldiers in the first place. They give this word to something they believe is right, for what they will fight for, I mean they are willing to risk their LIVES, of course they will be reliable. If that changes, if they feel what they are fighting for isn't the same as what they gave their word for. Then doesn't that promise get broken.

Giving your word and being a slave are two different things. You give your word to somebody you respect.

That person you respect won't put you in prison.


[edit on 22-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

In regards to the ACLU case - completely different ballgame there.

The guy we are talking about on this thread was in for at least 4 years already. He KNEW the proper way to get out (not re-enlist) and he KNEW what would happen if he rejected orders to deploy.

Him getting arrested was not a surprise to him. He was full aware of what would be happening to him.


And another thing....he could have retrained into an entirely different career field w/in the Army or some other branch. Many career fields NEVER deploy because their job is required at "home".

[edit on 22-2-2008 by greeneyedleo]

Originally posted by marg6043
The way this so call war has turned into, from liberation to offensive, reconstruction to war again I say let the entire military body raised up and fight the government back on the legality of the status they have in Iraq.

I say go for it soldiers fight back.

But the entire military doesnt want to do that. And what would be the point of the military then? You cant have a military if everyone is rising up in anarchy. It doesnt work that way.

The way to deal w/ it is..........................................................
Dont enlist.....and Dont re-enlist. SIMPLE!

But, believe it or not many if not the majority LOVE being a part of the military....and MANY (I can name a dozen or so at least) LOVE being deployed for various reasons. 1. Because they make lots of money being deployed (tax free, extra money for local, etc) 2. Many believe in what they are doing.

Obviously I cant speak for everyone, but I can speak for those I know and live amongst.

Six months a pretty light sentence for missing movement, which is one of the most serious infractions in the military, plus he only lost one rank.

There's nothing sad here.

He might a well have won the lottery.

reply to post by greeneyedleo


The job of the military is to protect our nation from foreign invasions. if one day this comes to happen even I will fight to the death for this nation volunteers will be in abundance

What the military is right now is nothing more than a feeding machine for the private military complex to suck the blood of our soliders and money out of the people of this nation.

reply to post by marg6043


Well, luckily you dont have to serve. And if the military members feel the same way you do, then they dont have to serve either.

Military has been nothing but a positive experience for my family and most I know. That is with deployments too. I understand it isnt for everyone, but again.....everyone doesnt have to be part of it.

Originally posted by marg6043
The job of the military is to protect our nation from foreign invasions.

if one day this comes to happen even I will fight to the death for this nation volunteers will be in abundance

We have been invaded.

I've been hearing this mantra for all of my adult life.

Let's face it. Those who would wait until last battle to fight the war will have nothing to offer, because by then it will be too late and too much will have been lost.

It is not honorable to encourage citizens to break the law and then promse that those same individuals will be willing to fight when the enemy is marching up the Mississippi.

That's just as much a lie as it was when it was first uttered by the first coward to have uttered it.