Gentlemen, gentlemen,...

Please stay on topic.

The issue aforefront is whether anything has happened to verify RW's claims to a massive attack against the U.S.

so far -- nada, zilch, nothing

Keep tithing him though. (suckers)

Maybe it will be Venezuela that launches this massive attack?
nea, Hugo likes us buying his oil.

That last comment was not meant to offend even though it probably did. I shouldn't have said the part about reading your bibles but the fact of the matter is, man's blindness has corrupted his thinking of the interpretation of the Bible. Just because the word "easter" is mentioned in the bible, doesn't mean we should celebrate it. Here's a new topic starter too. Easter is traditionally celebrated as a christian holiday in honor of the passion of Christ when he died on the cross and rose on the third day. What people fail to realize is that "easter" was originally a pagan holiday that celebrated the god and goddess of fertility. Hence the "easter bunny" which is the symbol of firtility due to the mass reproduction of rabbits. The colorful easter egg is symbolism for the fertility of the gods as it symolizes the dawn of a new life. What chrisitans need to realize is that the passion of Christ is suppose to be celebrated on the annual passover. That was the whole point of the last supper. Drink the wine for it is the blood of Christ. Eat the bread for it is the flesh of Christ. He died for our sins. We literally drank his blood and ate his flesh as he died on the cross for our sins. He was the sacrificial lamb of the passover which stopped the need for slaughtering a lamb sacrifice but didn't stop the celebration of the passover. It was Christ who said to keep the passover holy. It was Constantine, the Roman Emperor who decided to make the chrisitan passover on a sunday and adopting the pagan holiday "easter" which actually translates to the word "passover" in the greek text. What Constantine wanted to do was create division between Jews and Christians. Along with the Roman Catholic Church, Constantine made that possible. Roman Catholics are the ones who changed the sabbath to a sunday which was the day the pagans worshipped the sun god. Nothing in the Catholic religion is kept holy through the teachings of Christ or his apostles. As for Ron Weinland, it's a wait and see thing for me. One church organization I find to be followers of the true teachings of Christ is the "United Church of God" which is completely different from the "Church of God PKG." UCG believes the standard belief that we are living in the end times. They tie current events with bible prophecy that has already been written. The have many booklets and newsletters free of charge that are very educational when it comes to true teachings of the bible and prophecy. Skeptics are welcome to check them out but the fact of the matter is this.... they don't ask for your money and they don't claim to be prophets. They simply provide insight to difficult passages and books in the bible and concentrate mainly on prophecy. They can even pinpoint where the U.S. and Britain fit in with bible prophecy. Even clear up the misconception of a pre-trib rapture like what Tim Lahaye teaches. Just go to www.gnm.com and get a free subscription to the "good news magazine" and request free booklets. Just remember that a true christian spreads the word, and enlightens the troubled-spirited in the world.

Just got my copy of the book, again I say the basic message is close, BUT, I must take a deep breath and step back about him being one of the two witnesses of Rev 11.

Originally posted by heliosprime
Just got my copy of the book, again I say the basic message is close, ...

No, the guy is not 'close'. Jonah (in the Bible) didn't offer up a 10-thousand word essay about how HE is a prophet. Jonah said what he said and what he said was short, succinct and to the point:

"Yet forty days, and Ninevah shall be overthrown"

For Ron W. to BURY (on page 76? or was it 101?) the first claim he is one of the "two witnesses" is an insult to his readers.

I find his (RW's) books quite boring.

The law (the 10 commandments) for a Christian is to be WRITTEN ON THE HEART, so yes, it's an inward thing, and not an "outward appearance", BUT it is manifested outward in our behavior. So it is not one or the other (we keep law and are legalists, or we don't keep law because we keep it in our hearts because we are under grace), it is BOTH.

So two people who outwardly may be keeping the commandments, one of them may be a pharisee (where the law is not "written in the inward parts"), while the other one may be outwardly keeping the commandments AND have the law written in his heart, this second one would qualify as a true Christian.

To get back on track of this thread...

Mr RW has made a number of claims. (since start of original thread that was locked)

1) he is one of the Two Witnesses
2) the 1335 days started Feb 2, 2008
3) the 144,000 thousand have been sealed.

Let's back track a second, one of RW's main problems is that he "spiritualizes" everything away, by that I mean that he transfers prophecies that will happen "physically" (that is, the prophecies manifest visibly is some form...like the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies) to some spiritual application.

This is his great mistake.


O.K., now to address point #3

3) the 144,000 thousand have been sealed


Does the bible support his statement? (let's forego, his statement in the sermon that he's received this truth via prophetic revelation).

What does the bible say? Who do you wish to believe? What the bible says, which is inspired by God (yes "written" by men)? Or the claims of some man?

The decision should be easy, because the answer to whether this has happened or not, is truly, truly easy.

Here is what the Book of Revelation says, in regards to the time this occurs.


Rev 6:12 And when He had opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake. And the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.

Rev 6:17 for the great day of His wrath has come, and who will be able to stand?

Rev 7:1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth so that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Rev 7:2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

Rev 7:3 saying, Do not hurt the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads



3 Important things to note...

A) A WORLD WIDE visible sign will be seen by ALL, which occurs at the opening of the 6th seal.
The sun will become black, and the moon will turn to the color of blood.
No one anywhere, who has sight, will miss this.

This sign (sun turning black, mooning turning to blood) IS NOT SOME "SPIRITUAL" thing that has happened. In other words, this is a sign that will manifest visibly, physically, in the real world where EVERBODY WILL SEE IT.




B) AFTER this happens (which of course means that BEFORE the sealing of the 144,000, this must occur)
What follows? What follows AFTER THIS SIGN IS FULLFILLED?
This sign occurs FIRST....THEN something after it will occur, what is it? What will occur AFTER this sign??

It should also be noted (another point for pinning down the timing), in Rev 6:17 we note that it is "The Great Day of His Wrath".
This is commonly understood (with those with a Church of God background) to refer to the "Day of the Lord", in other words, "the Lord's Day" (that is the prophetic Lord's Day, not the Sabbath which is also the Lord's Day).

The Lord's Day is the LAST YEAR of the 3 1/2 years, of the tribulation period.



C) THEN after this happens (sun + moon sign), THEN the 144,000 ARE SEALED.
From Rev 6:17, we now realize the time, the time is somewhere at the start of the last year, that is the time the sealing occurs.





This even has not occurred, Mr RW is in error when he states that this event has happened.
We must do what the Bereans did, CHECK THE SCRIPTURES TO SEE IF IS TRUE!!!!!
(which they were commended in doing).


Now point #2
2) the 1335 days started Feb 2, 2008

There are 3 major "sign post" dates, for Christians to look for...
A) 1335 days
B) 1290 days
C) 1260 days


A) At 1335 days true Christians will gather at Jerusalem! Why? How can I know? How can YOU know? Does the bible support this??
We know BECAUSE OF THE NEXT "sign post"!

B) at this sign post, 45 days AFTER the start of the 1335 days, at the 1290 day mark (according to RW the 1335 days began Feb 2, so that the 1290 mark OCCURED THIS PAST WEEK, it DIDN'T but let's proceed), we have the next major VISIBLE sign to occur (that is visible in some physical way, we are not to "spiritualize" away the sign).

This next sign involves 2 things. (Both book of Daniel + Matthew 24 discuss this).
(B1) Jerusalem is surround by the armies of the Beast Power.
(B2) Daily sacrifice (which does not require a rebuild Temple) is forcibly stopped.

At this sign THE CHURCH IS COMMANDED TO FLEE TO THE MOUNTAINS..toward Petra.

This HAS NOT OCCURRED!!! This sign (according to RW's timing) should have been fulfilled this PAST WEEK.
I'm sure RW has "spiritualized" away the meaning of this event, which is sad, because when it really happens, neither he nor his followers will recognize these PHYSICAL SIGNS.




now to point #1
1) he is one of the Two Witnesses
I believe that RW believes that his wife is the second witness, this has not been confirmed yet, but this is what has been indicated via the "grape vine".
God never has worked with a husband and wife pair (that I can recall), He has always chosen men to be his prophets when there is a major work (yes the NT does mention one or two women, who were prophetesses). The Two Witnesses will be two men who are alive TODAY, not a resurrected Elijah / Moses pair. As a rule, God has never resurrected a prophet FROM A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AGE, to prophecy to a nation of another age. That prophet would have no understanding of the age he was prophesying to, so would be an ineffectual servant.

My conclusion, based upon examining the scriptures (like Bereans did) is it does not agree with Bible.



[edit on 22-3-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

p.s. It should be mentioned, if it hasn't already, one very key doctrine that RW teaches, that is so glaringly wrong, it astounds me.

One of his key doctrines, is that Jesus Christ, did not exist before He was born of human flesh. That Jesus Christ did not exist eternally, before He came into the world with God The Father.

This is based on a SINGLE scripture in the OT, and is taken out of context, not to mention it requires throwing out 99% of the rest of the Bible which teaches clearly otherwise.

Roughly paraphrasing it, the scripture says, "The Lord God is One".
RW should know, from his WCG background that God's name is a uni-plural name, describing His nature.

For example, if you follow baseball, you could say the Yankees are the one to beat for the world series. Yankees - is uni-plural, it means ONE TEAM, but more than ONE PERSON is in it.

In reality I don't think the verse should be interpreted even in this way, I believe the verse is saying, (paraphrasing sort of)
"The Lord God is THE One...to worship"

It's very important that RW proponents realize one thing....
The biblical test for a prophet has NOTHING to do with whether the prophesy he speaks comes true or not. This has never been a sign of a true prophet as far as the bible is concerned.

The claim for the title of prophet is not based on...
1) how nice he is in person
2) what a great speaker he is
3) how rich he is, or how poor he is
4) how good looking he is, or not good looking he is
5) how proud he is or how humble he is
6) and MOST IMPORTANTLY if his prophesy comes TRUE.

It goes without say, that if the prophesy does NOT come true, then he is a false prophet.

Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 when a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken: the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously, thou shalt not be afraid of him.



The biblical test for a true prophet has to do with whether he is preaching false doctrines! Not whether the prophesy comes true or not.
Primarily the doctrines that will lead them away from the true worship of the true God.

Deu 13:1 If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
Deu 13:3 thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

RW has plainly stated that Jesus Christ did not exist prior to His human birth, so even here, RW, is leading his members away from both God the Father and The Word, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who is also God.

[edit on 24-3-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

[edit on 24-3-2008 by SirPaulMuaddib]

Originally posted by SirPaulMuaddib
The biblical test for a true prophet has to do with whether he is preaching false doctrines! Not whether the prophesy comes true or not.
Primarily the doctrines that will lead them away from the true worship of the true God.

I am glad that someone, such as yourself, sees what I have been trying to convey in regard to Ronald Weinland and the fact, where you see men rising up and making bold claims, like that of Mr. Weinland, one needs to look closely at their doctrine.

What is alarming, he has corrupted the foundation of the faith, so, the faith he is leading his followers into, at the very base, it is corrupted and that is a grave, grave, error which he has lead everyone into with respect to their salvation.

Some excellent truth SirPaul/JD..you went down the path in an earleir thread I just hinted at...mainly the massive amount of typing involved. Still RW and others like him do support the fact we are in the end times since false prophets are rising up today.

Originally posted by BlackProjects
Still RW and others like him do support the fact we are in the end times since false prophets are rising up today.

Yes, unfortunately, RW is doing his part to fulfill scripture, but not in a way he expects. He is fulfilling the sign of the arrival of false prophets.

G'day from the land of Oz.

I have just posted elsewhere in these forums, about a dream I had, but I'll repeat it here, because I believe it has bearing on the arguments going on here.

I believe that Repentence, not physical, but intellectually and spiritually is the answer to everything mentioned in this forum so far.

Ronald Weiland mentions a Saturday Sabbath (which I agree with), but also talks about repentance.

Some years ago I was greatly troubled by constant thoughts of things I had done wrong in my life. I am not a churchgoer, but believe in God, and prayed for an answer.

One night I dreamt I was before God and a group of men, and was given two words and their correct spelling. I could not sleep until I had got up and entered the words on my computer. I went back to bed and slept soundly.

Some days later I googled the two words and to my surprise I got a single hit, a page summing up the works of two jewish philosophers about the meaning of repentance. A lengthy, difficult, but informative read.

Nowadays the two words hit on many sites, but Googling results, at the moment, in the second hit as the page by Kok-Solov.

The words? Meulah factor

I believe your arguments to date are immaterial. The path to God lies in true repentance, and following Gods word, and repenting, with mind and soul, those things that being of the flesh mires us down with. Certainly Saturday worship strikes a chord in me, and I believe that if enough people were to truly repent, then the end time would be averted. Unfortunately I also believe there's little chance of that occurring. Everyone who I tell the dream to treats me as though I'm a few planks short of a ship.

However, if you've got the time, and the intellect to understand the heavy going, google the words, and read the result.

I hope they strike a chord in you too!

Warmest regards

OzSanta

I had a dream a couple of weeks ago. I havent watched any movies or shows or talked about anything that would have made this dream occur and it was very real a very vivd dream of watching a bombing in the U.S.
I was in a building like a sky scraper or a big hotel and I was looking out the window to a sky scraper, I saw nuclear missles coming out of the sky and aimed at the sky scraper I was looking at, then I realized holy crap theres more and I hid in the bath tub with a mattress over myself trying to protect myself from getting killed in the explosion. Everything after that is fuzzzy but I remember trying to tell every one what was REALLY happening. That the seveneth seal has been broken. And every one thought I was crazy. I have told myself in reality that if these profecies come true I will repent and I will follow the path of god. I want to live into the kingdom of god. As of now, I dont know if I believe theres a god, but people need proof right? I always have, and this would be the proof I need to repent.