Students don't grasp U.S. History

The full story from the Washington Times:
www.washingtontimes.com...

So WHO is to blame, the students for failing to learn, or the teachers or system for failing to teach the material?

What do you think?

Students don't grasp US History? I'd like to suggest that a very precious few --- and clearly no one in government --- has a grasp on US History. If they did we wouldn't be down the road we are now.

Good point. I agree with you. If we're going to change that, though, we need to get this generation turned around. How would you propose that we do that? Do we start with the MSM, TV, movies, etc? It seems that those are the outlets that students "shop".
I am interested in changing it. I certainly talk politics and history with my children, and will with my grandchildren, when they're old enough to understand.

i think studying american history only, is a tad insufficient for any
person wishing for a better planet.

My wife is a high school reading teacher in FL. It is sad that we have to teach HS kids to read. Many of the poor kids cannot read and therefor cannot study/learn properly. Grades K - 8 must have been wasted for them. All they think they understand is the sound bites on TV and biased movies and programs.

The students in all grades need to get back to the basic Reading, Writing and Arithmatic. Also History/Social Studies.

Instead the students are forced to study just to pass tests like the FCAT other such tests from grade school on up.

The schools need teach them to read first and how to find the answers to their questions !! Then they can start packing the touchy-feely stuff into them later...

Pumba2314

I agree. I saw the problem at the college I taught at. The students were coming in, with poor skills in all areas. Instead of being able to teach new material, the first 4 or 5 weeks were spent just getting the basics down. You are right- they don't know how to research or think on their own. I had several of them tell me that when their teachers reviewed for a test, they gave them the questions and the answers! No research needed, no thinking, just memorize the information for a day or two, spit it out, and forget it as soon as it's over.

A tool I would use to encourage research, was the give them a general question that was going to be on the test. It would force them to do some research, and UNDERSTAND the issue. They also knew that there would be multiple versions of each question, and the questions required relatively long answers, which involved explaining WHY they gave the answer they did. I also spent a good deal of time in class discussions, to encourage the thought process. For many topics, I would break them into groups of 3 or 4, to encourage teamwork. I found that worked very well. It is certainly more work on the teachers' part, and several of my colleagues told me they wouldn't do it, because it was too much work. My answer to them, was that if they felt that way, they shouldn't be teaching. Many of them gave scantron tests, and had machines grade them. God, how can you get to know your students that way?!
I detest government programs that base everything on standardized tests. All it does is encourage some teachers (not all) to "teach to the test".

I can understand people that never went to college, to not know history, but these are college students. Very strange.

Our primary "Educational" system has fundamental flaws that are causing the lack of success in the higher schools. There are countless programs such as "New Math" and "Whole Language" that are implemented with the intent of providing some new method to teach our children to learn. What actually happens is that the teachers don't understand how to use the program, or the program is fundamentally flawed to begin with, and the student is the one who suffers. I remember these experimental programs were a failure when I was in grade school, and I had to yank my kids out of public school because the "Educators" were still at it.
The experimental programs, the overt political agenda, the lack of order and discipline in the classrooms, and the over catering to the slowest students at the expense of the rest of the class, are but a few of the glaring deficiencies that cause the lack of knowledge in kids entering college.
It's so bad that one could successfully make the argument that there is a concerted effort to dumb down everyone coming through the public education system.

reply to post by Shedman

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Thank goodness I learned to read in grade school and how to use the Dewey decimal system (GRIN). That way if I did not know the answer to something or I wanted to know about a subject all I had to do was go look it up. Now with the Internet one must be able to read to do the research.

I learned with the early Phonics systems. I can read very well. Sometimes my spelling stinks. Thank heavens for spell checkers...

i'll address this from the perspective of one of those who probably would have failed that test. i was always horrible at history. school in general was tough for me unless i had a specific interest in a subject and had some motivation to explore it, or already had some understanding of the material. i think he problem was partially due to what others have mentioned - we weren't really taught how to interpret and fully understand the material. just remember some main points that we could regurgitate on the test and never have to remember past that. the work mostly consisted of some questions at the end of each chapter in the text that you could basically just go back, scan a few pages for a keyword and write down the answer. no thought involved - just the ability to find the page that had the answer. i did pay attention in class (most of the time) and that's probably the only reason i didn't fail.

my memory pretty much sucks. i need to be involved with something to learn about it. i can't just read a book on history and absorb it. for example, i always did ok in math, because it was something i could work with. even languages are one of my strong points (even though i let my grammar/punctuation slide sometimes =) .) i see history as a course on raw memorization and i just don't do well in that area. i can imagine i'm not the only one.

slight tangent:
i would be less concerned with the idea that kids are failing history and more concerned that they don't fully understand how to manage money. i'm not just talking about plain arithmetic, i'm talking about things like loan types and how they work or different ways to invest. our country is in a hole and it has at least SOMETHING to do with the fact that people don't understand money. i think that's a bigger problem than not remembering "who" did "what" "when".

Oh, I don't think you even have to make that argument. I think the facts speak to exactly that. One of the encouraging things that I experienced, though, was how eager students were to learn, once they were given the tools, and a chance to really learn, not memorize. I used to take current items from the news(not just politics, but items like new technologies, business items, etc), items that at first glance, they would not think had any impact on their lives. I would then make the connections to their lives, and show them how such things really DID affect them. After awhile, they caught on, and then it became fun. They actually looked forward to discussing current events, especially when they knew they affected them. The next step was getting them to take action to CHANGE those things that they didn't like. I never told them what to believe. I think that professors that do that, again, are doing a disservice to the students. Students need to think on their own. I did tell them how to contact their congressional representatives, how to lodge a consumer complaint,and how to register to vote. I never consciously told them how I felt about politics, although I'm sure that some of them could deduce that, but that's ok, because again, that means that they are learning to think on their own.
Again, student reaction was very positive. Many of my "colleagues" however, had a different view, namely that since the students were telling them how much "FUN" my classes were, I was just playing games. I would respond by telling them that people(including students!) learn more when they are enjoying it. No one said that learning should be drudgery. By the way, I don't think that my techniques were great, they were just common sense, something unfortunately that many educators have in short supply.

I guess that it is rather obvious how I feel about who bears the greatest responsibility for the dismal shape of education in our country today. There are certainly a lot of great teachers and professors out there, but there are also many that fall far short of what is needed to turn this thing around.

i can tell i would have really enjoyed being in your class. this is no longer a one-liner. =)

reply to post by Pumbaa2314

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Yes, and one if the things students need to be told, is how to evaluate and validate what they get from the internet. In a way, things were easier when our research consisted of going to the library and reading a book or piece of reference material. Most of the material had already been validated, but of course today,anyone can put anything on the internet. With sites like Wikipedia, they certainly must be able to validate what they have read.

High school students tell me that they don't want to understand history because in their perspective past is past. I tried to help them understand that history can be still be applied to our current history. You have to try to make them know the importance of history like in lesson plans and to discuss in higher level thinking with the classroom. Otherwise remembering George Washington as the first president of the U.S. has no relevance in their life unless they were on Who wants to be a millionaire that may ask that question.

Very true. One must take the time to consider the source of the information and to cross reference it with another source. As you stated the reference libraries are/were validated.

My wife and I also agree that the presentation of the subject matter needs to be fun/interesting. The students are now used to being entertained. TV, Radio, even at church. My wife did a lession on Romeo and Juliet that had the "thugs" eager to participate.

an example from history that can be applied today.

when the reichstag was burned in 36, (even though he had it done) hitler blamed a dutch, jewish anarchist, the terrorists of the day. he went before the german congress and people and said 'give me all this power and i will keep you safe."

2001, 9-11 happens and pres bush basically says the same thing.

things like this is why history should be taught.

p.s. my favorite president is william henry harrison. president for 30 days, he could not screw any thing up! LOL!

reply to post by an0maly33

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You are exactly the kind of student that would have done very well with better teachers. You said your memory isn't that great.(I paraphrased your wording)
Memories should be for family, spouse, children, nice times, not memorizing dates. Why should students have to memorize dates, when they can look them up. Why should people have to memorize facts and figures, when we have world almanacs? What they should know how to do, is WHERE to find the answers.




Another great point. You're now getting into what I really wanted this thread to become, a discussion on education in general, and where it has gone wrong.
It is amazing how many students had NO life skills. They couldn't even balance a check book. No one ever showed them!

Let me let you in on a dirty little secret. It's the Curriculum Committee. People wonder why schools teach what they do. The answer is that a group of professors on the Curriculum Committee decide on what the curriculum should contain, then put it up to a vote of the department faculty. Majority wins. You think the democrats and republicans have smoke-filled back rooms? You should see the curriculum process!
First of all, some of the professors are just down-right lazy. They want to do as little work as possible with their classes, so that they can spend their precious time writing research papers. If they can find textbook vendors that supply all of the material that they need- such as powerpoint presentations, tests, answers , grading software, that's a sure way to make it into the curriculum. That way, they don't even need to UNDERSTAND what they're teaching! And we expect the STUDENTS to understand.
Next, there is the trading of a left-handed pitcher for a centerfielder, or more appropriately "I'll support your new class, if you support mine". Never mind if the class is something like "The sexlife of the spotted slug".
Then there is the "You can't put your class in there because there aren't many other schools teaching it". One of the things you have to understand is that most academics are FOLLOWERS, not LEADERS. When they develop a new curriculum, the first thing they do is google other similar institutional curricula, and try to copy whatever they do,as a start.
Now that's a sure way to make sure that the colleges stay about 10 years BEHIND the curve! Furthermore, these are the SAME professors that will charge students with PLAGIARISM! I wonder where the students learned how to plagiarize?
Then there is the obsession with Bloom's taxonomy. For those not in academia, a quick summary-
When classes are devised, there are a list outcomes or competencies that a given class must produce, such as "Be able to understand a business plan"
or "Be able to construct a business plan".
Most people understand that the first item requires less skill than the second. The competencies involve verbs (understand and construct) and nouns (business plan). Blooms taxonomy assigns "levels" to each major verb- typically 100, 200, 300 and 400 levels. 100 level (typically freshmen )courses should have competencies that are mostly 100, etc. In theory, that makes sense, and the spirit of the taxonomy, I have no problem with. Unfortunately, many times, the focus becomes the verbs themselves, and the material doesn't really reflect the level of skill. In other words, they may REALLY be teaching a 100 competency in a 400 level course, but they've fooled the committee by cleverly using a 400 level verb.Again, with the "buddy" system they use, committee members wink and pass the course, knowing that the outsiders that enforce the rules of curriculum development, don't have a clue as to the technical meaning of the competencies.

I certainly could go on and on, but I would rather hear from others. I'm sure I'll get some academics that have a ball with my post, but I'm used to it.

reply to post by deltaboy

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Yes, very true. Ron Paul's candidacy is a perfect example of how we can show them that what happened over 200 years ago, is relevant to today. If you look at my signature, you'll see how what Jefferson predicted over 200 years ago, is exactly what is happening today, with the foreclosures, etc. Ron Paul understood this, but his message wasn't received, in part, because people didn't understand or even know about Jefferson and his conflict with Hamilton regarding the banking and monetary system.

Those that don't learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat those mistakes.

Good post.

reply to post by blackthorne

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"p.s. my favorite president is william henry harrison. president for 30 days, he could not screw any thing up! LOL! "

Yesterday, on TV was a local add. Since it was Presidents Day, they had a William Henry Harrison sale, because they felt that everyone spent too much time concentrating on George Washington and Abe Lincoln. My wife and I really had a good laugh with that one.





[edit on 19-2-2008 by ProfEmeritus]

Your thread title should read: THE MORONIFICATION OF A NATION!

The whole premise is that stupid people; meaning ignorant, uninformed and illogical people pose no real threat to the elites. If you have no understanding of history or how it is destined to repeat itself one could certainly guarantee that the dumbed-down masses will never see IT coming. THAT is EXACTLY the point! People who are armed with knowledge, logic and understanding would certainly never allow us to be travelling down this path and repeating the mistakes of Germany circa 1930s!

I'm not the least bit suprised of these stats but am horribly saddened as they only confirm that which i have known for so long... we are being conditioned to become slaves!