You really need to take these "Documentaries" with a grain of salt. It's very easy to make accusations against the military, and claim that those they have captured, interrogated, or killed are completelty innocent civilians. I am not sayin that it is impossible for an innocent to have died during interrogation, but when we all say "torture", the generally accepted idea of such involves mutilation, and extreme physical pain. The United States Military does not perform torture in the classic sense of the word. They use mental deprivation to create an adverse environment in order to break down the suspects pyschological barrier. Some may disapprove of this, but I stress that such techniques should be put into a truly relevant perspective. Where as those we are fighting against would not hesitate in beheading an American/Ally, or mutilating them, we use methods which although mentally anguishing, leave no permanent physical ailments. I can imagine an innocent going through this, and I would definitely feel for a person if after using such methods I found them to be innocent. I really would feel bad, because I myself have been through certain adverse situations, and I know how it can leave lasting mental scars.

Just remember though, if this person died I am certain it was an accident or negligence through the use of improperly trained interrogators. Don't judge the military as a whole, or the general techniques used, because more often than not no one dies from these methods of obtaining information. I know it might be ugly, but as long as the methods are regulated and done by professionals knowledgable in the techniques, along with being provided EMT training in case of accidents, it seems an acceptable form of suspect information gathering.

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
You really need to take these "Documentaries" with a grain of salt.

The United States Military does not perform torture in the classic sense of the word. They use mental deprivation to create an adverse environment in order to break down the suspects pyschological barrier.

Nice blanket statement. Are you a former guard or interrogator in Abu Gharib or in another government detantion center not located in the USA? If you are/were not, I do not see how you can make this statement.

Where as those we are fighting against would not hesitate in beheading an American/Ally, or mutilating them, we use methods which although mentally anguishing, leave no permanent physical ailments.

Another blanket statement. Seems I remember some photos released by the MSM a couple years ago that totally debunk your statement. Electrical wires anyone?

The news article referenced says this film depicts real acts perpetrated by the U.S. government. Does any one know if the story is supposed to have any truth to it beyond that?

Someone ACCIDENTALLY broke BOTH his legs, multiple times, during 'questioning'?????
Because someone else gave his name as a suspect in exchange for MONEY?

I guess he was one of the lucky ones. Dead after five days instead of six years.

I'm so glad I don't have family over there.

So, do they call him 'an innocent cabdriver' because he died without confessing any terrorist activites? Is that like claiming the girl was innocent of witchcraft because she didn't float?

thanks for posting, i found this on google...

it presents a good question as well: does murder count as torture? they claim that murder is the ultimate torture.

they make another good point. The entire mentality of the war from day one has been "us vs them." So if you witness a prisoner being tortured by "us," and then you speak up for "them," what does that make you?

p.s. I want to add that this is a very sad film. It reflects the attitudes and techniques I encountered throughout the military. I would say a hefty majority of your front line support has been brainwashed with this exact mentality.

They tried it on me, and everyone else I knew. It actually sinks in for lots of them, for some people being brainwashed is the only way they can cope with being in combat. It sort of absolves all responsibility and personal accountability due to shock and everything else that goes through your head.

Hearing about the mistake they made in taking this poor man to be tortured and ultimately killed is so sad, but I think it is one of the most important stories of this decade. Highly recommended.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by scientist]

Originally posted by TheAgentNineteen
You really need to take these "Documentaries" with a grain of salt. It's very easy to make accusations against the military, and claim that those they have captured, interrogated, or killed are completelty innocent civilians...

Personally I think it was swamp gas, or maybe a Chinese lantern...

[edit on 18-2-2008 by rizla]

I for one believe that the Powers That Be do not want this film to get the light of day in America. Anything that sullies the interests of the powers and money behind the Bush/Cheney machine will get chewed, swallowed and come out smelling like cow pie. Just ask any CIA gook who got in the way of this present day, well oiled, beast. If they are not dead, outed or forced to work in some wasteland as a MSNBC commentator then they have been cowed under by the good German ethic that now grips the Whitehouse and forced to tow the line of lies put forth by Chancellor Bush.

It seems that the Dick/Bush Whitehouse has forgotten who put them in power. Namely your average angry white guy. And it seems to me that these guys that labor and toil to make America great while being crapped upon by every major interest group in the country are having a change of heart and they want the America that has been loved by all people who love freedom back.

Everyone has forgotten these guys. These guys have never forgot America.

They are sick and tired of having this country's name sullied by big corporate/political/military interest groups who hide their dirty deeds under an American flag.


[edit on 18-2-2008 by whiteraven]

The Discovery Channel has done this a few times before. I can't remember what all the shows were called or what they were about, but the one that's probably the most well known one is called Conspiracy of Silence. Some people say it was never meant to air on Discovery at all, but it was listed in TV Guide before it was pulled. I've seen people say the whole Discovery channel story was fabricated just to get this video some attention. That's all BS.

There's a thread around here titled "I've been censored" I believe, that talks about this.

The Discovery Channel is one of my favorite channels, but I can't stand when they bow down to pressure. Watching it right now as I type this. Mythbusters marathon

I hate to say it, but I honestly believe we will be talking about these things happening right here at home within a few years. People being arrested and never coming back. There is a greater risk from domestic terrorists after all. Just a matter of time before you are a suspect my friends.

starred and flagged.

Originally posted by scientist
thanks for posting, i found this on google...

p.s. I want to add that this is a very sad film. It reflects the attitudes and techniques I encountered throughout the military. I would say a hefty majority of your front line support has been brainwashed with this exact mentality.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by scientist]

You have hit upon something very important here. I do not believe that U.S. Americans are monsters, but something monstrous has been done to the men and women who serve in the U.S.A.'s military and intelligence agencies.

I feel certain that their minds have been deliberately tampered with so as to create an alter of the natural personality, an alter that is capable of such horrendous and heinous acts.

Yes, war can fracture human minds, but it seems to me that something far more intentional is going on in the U.S. armed services -- a deliberate planned and orchestrated conditioning to make good men into immoral war machines in the flesh.

You know a film like this could ruin your day. You know cruisin down the Highway in your SUV with the little ones arguing over Sponge Bob or Hannah Montana in the back seat...what a downer!

Nobody gets drafted anymore...theres nothing on the news...it's not really so bad ...don't exagerate...no one is really suffering and, after all, they asked for it...shouldn't have attacked us on 9/11...those crazy religous fanatics!

Immoral war machines?
Minds tampered with?
Are you familiar with the term "useful idiot"
WE whom have made these debates possible, resent your alternate reality.
Without the killers you wish to abrogate, you couldn't be here spouting your (see terms and conditions).
What is done in theatre is done. We, U.S. did alot of terrible things in WWII. Would you prefer to be calling Adolph "dear Leader" right now?
You know, sometimes the end does justify the means.
Get It?

Originally posted by LAUGHING-CAT
You know, sometimes the end does justify the means.

But when the means has been proven over and over again to be ineffective- wait, let's stop right there. Ineffective <--- ???

You know, people like you will argue that extreme torture such as we've seen in this film IS effective. Effective for what though, is the question. If effective means that you just about kill someone until they realize that they had better say what you want to hear or they will die- then sure, yeah it's effective. But that method is about as laughable as a laughing cat. And more importantly, as painful as death. To others. Not you.

It has been stated by experts in the matter that more reliable evidence, both in quantity and quality, is obtained by treating detainees with some form of decency and gaining their confidence. The film provides some pretty disturbing video footage of John McCain, who has at least fought for detainee rights- I will say that about the man, and he deserves credit for that. Maybe you might want to consider some of his points, seeing as he's been there, done that. Although I will temper that with the issue of his alleged selling out of military secrets and post war cover up by having that group of POW's records sealed.

Another issue is what this publicity over the matter does to infuriate further anti US sentiment, and the results that it will undoubtedly bring upon future soldiers captured in the war. They will not be pretty.

[edit on 18-2-2008 by TrueAmerican]

Originally posted by TrueAmerican

Another issue is what this publicity over the matter does to infuriate further anti US sentiment, and the results that it will undoubtedly bring upon future soldiers captured in the war. They will not be pretty.

This is in line with U.S. Congressman Ron Paul's excellent point about "Blowback" -- and you point clearly to those who would pay the price on the front lines -- the men and women of the military who are taken captive.

It may be easier to think of the military as a nameless faceless group in uniform, but one must realise that we are talking about someone's son, someone's daughter. Not one of us would like to see our own child suffer because of the hatred engendered against our country because of our military's and intelligence agencies' methods and protocols endorsing torture.

Originally posted by Pellevoisin

You have hit upon something very important here. I do not believe that U.S. Americans are monsters, but something monstrous has been done to the men and women who serve in the U.S.A.'s military and intelligence agencies.

I feel certain that their minds have been deliberately tampered with so as to create an alter of the natural personality, an alter that is capable of such horrendous and heinous acts.

Actually, I am betting that the US military personnel has the exact same, untampered mind as any other average human. Just look at the Stanford Prison Experiment and the Milgram Experiment. I guess its easier to accept the idea of brainwashing than the truth of human wickedness.