The Hero Pattern (Could Jesus be fake?)...

I think that, while not a fake, Jesus was not the son of God that he or his disciples claimed that he was. I know that others will not agree with my assessment, and that's okay. I think it more likely that he was a prophet much like Moses and Muhammed were to the Jewish and Islamic Religions. As a prophet, he deserves to be remembered, as do Moses and Muhammed and the other prophets. I don't feel, however, that as a prophet he should be worshipped as God on Earth. He, Jesus, obviously believed in God, and put forth Gods word as God had called him, Moses, and Muhammed to do. Doesn't that force us to take our eyes off of God? And if our eyes are not on God, aren't we doing what Satan would have us do? As I stated earlier, I know some people will not agree with me. That's okay. We don't have to agree on everything.

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Now that was an awesome response!

 

Thanks. First I want too say I am a lay person and a relatively new Christian but the truth of reality is so much more fantastic than I ever anticipated that I have thrown myself into studying the Bible and Ancient text. I am just now learning some of this really ancient stuff so I may make mistakes and I could be wrong about the details, but the gist of the story I believe to be accurate. I base my opinion on the work of scholars like Dr Mike Heiser, Beth Vegh and undo who posts here at ATS has been a big influence. Check undo's posts in the Stargates are Real thread, others as well.

I think the tale should be told here - especially to defend the reality of the savior of all mankind Jesus.

So am I correct in assuming you are saying that Zeus, Oedipus, Hercales, Theseus, Romulus, Perseus, Jason, Bellerophon, Pelops, Asclepios, Dionysos, Apollo, Joseph, Moses, Elijah, Watu Gunung, Nyikang, Sigurd (or Siegfried), Llew Llawgyffees, Arthur, and Robin Hood. Are all descendants of these "Fallen Angels"? For these are the examples Lord Raglan uses in his book. Not to mention the ones I listed as "current heroes". Well aside from me, for as to my knowledge I am not a fallen angel.

I will not comment on all of those mythical figures because I do not have enough background to do so. Some them are just literary but I will postulate some originate form a grain of truth about Angelic (Extra Terrestrial if you prefer) or hybrid beings. Check with undo.

And am I also correct in assuming that the stance has changed for a defense against the pattern from:
vilizations
Satan was the aforementioned heroes.

to

The aforementioned heroes were other "fallen angels", or their offspring.

Or a combination of both?

Satan has appeared many times that is true. King of Tyre comes to mind.
Clearskies has that right. But demons and Fallen Angels are different as I explained.

Angels are not all Fallen only 1/3 fell. The Book of Enoch is about "the Watchers". The ones who interfere with mankind are usually Fallen. The Ancient Sumerians (oldest known civilization) wrote about them, surely Satan was there as there God Enki.
but the Father God or a good Arch Angel was their god Enlil.
Zeus would be an Angelic being and he fathered Hercules with a human woman so Hercules is a Nephilm, a hybrid. That makes Zeus a fallen angel in my book because he interfered. So it would be a combination of both.

Since Jesus came he fulfilled the prophecy of the seed form Eve. So the good Angels are all under him and do not interfere. We are told to test the spirits (remember Angels are spirits)
1 John 4:1-3

1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God.

And if you respond with, just the ones prior to JC. Then how do you explain the pattern still showing up today? Clearly Harry Potter is not a real person, and can not be the spawn of a fallen angel.

I must admit this stuff is still blowing my mind as well, but consider if most of the ancient kings and leaders in the ancient times were Angelic or hybrid then why would it be different today? They would play it cool on public displays of supernatural power. I would postulate at least behind the scenes they are influencing things to a great degree. Who do you think the Illuminati are? It's no secret that less than 5% of the worlds wealth is held by a few families and elites. Note bloodlines are important. The Royals for instance.

We've been seeing them as the UFO phenomenon. Disclosure will come and then you will the supernatural as Alien technology and higher evolved minds. They will discount Christ and set themselves up as Gods. Behind it all is the old serpent being.

Now this is just theory based on what I and other have observed with the UFO and abduction scenario that has been getting more and more intense.

Quite naturally, because there is so much historical precedent for this hero model people also seek to emulate it, who doesn't want to be a hero? Of course writers use it as a model for their characters.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Thank you for clearing up my assumptions! And I do like your belief structure, while I may not agree with it. I will add some of the other "heroes" when I get some more free time so you may better understand their backgrounds.

I have been learning much more about the Christian faith these last few days, than the many years I spent as one. From my experience the pastors/preachers do not like the tough questions. And tend to avoid them with the "Ask "God" about it." Needless to say that didn't wet my whistle.

Now one last question, I am a bit unexperienced when it comes to the book of Enoch. However one thought has been nagging me. Is this the book that details JC's younger years? (among other things)

And for Wally Conley,

You will not get any harsh comments from me, everyone is entitled to their beliefs. The main purpose of this thread is to point out correlations between JC and "heroes". While I personally do not believe he is what is depicted in the Bible, it is not my place to tell others to do the same. Which, from what I gathered from your post, is a similar stance to your ideals.

[edit] I think you missed Elijah and Moses being some of the "heroes", any comments on those two? (unless you think they too are fictional?)

[edit on 2/21/2008 by adigregorio]

reply to post by adigregorio


Enoch is mentioned in Genesis as a man who walked with God. he was so faithful to God that he didn't die. He was taken up into heaven.

The Book of Enoch was suppressed by the early Roman Church in what amounts to a theological coverup. It is quoted in the regular Bible cannon in Jude 6-7 (talking about fallen angels). It was rediscovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls find. It details the activities of the pre flood. It has prophecies of Jesus that are off the charts accurate - and it iis a BC text.

There really is not a record of Jesus early life.

If you like fiction Anne Rice wrote one. It's fun.

Hiya,

Originally posted by adigregorio
Well let us take a look at Jesus.

His father was (2) god (also referred to as Lord (aka king)).

Pardon?
God is not a king. And Jesus' father was a tekton (often translated as "carpenter", but better would be "craftsman".)

(9) We are told nothing of his childhood.

Pardon?
We are told something about his childhood - the story of confounding the priests in the Temple when he was 12. And, the apocryphal Gospels have many tales of Jesus' childhood (including killing his play-mates.)

(11) After a victory over Satan, he becomes (13) "king of the Jews".

Pardon?
Jesus was not King of the Jews.

(14) For a time he reigns uneventfully,

Pardon?
Jesus did not reign.

(17) driven from his throne as king of the jews.

Pardon?
Jesus never sat on the throne, he was not King of the Jews

(21) His body is never buried,

Pardon?
His body WAS buried in a tomb.

So let's see, a grand total of 19 points. Looks to me that the hero still exists and is worshiped to this day.

But 6 of them were wrong - according to the stories that is, I don't think any of it happened.

Now please, comments. Remember I do not expect you to change your beliefs over this thread. I just find it odd that this pattern exists. Everyone has a right to do what they want to do, believe in what they want to believe, etc.

I do indeed think Jesus was a myth,
but this analysis is faulty in several places.


And by the way - Zeitgeist is rubbish - try checking some of it's claims and you will find many of them are false (e.g. the claims of Mithra or Krishna being born on December 25th - not true.)


Iasion


[edit on 21-2-2008 by Iasion]

reply to post by adigregorio

I actually believe that Moses and Muhammed were real life persons, as there is too much real evidence of this in historical records. Whereas, with Jesus, most, if not all, of what we know of him comes only from the disciples. So that makes me wonder if he really did exist. And, even then, there are contradictions everywhere in the New Testament, especially in Matthew, Mark, Luks, and John. There are dicrepencies even in the Old Testament. Most of which have been posted on in other threads.

Originally posted by Iasion

Originally posted by adigregorio
Well let us take a look at Jesus.

His father was (2) god (also referred to as Lord (aka king)).

Pardon?
God is not a king. And Jesus' father was a tekton (often translated as "carpenter", but better would be "craftsman".)

So you are saying the the "carpenter" is the X to his mothers Y? Or, the person who had intercourse with his mother to conceive Jesus? And I was taught for many years that "God" was indeed a king.

Originally posted by Iasion

(9) We are told nothing of his childhood.

Pardon?
We are told something about his childhood - the story of confounding the priests in the Temple when he was 12. And, the apocryphal Gospels have many tales of Jesus' childhood (including killing his play-mates.)

Again, are you saying that these gospels are in many of the churches? If not, how many people actually know of these gospels? And omitting those gospels, one "tale" about a 12 year old is hardly an entire childhood.

Originally posted by Iasion

(11) After a victory over Satan, he becomes (13) "king of the Jews".

Pardon?
Jesus was not King of the Jews.

Again, he is referred to as "King of the Jews" many times. Pilot tells the Jews, here is your king (or something to that effect)

Originally posted by Iasion

(14) For a time he reigns uneventfully,

Pardon?
Jesus did not reign.

Really? Then how is it that he prescribed laws for the people to follow? If he was not in a "ruling" position he would have been laughed at.

Originally posted by Iasion

(17) driven from his throne as king of the jews.

Pardon?
Jesus never sat on the throne, he was not King of the Jews

No, he never had a physical throne. But he was driven from his "seat of power" which would imply a throne metaphorically, at least in my interpretation.

Originally posted by Iasion

(21) His body is never buried,

Pardon?
His body WAS buried in a tomb.

Ahhh, so he was buried, as in covered up, in a tomb? I always thought he was wrapped up and placed in a tomb. Of course the dictionary.com definition says being in a tomb signifies burial. So I will give you this one, he is down to 18/22.

Originally posted by Iasion

So let's see, a grand total of 19 points. Looks to me that the hero still exists and is worshiped to this day.

But 6 of them were wrong - according to the stories that is, I don't think any of it happened.

So far by my count only one is incorrect, and that is because of a semantics issue. Which is how you attempted to discount the others I mentioned.

Originally posted by Iasion
I do indeed think Jesus was a myth,
but this analysis is faulty in several places.

I respect your opinion, both of them. But others, who believe he is not a myth, have not tried to pick apart my application of the pattern to him. Which would lead me to believe they are/were taught the same things I was about him.

Originally posted by Iasion
And by the way - Zeitgeist is rubbish - try checking some of it's claims and you will find many of them are false (e.g. the claims of Mithra or Krishna being born on December 25th - not true.)

JC was not born on that date according to what I have looked into. It was the pagan celebration of the Winter Solstice, and was adopted by the church as the date of their saviors birth. If you would like I can hunt down some research on this, but I do not think it is on topic so I would send it via u2u.

Either way, thank you for the post! And I do appreciate your comments, even if I do not agree with them 100%

[edit] Upon further reflection I take back that point, he was called into heaven after rising from the dead! So there goes his burial! (19/22)

[edit on 2/21/2008 by adigregorio]

If Jesus was a myth. Why would so many men lay down their lives for him?
Men who were his contemporaries. A man might give his life for the truth but seldom for a lie. And most were tortured and never recanted.

content from external source

Matthew suffered martyrdom in Ethopia, killed by a sword wound.

Mark died in Alexandria, Egypt, dragged by horses through the streets until he was dead.

Luke was hanged in Greece as a result of his tremendous preaching to the lost.

John was boiled in a huge basin of boiling oil during a wave of persecution in Rome. However, he was miraculously delivered from death. John was then sentenced to the mines on the prison island of Patmos where he wrote his prophetic Book of Revelation. The Apostle John was later freed and returned to serve as a bishop in modern Turkey. He died an old man, the only Apostle to die peacefully.

Peter,was crucified upside down on an x-shaped cross, according to Church tradition, because he told his tormentors that he felt unworthy to die the same way that Jesus Christ had died.

James the Just, the leader of the Church in Jerusalem and brother of Jesus, was thrown down more than a hundred feet from the southeast pinnacle of the Temple when he refused to deny his faith in Christ. When they discovered that he survived the fall, his enemies beat James to death with a fuller's club. This was the same pinnacle where Satan had taken Jesus during the Temptation.

James the Greater, a son of Zebedee, was a fisherman by trade when Jesus called him to a lifetime of ministry. As a strong leader of the Church, James was ultimately beheaded at Jerusalem. The Roman soldier who guarded James watched amazed as James defended his faith at his trial. Later, the officer walked beside James to the place of execution. Overcome by conviction, he declared his new faith to the judge and knelt beside James to accept beheading as a Christian.

Bartholomew, also known as Nathanael, was a missionary to Asia. He witnessed about our Lord in present day Turkey. He was whipped to death for his preaching in Armenia.

Thomas was speared and died on one of his missionary trips to establish the Church in India.

Jude, another brother of Jesus, was killed with arrows after refusing to deny his faith in Christ.

Matthias, the Apostle chosen to replace the traitor Judas Iscariot, was stoned and beheaded.

Barnabas, one of the group of seventy disciples, was stoned to death at Salonica.

Paul was tortured and then beheaded by the evil Emperor Nero at Rome in A.D. 67. Paul endured a lengthy imprisonment which allowed him to write his many epistles to the Churches he had formed throughout the Roman Empire. These letters, which taught many of the foundational doctrines of Christianity, from a large portion of the New Testament.

source

[edit on 2/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
If Jesus was a myth. Why would so many men lay down their lives for him?
Men who were his contemporaries. A man might give his life for the truth but seldom for a lie. And most were tortured and never recanted.

Because they believed he was real. People do many things for their beliefs. Take suicide bombers for instance. Why would they kill themselves if there really isn't a bunch of virgins waiting for them? I am not trying to compare followers of Jesus to the bombers. I just needed a belief that others think is a false one, and drastic measures have been done for said belief.

About those who knew JC, I do not have the credentials to make a valid assumption. Well at least until I get a time machine. Look at the story of Joseph Smith for an example of people dying for their leaders cause. (Mormons) I do not wish to recount it here, well what little I know.

Beliefs are worth dying for apparently. So if one believes in something strong enough, then death is a viable answer. Someone breaks into your home, threatens your family. The person will kill your family, or just you. Which would you choose? (crummy example, but I didn't have time to prepare )

reply to post by adigregorio


Most of those guys hung out with him so it wasn't just a belief...

James was his brother. There is little doubt he was a man who walked the earth.

The Jews had him killed but their historian, Joesphus who was not a Christian, wrote of him.

1. Jesus was "called Christ"
2. James was his brother (and was stoned)
3. Herod Agrippa dies suddently [c/- Acts 12:19-23]
4. Herod Antipas killed John the Baptist
5. Jesus was a wise man
6. Jesus did suprising feats
7. Jesus was a teacher
8. Jesus led away Jews and Greeks
9. Pilate condemned Jesus to the cross
10. Jesus was impeached by high standing Jews
11. Jesus' following continued after his death (and until when Josephus wrote this in about 90AD)

Only historian with an atheistic agenda seriously make the laughable argument he didn't exist.

edit add source material for my point

Antiquities 18.3.3. "Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews, and many of the Gentiles. He was the Christ; and when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."

source

[edit on 2/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Alright I have a question for you, unfortunately I do not have the quote to back this up, but I will if asked find it.

Between JC's life and the writing of the first gospel (the ones included in the well known canon) There was a gap of 40+ years. One of the 4 gospels mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple, which occurred in 70 AD* (*if I remember right) So we have to assume that they were written after its destruction.

The only documents I am aware of that fill this gap are Saul's letters. However, he did not mention Jesus being a real person. Nor did he know of any of the events that took place during JC's life. Other than the last 3 crucifixion, death, resurrection. And of those 3 he did not place them here on earth, but in a mythical realm. So from what I remember, Saul did not know of Mary, Joseph, Herod, etc. If this had happened a few decades before Saul, wouldn't he have heard of these things?

There is a scripture that comes to mind about this discussion...

Hebrews 8:4

If he had been on earth he would not have been a priest at all, because there are other priests who make the offerings ordered by the law;

Why use the word "had" if JC was really on the planet? And why did Saul not remember Jesus?

If I remember correctly, the documentary "The God Who Wasn't There" goes into these a bit. I will hunt for some video clips to see if I am correct.

reply to post by adigregorio


For the first question.

content from external source

CORNELIUS TACITUS (55 - 120 A.D.) Tacitus was a 1st and 2nd century Roman historian who lived through
the reigns of over half a dozen Roman emperors. Considered one of the greatest historians of ancient Rome,
Tacitus verifies the Biblical account of Jesus' execution at the hands of Pontius Pilate who governed Judea from
26-36 A.D. during the reign of Tiberius.

"Christus, the founder of the [Christian] name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the
reign of Tiberius. But the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time, broke out again, not only through Judea,
where the mischief originated, by through the city of Rome also." Annals XV, 44

What this passage reveals and how it confirms the Biblical account:

* Jesus did exist
* Jesus was the founder of Christianity
* Jesus was put to death by Pilate
* Christianity originated in Judea (With Jesus)
* Christianity later spread to Rome (Through the Apostles and Evangelists)

source

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Did he also verify that Jesus rose from the dead, and was called up into heaven? Remember I believe that Jesus was not who he was depicted to be in the Bible. Not that he never existed. The only way one could be 100% sure of that is to travel to that time and witness events for themselves.

Now I will state that I do think that Jesus never existed, but that is just my opinion. And I do not profess it to be the truth.

**note** That last part is intended for all readers of this thread, not a specific remark to any one person

Originally posted by adigregorio
reply to post by Bigwhammy

 

Hebrews 8:4

If he had been on earth he would not have been a priest at all, because there are other priests who make the offerings ordered by the law;

Why use the word "had" if JC was really on the planet? And why did Saul not remember Jesus?

We don't know who wrote Hebrews actually but it was written after the cross so he wasn't on the earth.

What translation is that??? The New American Atheist Translation?

NIV

4If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, for there are already men who offer the gifts prescribed by the law.

KJV

4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

NAST

4Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who (I)offer the gifts according to the Law;

None are past tense...

[edit on 2/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
What translation is that??? The New American Atheist Translation?
[edit on 2/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Actually it is the "Bible in Basic English" my "good" bibles are still in boxes from the move back to California, so I am stuck with mediocre versions (IMO). So apologies for that. I googled up the scripture and sure enough all other versions listed use "were" instead of "had".

All other versions use WERE instead of HAD

Sorry again!

[edit] What about the gap I mentioned above?

[edit on 2/21/2008 by adigregorio]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
What translation is that??? The New American Atheist Translation?

THAT literally made me laugh out loud.

Anyways, yes. The correct passage is "If He were..." As in, if He had remained on the earth.

See: HERE and continue on down the translations.

*still laughing at BW*

reply to post by adigregorio


Exactly he wasn't on earth when the author wrote it. It was after the cross. So what's the point?


Edit --> Big difference in "had been" and "were" remember it was written in Greek anyway. But that is a lame argument for he was never on Earth. It's a waste of time. You said you believed he was on earth anyway.

[edit on 2/21/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by adigregorio
Between JC's life and the writing of the first gospel (the ones included in the well known canon) There was a gap of 40+ years. One of the 4 gospels mentions the destruction of the Jewish temple, which occurred in 70 AD* (*if I remember right) So we have to assume that they were written after its destruction.

The only documents I am aware of that fill this gap are Saul's letters. However, he did not mention Jesus being a real person. Nor did he know of any of the events that took place during JC's life. Other than the last 3 crucifixion, death, resurrection. And of those 3 he did not place them here on earth, but in a mythical realm. So from what I remember, Saul did not know of Mary, Joseph, Herod, etc. If this had happened a few decades before Saul, wouldn't he have heard of these things?

This is the "gap" I am talking about, please ignore my horrid version of Heb 8:4


[edit]

Originally posted by adigregorio
Now I will state that I do think that Jesus never existed, but that is just my opinion. And I do not profess it to be the truth.

**note** That last part is intended for all readers of this thread, not a specific remark to any one person

Just to define where I stand on Jesus.

[edit2] Forgot to add [edit] on the first edit sheeeeesh

[edit on 2/21/2008 by adigregorio]

[edit on 2/21/2008 by adigregorio]

reply to post by adigregorio


didn't your read this



covers your gap

reply to post by Bigwhammy


So am I correct in assuming that you are saying Saul's teachings were not entirely true? The Roman obviously contradicts some key elements in Saul's letters.