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How does the Catholic Church get away with it?

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posted on Jul, 13 2008 @ 10:41 PM
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Originally posted by miriam0566
looked over the catechism for a few hours, mostly just browsing. its funny though that not everything is backed up scripturally. the doctrine that conflicts with scripture either has no scriptural reference or it references some writing after the bible.


Hi! I've sort of given up for a while at this point. It gets very frustrating and I think that the Catholics on this board and the anti-Catholics here are talking past each other. I'm going to take a breather for a while, but I thought that you may be interested in where in the Bible certain concepts in Catholicism is found.

This is an excellent site that you may want to check out. I'm sure that you won't agree with the exegesis found here, but it will hopefully provide you with the Catholic perspective. I at least hold out some hope that people can say 'I disagree, but I see their point'.

www.scripturecatholic.com

Have a great day!

Eric



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 02:59 AM
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Originally posted by The angel of light
Let me leave Jacob Bronowski, one of the most recognized philosphers of Science of the XX century to respond your comment.


with all that you quoted, he still doesnt explain how veneration of the virgin isnt idol worship.

in fact i would say it supports my statement that catholicism regularly bends the word of god to suit the situation.



miriam0565
Well it is logical than when there are no solid elements to discredit a person or an institution the most desperate action is to try to insult it systematically.


when there are no solid elements? the bible doesnt count now?

all one has to do is compare catholic doctrine with scripture, and the whole thing falls apart. sure you have chirch tradition and i think you have something called church law too, but its unscriptural. im not insulting. its cold hard fact.




the ark of covenant was only seen by the high priest and only once a year. other than that, it was hidden in the most holy compartment. god was said to reside above it between the 2 cherubs, not in it. so no, its not an idol


Congratulations, you have learnt the lesson I taught very well, it is even for me so difficutl to find a better argument to refute Luther's worst error and most dubious accusations against the Roman Church.


you still dont get it. the ark 1 was not an altar and 2 was not worshiped.

the most holy was symbolic of the presence of god. the ark itsself was not prayed to.

in contrast

exodus 32:[4] And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.[5] And when Aaron saw it, he built an altar before it; and Aaron made proclamation, and said, To morrow is a feast to the LORD.

notice "LORD", in the original hebrew transcript YHWH is used.

so aaron was making this calf and a representation of YHWH, to bless him and thank him. what was the LORD's reaction?

[35] And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.

keep in mind, aaron was to be high priest, he was a man of authority. the people wanted a visual thing to worship. in this case some believed that making something visual that represented god was ok, but it wasnt.

we all know that the cross with the beautifully crafted jesus on it isnt actually jesus, nor is it some other god. i also understand that alot of people use it as a visual aid in praying to jesus, but that doesnt mean it isnt idolatry.

comparing it to the ark is not possible, technically the ark was a throne for god, not an object of veneration.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by EricD
I at least hold out some hope that people can say 'I disagree, but I see their point'.


if someone says im catholic because thats what i believe, i say wonderful.

if someone says im catholic because thats the belief thats in harmony with the bible, then i say sorry but no.

its one thing to have respect for ones beliefs. its another to swallow a blatant non-truth.



posted on Jul, 14 2008 @ 03:42 AM
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1 Tim 2:1-2 - because Jesus Christ is the one mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5), many Protestants deny the Catholic belief that the saints on earth and in heaven can mediate on our behalf. But before Paul's teaching about Jesus as the "one mediator," Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator. Why?

1 Tim 2:3 - because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. Because God is our Father and we are His children, God invites us to participate in Christ's role as mediator.

1 Tim. 2:5 - therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).


this from that website you gave me, it show the reasoning used to justify things....

1 tim 2
[1] I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.

i quote the website again, to show how silly this is. "Paul urges supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people. Paul is thus appealing for mediation from others besides Christ, the one mediator."

so in one sentence its intercession and another its mediation. paul NEVER told anyone in the congregation to mediate, heres why.

mediation (m-w.com) - intervention between conflicting parties to promote reconciliation, settlement, or compromise

intercession (m-w.com) - 2 : prayer, petition, or entreaty in favor of another

why is jesus mediator? because we have all sinned and god and us are conflicting parties. through christ blood, our debt can be paid. how can a sinner (part of the group that is in debt) be a mediator?

intercession is not mediation. intercession is praying for someone. like praying for a friend that is going though troubles, that simply isnt mediation.

[3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

"because this subordinate mediation is good and acceptable to God our Savior. "

but he's not, he's approving intercession (amoung other things)

[4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

"therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators)."

where does the bible mention "subordinate mediators?" is there anyone else's blood other than jesus' on the alter of god in the spiritual temple?

the statement simply adds what it feel like adding, even though that is not what the scriptures are saying.


Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by M’Clintock and Strong, points out that the invocation of “saints” lacks Scriptural support, was unknown to the early Church and was “expressly condemned by the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 481) and by the early fathers.” Though advocates cite certain “Church fathers” and ancient liturgies, this cyclopædia observes: “It must be remembered that they are only unscriptural additions, and that they originated after the infusion into the Church system of Alexandrian Neoplatonism and Oriental Magianism, which left its traces even in the most orthodox form of Christian worship, and creed also, up to the 4th and 5th centuries, a period in the history of the Christian Church when heresies were, to use a common phrase, almost the order of the day.”



Quite a few of the older Catholic saints were actually pagan gods that were re-imaged into "saints" as their pagan followers were forced into Catholicism. Basically, it was a way for the people to retain their own gods, who they knew about and were comfortable with, while being Christian at the same time.

One of the most obvious examples of this is St. Bridgit of Ireland. This Christian saint happens to have a religious sanctuary in Kildare dedicated to her. However, before that sanctuary had become a Christian site, it was a pagan temple dedicated to the Celtic goddess Brigid. Both the priestesses of the goddess Brigid and the nuns in the order of St. Bridgit have tended a sacred eternal flame in the sanctuary.

There were also a number of "sacred wells" that were originally dedicated to the goddess Brigid that are now associated with St. Bridgit.

African-American slaves did something very similar with their gods when they were forced to practice Catholicism by their masters. They began to pray to Catholic saints instead of their old gods, but they associated each saint with one of their old gods. This eventually became the religion known today as Santeria.



posted on Jul, 30 2008 @ 09:51 PM
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reply to post by VIKINGANT
 


I completly agree with you, another good point is that pope means father, so in a sense people are say your holyness the pope (the father) and was it not the scriptures that said call no man Father but God. I also recall hearing that he also has the name pontifus maximus, the same name the Roman Caesars had whom practically declared themselves as God emperor, and when using Bible numerics you can see that pontifus maximus adds up to 666, coinsidence, lol, but hay, my sources here as Im sure any reader whom is devot to the Catholic church will wish to debate with me, but i can assure that this can be proven, so dont listen to what i say, have a look for yourself


Kind regaurds, Samwise



posted on Sep, 4 2008 @ 02:02 AM
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No organization on earth - past, present or future - will be able to hold up to the scrutinies of 6 billion people and come out as having no flaws.

Regardless of if Jesus commanded us to follow His life and to live by His Fathers commandments, the Church is still run by humans, and even the "best of the best" can be pretty far down the ethics totem pole.

However, like previously mentioned, the abstaining of meet on Fridays is a tradition that isn't mandatory. There are days when abstaining from meet has to be observed, but Fridays are not part of them.

As for breaking a Commandment because you're praying to The Blessed Virgin Mary (or any other Saint); you are not praying to anyone but God. What you're doing is asking for the Saint to intercede and take your prayer to God.

The logic behind this is that your prayer to God might be "Please help me discern what I want to do with my life", but in terms of beauty it's a pretty bland prayer, and we should only offer the best of the best to our Lord. By asking Mary to intercede you're asking her to talk to her Son in a language of pure love - the love between a mother and her Son - and to bring your prayers to him in this language.

As for your last point I'm not very well versed in Church history, but as I said at the beginning, people make mistakes. Mistakes range from stealing a bagel to commiting murder, but they're all still mistakes. The vision of the church has always been to spread His love and His Word, but the means as to which they tried to do this have not always been means that are in themselves loving.

Avarice is an unfortunate sin that drives a large number of people to do unthinkable things. That's not an apology or an avoidance of guild on behalf of the Catholic church, only an explination of why some things happen.

Beyond all differences, Christians - and everyone else as well - need to come together and celebrate in the Love that God has for us. Loving someone that is difference is far more difficult than judging them, but it provides far more graces.

- Lee



posted on Nov, 2 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by EricD
 


Praying to a "DEAD" person, i.e., Mary or any other saint is USELESS. Dead people can't hear you or help you. Only God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Of course it's against the 1st and 2nd commandment...it's SO clear - you'd have to be pretty DENSE not to see it or too BLINDED by a priest. (I was a former Catholic also blinded). Just open your eyes and ears. Purgatory was CREATED by the Catholic church so they could get people to BUY their way into Heaven. It's too late, Pal after your DEAD!

How do you think they got ALL that property and those outrageously gorgeous churches???? Money from the poor and down trodden, the uneducated and the guilty. In the early church those people couldn't read. Only the educated could read so the poor accepted whatever they were told and believed them.

But you can read....can't you? What's your excuse?



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


No it isn't enough for them because if your not catholic, and give them money then you are sinner. I have read the bible too, and I do know it. I also think that any religion that actually believes that you have to baptize a baby or their soul will go to hell is just disgusting to me. How sad, even though jesus did say in the New Testamnet that all children go to him, meaning if they die before they are baptized they will still go to heaven, children and babies are innocent. if my children were to ufrotunately die i am sure they would go to heaven, and not one has been baptized. I have been baptized 4 times, and i am still not certain i am going to heaven, i will probably go to Hell but so be it!



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by Anonymous ATS
 


Asking for your fellows in Christ to pray for you is completely Biblical. That the saints are now with Christ is also Biblical (it seems to me), but it can be reasonably argued that they are not. Reasonable exegesis can be found on both sides of that debate.

Why would you insist that those who are dead can not hear your requests to pray for you? Do you have any scriptural basis for that? I'm not going to go the childish and disrespectful route of saying that you are DENSE or BLINDED by an evangelical preacher.

Can you explain how you believe that asking for fellow Christians to pray for you is in violation of the First and Second Commandments?

And what is it that I'm supposed to be reading? Is this just the old canard that Catholics don't read the Bible and if they did they wouldn't be Catholics? If that's the case, your form of fanaticism is frightening. If you are so blinded by your fervor that you can't concede that reasoning people can differ on Biblical interpretations, then that's a problem.

Have a nice day.

Eric



posted on Nov, 4 2008 @ 11:37 PM
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Originally posted by EricD
Why would you insist that those who are dead can not hear your requests to pray for you? Do you have any scriptural basis for that?


This is a question I would like answered. As I have asked in another thread, when we die, do we go straight to heaven or do we wait? If we go straight to heaven, then it is possible that they can hear us, otherwise, it is a complete waste of time praying to dead 'saints'.



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 02:13 AM
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Originally posted by VIKINGANT

Originally posted by EricD
Why would you insist that those who are dead can not hear your requests to pray for you? Do you have any scriptural basis for that?


This is a question I would like answered. As I have asked in another thread, when we die, do we go straight to heaven or do we wait? If we go straight to heaven, then it is possible that they can hear us, otherwise, it is a complete waste of time praying to dead 'saints'.


eccl 9:5,10

john 11:[24] Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

possible she is quoting jesus from something he said before and showing that she does believe. but she wasnt expecting him to ressurect him then.

2 tim 2:[17] And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
[18] Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

if the ressurection is on the last day, then what they were saying is false.

disclaimer: i believe that the resurrection happens in the last days, but i dont have many scriptures to back it up, i must admit im not too familiar on this subject



posted on Nov, 5 2008 @ 08:43 AM
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I think the reason might be, that some people dont really study the religion they have chosen or been born into. There happy to go to church once a week and let the priest read scripture for them. The vatican with it's size and so called splendour, makes the catholics visiting re-affirm their beliefs they have been falsely taught. I dont think we should blame some of the followers however, as it's easy to be fooled if you're not being mindful of what's being spoken by these religious leaders.



posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 04:06 PM
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posted on Dec, 26 2008 @ 05:59 PM
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How does the Catholic Church get away with.......(whatever).....

Because he who has the gold makes the rules.

"At this point this most spectacular of all forgeries makes its official appearance: the Donation of Constantine. Purporting to have been written by the Emperor Constantine himself, it emerged from nowhere. The document with one master stroke put the popes above kings, emperors and nations, made them the legal heirs to the territory of the Roman Empire, which it granted to them, lock stock, and barrel, and gave to St. Peter - or rather to St. Silvester and his successors - all lands to the West and beyond, indeed, all lands of the planet."

Vatican billions by Avro Manhattan

"According to Baron Manhattan’s research: “The Vatican has large investments with the Rothschilds of Britain, France and America, with the Hambros Bank, with the Credit Suisse in London and Zurich. In the United States it has large investments with the Morgan Bank, the Chase-Manhattan Bank, the First National Bank of New York, the Bankers Trust Company, and others. The Vatican has billions of shares in the most powerful international corporations such as Gulf Oil, Shell, General Motors, Bethlehem Steel, General Electric, International Business Machines, T.W.A., etc. ”
A nationally syndicated Catholic priest has stated, “The Catholic Church must be the biggest corporation in the United States. We have a branch office in every neighborhood. Our assets and real estate holdings must exceed those of Standard Oil, A.T.&T., and U.S. Steel combined. And our roster of dues-paying members must be second only to the tax rolls of the United States Government.” [The Vatican Billions]
“But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country,” Baron Manhattan explains. “The Catholic church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence.” [Vatican Billions]
Don’t forget to throw in more than 18,000 works of art. [Fortune Dec 21/87]"

some of their investments

[edit on 26-12-2008 by OhZone]



posted on Jan, 25 2009 @ 10:46 AM
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Here is the truth to all that you have discussed in here:

The reason the Roman Catholic Church is the richest organization on planet Earth and worship a man (the papacy) rather than have faith in Jesus Christ as their salvation is because the Roman Catholic Church is the Anti-Christ. As far back as Roman history goes the Romans were pagans who worshiped sun gods and idols. That is why after Christ died he said to remember the sabbath and keep it holy, well the one Commandment that Jesus specifically say to remember-the Pope changes the entire calander and deceives every generation thereafter to believe that Sunday (from the Sun God) is now the Sabbath. But the true Sabbath day is really Saturday. So the Anti-Christ has deceived almost everyone. Just look Saturday up in any dictionary. It is engrained in our society and now considered to be true. Once Rome was the most powerful nation in all of the world and carried on ther pagan ways under cover as the Roman Catholics. One day, just as the Holy Bible says the Roman empire will rise again "mystery Babylon" and make all take the mark of the beast either on their hands (by their actions) or on their foreheads (in their mind they are fooled). Thats why they are richer than Fannie Mae and Freddie Mack. They are silently infiltrating the US and do not have to answer to anyone, beacuse they have their own government, own banks and will rise up from within the US and whosoever does not bow down to the Pope will not be able to buy or sell anything, so he who accepts the mark of the beast will be lost forever and that's it. No purgatory to buy your way out. If you bow down to the pope you are worshiping a man, whom by the way bears a tiara whose number is 666.



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