It's interesting how threads like these come up from time to time, almost like clockwork. Don't have much time to post much now but let me tell you, hell is VERY real and you don't have the mental kilowatts to comprehend it. I had a near death experience because of a car accident last April and I'm just getting to the point where I can start telling my experience in detail. Let me just say for now that there are NO words to describe the fear that I felt during my experience, I tremble now just thinking about it. You have simply not experienced fear until you believe you are dead and separated from God for eternity. God is eternal, that is why judgement is eternal. We can't get our heads our "eternity" so why take any chances? According to the Bible there are different levels of punishment for the condemned after death.. I'll try and outline this when I get some more time. A couple of scriptures to think about:

"Revenge is MINE sayeth the Lord"

Mt 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear HIM which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Lu 12:5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which AFTER he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND DEATH.

Don't fool yourselves people.. I really don't care about silly symantics, and foolhardy haggling over translation arguments. Anyone who has read the Bible from front to back can NOT deny the CONTEXT of hell according to the Bible. Debate translations, metaphors and parables to your hearts content but do so at your own peril. To me even the most spiritually ignorant and undiscerning person can see the context I speak of. One leg up I have on most people I talk to this about is the fact that I had a PERSONAL experience of hell, albeit just scratching the surface. I thank Jesus everyday for sparing my life last April.


Trust me, dying time is TRUTH time and after you leave this world these words may haunt you for eternity:

From the mouth of the Almighty Himself:

Pr 1:22 How long, ye SIMPLE ONES, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? How long, you simple ones, will foolish things be dear to you? and pride a delight to the haters of authority? how long will the foolish go on hating knowledge?

Pr 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you. Be turned again by my sharp words: see, I will send the flow of my spirit on you, and make my words clear to you.

Pr 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded; Because your ears were shut to my voice; no one gave attention to my out-stretched hand;

Pr 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:


Pr 1:26 I also will LAUGH AT YOUR CALAMITY; I will MOCK when your fear COMETH;

Lu 12:20 But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy SOUL shall be REQUIRED of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?

This guy had many worldly goods but died then his soul was required of him..Hmm, soul required for WHAT? Judgement!....

Heb 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

If you just die and are no longer aware what does this mean?


Only a fool sayeth in his heart there is no God. (Psalms)


To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord Himself:

2co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


This can either be a good thing or a BAD.. VERY BAD thing:

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Where the rubber really meets the road is whether or not you believe in the Bible. If you do you have to believe in all of it. Jesus said I am the word made flesh..not PART of the word made flesh. you deny the Bible, you deny Jesus. The Holy Spirit had complete control over every "process" and every word put into the Bible.. how He did it is a mystery to me but God is God isn't He? how could He be our God if He didn't have this type of control?


Jesus died on the cross to save you from eternal (totally aware) condemnation. If you think Jesus died on the cross just to save you from "dying" the first death you are in for a seriously rude awakening beyond your wildest nightmare.

it's all in there folks. Not trying to scare anyone. Believe or not believe.





[edit on 15-2-2008 by ViewFromTheStars]

Thanks for the post ViewfromtheStars. I'm sorry you had such a scary experience. Haven't you ever questioned that it was a deception? I mean it certainly wasn't eternal was it? I applaud you on finding Jesus. It is my hope others will as well, but not through fear and intimidation. By attraction.

You take a lot of scripture out of context up there, more than I care to address. Consider this: Jesus is the light of the world. If He does not end up enlightening the whole world, then He is not the light of the world. He is---"The Lamb that taketh away the sin of theworld." (Jn 1:29) If He doesn't take away the world's sin, then He is not the Lamb that taketh away the sin of the world. That's what He's doing, and that's what He will fully do. You also face the inescapaable, that "God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." If you haven't been drawn to Christ on this side of the veil, that's what you'll face on the other side.

You say, "but some people refuse the will of God." Some people TRY to refuse the will of God, and ultimately find that rebellion is the ultimate exercise in futility. The prophet, Isaiah, recorded God's magnificently sovereign pronouncement, "I will do all my good pleasure." Now if you find yourself trying to figure out a way to prove that sending billions of people to suffer endlessly in hell, is God's good pleasure, then, my friend you are in the grip of a demonic delusion.

("How Many Whosoover" -Gavazzoni )



[edit on 2/15/2008 by Bigwhammy]

You are probably right that the picture is how Gehenna looks TODAY. That's the point. It most likely didn't look like that in the days of Jesus since it was a "garbage dump". AND, they probably burned their garbage.

I am so glad that you are here with us to speak about what lies beyond the veil.

Peace and Best wishes to you!

And it came to pass, that the beggar died (Lazarus), and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. (Luke 16: 22-24)

I have been following this thread and I didn't see these scriptures addressed. If they have been addressed here, I apologize. I wanted to see what opinions we have concerning these scriptures?

Not sure if this has been brought up yet but has anyone brought up the idea Jesus was using an analogy? Yes, it was a place where the garbage was dumped and burned outside of Jerusalem. Jerusalem is often used in metaphor as God's city. His new kingdom will be set up in Jerusalem. Therefore, those outside of the spiritual Jerusalem will be burned like garbage. Not necessarily a pleasing thought- to equate sinful humans as garbage- but it seems like that is what is going on. Jesus often uses heavy imagery and this seems to be the case in this instance.

Originally posted by jdposey
I have been following this thread and I didn't see these scriptures addressed. If they have been addressed here, I apologize. I wanted to see what opinions we have concerning these scriptures?

Sure. Thanks for bringing this one up! It is where a lot of the doctrine comes from. People try to use it literally but it is a parable. Look at the beginning of Luke 16 and you'll see the Parable of the Shrewd Manager, Jesus is teaching in parables. It naturally follows that This is the parable of: The Rich Man and Lazarus.

19"There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

The first thing to notice is the fact that Lazarus ate of the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man’s table. Now, are the crumbs literal or symbolic? If literal, then tell me how Lazarus would have had enough to eat? A few measly crumbs could hardly feed any grown man. Obviously, Christ meant that the man ate the scraps (intended for dogs or other animals). However, the literalists would demand real crumbs so they can get the Rich Man into a real burning hell!

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell,[c] where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

Then it says that Lazarus died and was carried by the angels into the bosom of Abraham. Where was Abraham’s bosom? Some people say it signifies the heavenly abode, heaven. In fact, the bosom of Abraham actually means the breast part of his body. Can they get Lazarus and ten million other redeemed Christians in that one bosom of Abraham? There would not be any room to breathe, let alone stretch ones arms. All people, however, rightly recognize that Christ is here giving a symbol. True! That is just the point that we wish to make! If one part is figurative, all can be!

We then find that Abraham is able to carry on a conversation with the Rich Man and that Lazarus could be seen with Abraham, though the text says that Abraham was "far away." How were they able to talk with one another? If Abraham and Lazarus were in heaven (as many preachers claim today), it shows that the redeemed would still be in constant contact with the rebellious sinners in hell and that the redeemed would be seeing their tortured and agonized faces as they writhed in unrelenting pain. Indeed, they are close enough to be in conversation with them! But if this story of Christ were to be taken literally, that would be the outcome. What glory would it be to see your unredeemed father, your unconverted mother, sister, brother, son, daughter, wife or husband having to experience the rigors of an eternally burning hell without any relief ever in sight, while you bask in the sunshine and happiness of Abraham’s bosom? And remember Abraham was close enough to carry on a conversation with the Rich Man. And the Rich Man was close enough to Lazarus to recognize him. Continuing with the story...

continued from above....

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Another thing that is highly irregular of our experience is the fact that the Rich Man was able to speak at all. Would he not more likely be screaming his head off at the terrible excruciating pain that he was being subjected to? Again, if the account is literal, we find a most impossible situation in the story. Even more than that, what does the Rich Man seek from Lazarus? It is not to drag him out of the fire, but simply to take a drop of cold water and put on his tongue. Why, the Rich Man ought to know that such a thing would not relieve his pain in the slightest! How can a drop of physical water give benefit to a spirit being (as the Rich Man would be)? The water, if literal, would turn into steam before it could do any good. And why did not the man ask Abraham to bring the drop of water to his tongue to cool it? Abraham was far closer to the Rich Man, or at least it looks this way because there was no conversation with Lazarus. What was so special about Lazarus that his drop of water would cool his tongue, but Abraham was not asked for any help?

The point is, the whole scene (though instructive and significant in what our Lord was trying to teach) is impossible to explain sensibly if Christ was teaching fact. However, make it a parable (as it truly is, remembering that Christ would not teach without a parable), then the message becomes beautiful and understandable. Again, everyone knows Paul did not mean literal "coals of fire on one’s head" in Romans 12:20.

It is also very important to note the context in which the parable is found. There was a reason why Christ spoke this parable at that time. Christ had just given His teaching about the unjust steward who had mishandled his master’s money (Luke 16:1–13). This parable was told to further illustrate what proper stewardship is.

The name "Lazarus" is a transliteration of the Hebrew "Eleazar" (which means "God has helped"). The name was a common Hebrew word used for eleven different persons in the Old Testament. The Rich Man was an actual son of Abraham. Christ had him calling Abraham his "father" (Luke 16:24) and Abraham acknowledged him as "son" (verse 25). Such sonship made the Rich Man a legal possessor of Abraham’s inheritance. The parable says that a "great gulf" [Greek: chasm] was fixed between the position of Abraham and Eleazar and that of the Rich Man [Judah]. What was this chasm? The Greek word means a deep ravine or valley — the "great gulf" was the Jordan rift valley the dividing line between Gentile lands and the Holyland of promise (Abraham’s inheritance). Crossing the Jordan was a typical figure recognized by the Jews as a symbol of salvation.

Once these factors are recognized, all the points in the parable (with its context) fit perfectly to give us some simple but profound teachings of Christ. It shows that the physical promises of God (though excellent) are very inferior to the spiritual redemption that anyone (Jew or Gentile) can have in Christ.

(credit to Ernest L Martins thesis The Real Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man as a source I used)

[edit on 2/16/2008 by Bigwhammy]

[edit on 2/16/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Reply to AshleyD

Yes Ashley! I think he was using symbols and parables. It was like saying "get thrown into the garbage dump" -- which does not imply eternal torture.

I am not saying there is no judgment people. My main point is that there is not eternal torture.

Judgment = punishment = instructive

Eternal punishment would senseless and is against the character of God.



[edit on 2/16/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by defcon365
As a Christian, do you reject the words of Christ and the Apostles? They both provide numerous descriptions of Hell in the Bible as a VERY real place!

Wow...that was pretty harsh, was it not?

did you read the post he made, or did you skim it for flame material?

By what the OP says, hell IS a very real place. He showed us a picture of it. It used to be a trash heap outside Jerusalem.

SHEESH.