Originally posted by Thurisaz
I believe I experienced hell for maybe 5 minutes.

I know a guy who says he died and went to heaven, saw Jesus, the Angels, the works. This happened after he fell two stories from the top of his house, landing on his head on a concrete patio. He hasn't been all there since.

Honestly! We wouldn't trust a brain on drugs so why would we trust a brain on death???

[edit on 15-2-2008 by Lilitu]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
I believe it was a conspiracy of the early catholic church to scare the masses into submission to their political rule.

Since your argument is based on YOUR BELIEF that eternal damnation is a HUGE conspiracy derived from the catholic church, it is quite FLAWED!!!

From Wikipedia:

Most modern English versions of the New Testament are based on critical reconstructions of the Greek text, such as the United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament

Copies of the Original Biblical texts exists, so unless the catholic church are time travelers and have a secret door to the past, with the agenda to scare people into political rule, I would say your wrong!

If your Christian, think about Romans 10:9 and John 3:16

What is it you are "Saved" from

Another flawed angle of yours is the fact that eternal damnation is also called the lake of fire and brimstone, not by your Himon Valley theory e.g.

Matthew 25:41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Here is another one:

Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

oh and other one:

Revelations 14:10-11 "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Hmmm, yet another and it's from the OT:

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

You want one from Paul the Apostle Paul too right???

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

There are lot more these - why not try reading it first or at least using google and wikipedia!!!

Sounds to me like your making up your own little comfy-cozy version of the Word based upon YOUR BELIEF of a catholic conspiracy...


[edit on 15-2-2008 by defcon365]

Originally posted by defcon365
If your Christian, think about Romans 10:9 and John 3:16

What is it you are "Saved" from

Another flawed angle of yours is the fact that eternal damnation is also called the lake of fire and brimstone, not by your Himon Valley theory e.g.

Matthew 25:41"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;

Here is another one:

Matthew 25:46 "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

oh and other one:

Revelations 14:10-11 "he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

Hmmm, yet another and it's from the OT:

Daniel 12:2 "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

You want one from Paul the Apostle Paul too right???

2 Thessalonians 1:9 "These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power"

There are lot more these - why not try reading it first or at least using google and wikipedia!!!

Sounds to me like your making up your own little comfy-cozy version of the Word based upon YOUR BELIEF of a catholic conspiracy...

Thanks for doing this work for me (us). I was getting so tired and bored of posting the same quotes over and over again because people don't want to think of Hell as fire and torment. Can someone please make a thread where Christians are challenged to look up the same verses we've had to rehash a thousand times? Not that you'd read them, but it'd at least give me something new to do.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Not even the rebuttals are original. Guys, for those who honestly think this thread is talking about something new, take a look at previous ATS threads. I cannot number how many there are and how many times we've had the same exact discussion.

[edit on 15-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Thurisaz
I believe I experienced hell for maybe 5 minutes.

I did not see a pic like this. In fact I did not see anything at all.

I felt the most awful trapped torment inside my soul that I would never want to go back.

It is just torture, not from anyone doing anything, just a sensation that stays with you for as long as it does. It spirals up and down inside you. There is no escape just torment. The sensation becomes physically painful. A constant spiral trapped feeling... and it is so intense, there is nothing to make it go away.

Thank GOD I did not feel it for too long!

I don't think a pic can adequately portray the feeling of hell. That is all I can say, that pic, although dimmed and rather ASTRAL does not equate at all to the feeling of which I got to experience.

cheers

I too have witnessed my own hell.

I tried U2U'ing you, but i do not have enough points since i am new. Do you mind U2Uing your story to me? I want to know if anyone has experienced what i went through.

Yes, absolutely yes! We are instructed to seek His word allowing His Spirit to bring clarity to our understanding.

We now have Ancient Aramaic texts available to us in English translation (along with others) that we can peruse online to our hearts content!

I was thrilled to find them online and tell my friends about them when I can.

Just do a google search on "Aramaic texts" and just see what you come up with. K?

...btw, Vic Alexander has a website that you can find by typing in his name plus the dot com thingy. He is fluent in old Aramaic yet English is his first language.

There is also Dr. Llhamsa's website if you're inclined to compare the translations between the two men. There are other translators of Aramaic but these two men come to mind.

Peace and blessings to you.

well, Hell doesnt look so bad.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

what would be the use of eternal punishment? Yes there is sin and evil in the world but God created man for happiness. He just wants you to choose him over the world.

God is all things. There is nothing outside of God. God does not have eternal punishment within God. To use your free will to reject our Creator (God) will only lead you to being "cast out". Outside of God nothing exists.

As a believer in God, though not necessarily a Christian. I find it hard to believe that a "God" or higher being capable and far more advanced then us, would be inclined to have an eternal place of torment. That is truly unfair, and if I found out that there was truly a place such as this, I would fight tooth and nail against it. That being said, to have such a place exist is against IMO what God is, and wants, that is love. Why would God create, and allow to exist a place of strife and torment? That is not a loving God, that is not a dutiful God. I agree with what was said before, it was created by the early church to keep followers. The First Protestant bibles BTW was not written by Luther, check Tindell. He translated the original Greek and hebrew bibles of the time, I believe it was in the 1300's, which for me would be more believable then the KJV which was written by theoligens that during there time were trying to get an accord between true "Bible thumpers" eventually to be called puritans, and the episcopalians which were more inclined to stay with the doctrine, and worship that the catholic church had. Additionally, Martin Luther didn't actually write a bible, or translate it for that matter. He was a theoligan that believed that the way the catholic church was worshiping was wrong, he nailed his beliefs to the door of the church in Germany. The only reason why people know more about him, then others was because the political leadership that luther dwelt were more lenient, and less tied to the church.


Another proof of the effifacies of the early catholic church that shows its corruption during the first 1500 years of its existance is evidenced by there prosecution of the Waldensees which were true followers of the bible seeking to immitate Christ in walk, and dress. They themselves were persecuted and tortured into oblivion in the 1100's A.D. I believe. check them out, you'll find that they were very opposite of the church of the time and there beliefs.

Anyway, my belief is that there is a God, after that I am too lazy to learn the original greek and hebrew texts, and to try and teach from anything else would be like learning how to build a boat from a comic book. While you may get the concept of how to build a boat, the devil is always in the details.

Cheers,

Camain

I always believed that Hell is not a fiery pit like most people picture.
I think hell is the worst emotion a person can have, for the rest of eternity, regret.
Regret that they did not make it into heaven, regret for the way the lived, just simply, regret that they can never be with the creator...
But I also think Hell is reserved for only a few people... A loving god does not want to see a child of his creation in Hell, therefore, I believe there are A LOT more people in heaven that people think...
that is, if you believe in that stuff...

but thanks for the info OP!
its a good thread.
I too have been to Israel, I go every summer to visit my father, and I have never checked out the gates of hell, perhaps I'll have a look this year

I've always felt that way. Controlling by concepts means that you don't actually have to do much to keep the concept going. Feeding fear breeds fear.

Good history lesson. THanx...

In all honesty the fisrt thing that popped into my mind was
you going to post pictures of Hell....... hell michigan that is

To my surprise it was better then I had thought. Thanks for the research
and the picture.

sigh.....you guys are good.

Oh, bigwhammy thanks for the U2U and I believe we're all on the same track here.

Question: are you guys espousing the belief in punishment eternal, either by the "absence of Gods presence", mental-self inflicted torment, etc. ..........as paganism?

Just curious.

I'm not going to get into any heated debate here on open forum because I see this as being detrimental to those who are seeking the Lord.

Seems like the Pagans were on to this idea of using fear of eternal torture. The concept is a pagan one...

Polybius (203-120 BC), the ancient historian, says:

"Since the multitude is ever fickle, full of lawless desires, irrational passions and violence, there is no other way to keep them in order but by the fear and terror of the invisible world; on which account our ancestors seem to me to have acted judiciously, when they contrived to bring into the popular belief these notions of the gods, and of the infernal regions." (taken from "The Origin and History of the Doctrine of Endless Punishment" by Thomas Thayer.
B. vi 56.)

Aristotle said,
"It has been handed down in mythical form from earliest times
to posterity, that there are gods, and that the divine (Deity) compasses all nature. All beside this has been added, after the mythical style, for the purpose of persuading the multitude, and for the interests of the laws, and the advantage of the state."Neander's Church Hist., I, p. 7. 11



As a Christian (and a human being) don't you think it is sick to take pleasure in the suffering of others? I wonder do Christians posting here take pleasure in the idea that unsaved people will be tortured? I hope not. However some of the church Fathers did take great joy in it:

From www.tentmaker.org

Quotes from Christian Perpetuators of the Mythology of Hell:

The following quotes are from Christian leaders who used the pagan concept of Hell
to keep the poor masses in subjection to power-hungry and often very evil political
and religious men and women. The Church has often been a more effective means
of enslaving the masses than military might. There are hundreds of thousands of other
Church leaders throughout the centuries who could be quoted expressing similar thoughts
to the ones below Compare these words to Jesus' words to the poor of this world and it
should become very obvious from which spirit these men were speaking. Satan has
controlled the Church for a long time. It's time for a great change.

Tertullian

"At that greatest of all spectacles, that last and eternal judgment how shall I admire, how
laugh, how rejoice, how exult, when I behold so many proud monarchs groaning in the
lowest abyss of darkness…"

Jonathan Edwards

"Reprobate infants are vipers of vengeance, which Jehovah will hold over hell, in the
tongs of his wrath, till they turn and spit venom in his face!"

"The view of the misery of the damned will double the ardour of the love and
gratitude of the saints of heaven."

Thomas Aquinas

"That the saints may enjoy their beatitude more thoroughly, and give more
abundant thanks for it to God, a perfect sight of the punishment of the
damned is granted them."

Hey....a yeah or a nay would have been just fine.

Be all you can be there bigwhammy.

Peace