I've only heard this on O'Reilly so far, and am not really going to bother to look further in on it. The Board of Education of South orange NJ or whatever doesn't admit to it but others claim that that was their reasoning behind it. Parents and Teachers, say that the Principal of the school told the teacher they couldn't go on a feild trip to see Charles Dicken's A Christmas Carrol because it was religious or such.

I just have a comment about this. Thanksgiving, Christmas, it is all being destroyed, because of Political Correctness, regaurdless of the above situation it has happend else where. This is outrageous, because it is these small few hollidays, that revolve around a deity, that gave us such unity, as a nation. Soon so little national Identity will remain, that mexico would look more patriotic than the US.

Sincerely,
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it's not the nations job or even right for them to press religion on people, any kind of religion, the only way i can see it being ok is if ALL religion is encouraged and shown, but that's not the case and never will be, i agree with their decision, national identity is not religious identity

thanxgiving is not being destroyed, is not religious at all, where did that come from?

Thanksgiving is religious how can you deny it?

It is where we gather before god to eat his bounty, and celebrate the "providence" of god. There's a post around here, "George Washington on Thanks Giving" that has the speech that George Washington gave when "inventing" thanksgiving as a holiday.

It is profoundly religious, it is just not biased to a denomination. It can be Christian, protestant, catholic. I don't know about Muslims, their views may differe, but it can be that too.

But it can't be atheist, that's for certain, other-wise it is just a big gathering to eat more and fancier than you normally do.

Find that post, and read what George Washington had to say about Thanksgiving.

And while it is not the job of the Nation to encourage one religion over another, it IS the job of the nation to encourage religion. This nation is not meant to be irreligious, the founding fathers had no clue of what it was to be without belief and humility. An irreligious nation, is like the Soviet Union. You answer to your human masters, and no one else, for religion conflicts with governmental control.

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by FreeMason:

"And while it is not the job of the Nation to encourage one religion over another, it IS the job of the nation to encourage religion."

i entirely disagree. 'freedom of religion' includes being free of it.

- qo.

What laws dictate that the governments has to encourage religion to begin with? There are none. That being that, they also can't 'force' religion on those of us who don't want it. So, what they are doing is A-Ok. There not doing anything wrong. Heck...I'll bet they'd allow the field trip if enough kids petitioned for it.... But they can't and shouldn't force any religion on anyone child. Especially not without parental consent!

We have Freedom of Religion, and as QO pointed out, also includes being Free of Religion. And I agree with JG with the notion that any religion should not be forced upon anyone.

From my understanding when children go on a "field trip" they have to get consent forms signed by parents because they will be leaving school property..So if this is the case, the parents that don't have a problem with their kids seeing this play would sign it, and those that don't won't.

The problem I have with this current scenario is, that it wasn't left to the parents, it was left to the Board, or to the principal as FM wrote, to dictate what is "too religious."

If someone could refresh my memory is Christmas Carrol the one about Scrooge, being visited by X-Mas ghost past,present, and future..and seeing how his life was, how it is, and what would happen if he didn't change his ways, would end up?

Thanksgiving isn't religous. It was the day the european pilgrams held a feast with the indians in thanks to them helping and to show they had succeeded. Not religous. Where did you get that from?

And christmas carol isn't that religous, but hey, freedom of religon. And seperation of state and religon. All religon. Schools funded by state, shouldn't enfore religon on anyone.

No James the Lesser that's the first thanksigiving, but that is not what it means now, as was decreed by the men who made it our holiday. I have only seen thanksgivings with prayers at the beginning of every meal, and no one in my family is religious. It is because thanksgiving is not celebrating the corn the indians gave to the pilgrims, but god's gift of the harvest.

We have Freedom of Religion, and as QO pointed out, also includes being Free of Religion

That is a dangerous freedom and should not be excersized.

But yes on topic, the government should not deem whether you are free from religion, or not, the parents should have been made to sign an agreement saying that their children could view the christmas carrol, and that they agreed it may have religious implications or some crap. Not the facist and evil political correctness that is infesting our country.

What laws dictate that the governments has to encourage religion to begin with?

It is called precidence James.....something this nation has taken very seriously, even down to the 2 term limits of the president, until the bastard demi-god roosevelt had to ruin it.

But they can't and shouldn't force any religion on anyone child.

It's not about forcing religion, but about not depraving you of it. This country is getting to the point where until you are 18 you have to litterally pray underground.

In conclusion it is a shame so many Americans today feel that it is a freedom to be free of religion. It is enslavement to your fellow man. The founding fathers knew this, they'd be disgusted with most everything that is going on today.

Sincerely,
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Originally posted by quiet one
Originally posted by FreeMason:

"And while it is not the job of the Nation to encourage one religion over another, it IS the job of the nation to encourage religion."

i entirely disagree. 'freedom of religion' includes being free of it.

- qo.

You have the right to put your tree up, get gifts and enjoy the days off all you want, and on top of that, you feel that it is your right to ensure that Christians aren't to dare mention the reason for the holiday.

Freedom of religion doesn't mean that you have the right or reasonable expectation to have the world sanitized of the Judeo-Christian religion this nation was based upon.

The very fact that people believe that the nation's constitution wasn't fully understood until 1963 is indicative of the ignorance of the society as a whole.

The fact that some people have kittens if the word Christ dare be mentioned proves that they are quite tolerant to anything except the Christianity.

Well then, to stop the persicution of christianity in the schools, take out all those jew candle things, what ever mauslim have, and so forth. Oh wait, they can't be taken out, they were never allowed. TC, christianity is rammed down everyones throat. You don't get Hannakuh(sp?) break, you don't get Yule off work, but hey, if it a christian holiday, vacation time! Never hear the Charlie Brown Hannakuh story, it the christmas story. Never hear of the hannakuh sale at Jenny Craig, but christmas sale? Yes. Christmas play, concert, parade, special, all christmas. All something christian being rammed rammed down everyones throat.

Also, the under god, take it out! This nation was built by the kicking the indians off their land and our will to fight, not god. It was built on the europeans running from the home lands and making a new life for them. It was built on people wanting a better life, not god.

And Thanksgiving isn't religous, Jesus never sat down for thanksgiving, europen pilgrams and indians did. If not for their help, pilgrams wouldn't have lived. Nothing religous about being thankful for help. Sure, christians may have turned it into a holiday for them, which I don't mind, day off work, couple days outta Owens, but still, not religous.

Well, don't agree with not being aloud to see the classic Christmas Carrol, but hey, religon is to be seperate from state, school funded by state. Either religons start paying taxes to get a voice, or start buying up schools.

James the lesser, your ignorance about Thanksgiving only gives strength to why you believe that Christians and muslims should put up with jews and their haunaka, and why jews should put up with christmas.

The fact is America is NO different than rome, and if we don't realize that it'll be the death of us all. The similarity is that Rome did not care what religion you believed, as long as you believed in the Roman Gods.

We are the same, we don't care what you believe, as long as you recognize the overtly dominant Protestant traditions imbred into our nation.

Sincerely,
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I'm not going to argue with you, James. You want to know the truth, whether you like it or not, research. As a matter of fact, I've posted tons of information on this very topic (America and religion), so you'll have to go no farther than this site.

While I'm no huge fan of Christmas as it is not Biblical but a dillution of Christianity with paganism (mainly the worship of Ba'al), the continuous attack of Christianity by those with a lack of understanding of what the founders had in mind with the first amendment is what iritates me. Even though I am a Christian, I would have just as much a problem if ignorance attacked Islam if this nation was founded on that belief because of the same reason I am now - historical accuracy in regards to the nation.

If the majority were to just say "We want Christmas deleted" I'd say "Whatever", but don't try and twist the Constitution to back up your desires.

I agree with James

why is it nessacery to insult in debates like this? why does everyone resort to blatant insults that have nothing to do with the debate whenever they get tired of arguing or feel they are being defeated

This is all part of satans plan to demolish god from society and
every trace of him.

i will not even get into any other arguments of this topic.

Kking, is right, no personal attacks are called for.

To sum it up.

Christmas is a great celebration of christ the lord and is a peacful
fun loving holiday.

Those who say they are offended by certain stuff are liar.

why?

because they should ignore stuff that they do not belieeve and let those who do take part in what
they are doing without causing trouble.

if i were christian in an all muslim country and saw a mohhamed statue up would
i complain to government??

NO.

why?

because i would go about in private worshipping my lord withou causing distinction and trouble which
is satans ultimate gaol.

cause distinction and trouble.

peace.

The "roots" of a winter "Christmas-styled" celebration go back to a time long before Christianity. In reality the roots of Christmas date back 4000 years to Mesopotamia, as a religious festival on the shortest day of the year. The celebrations were of thanks to the God of Marduk, who renewed the world for another year at that date, the winter solstice.

This religious Babylonian festival was adopted by the Greeks and later Romans who called it Saturnalia. It was celebrated with an exchange of presents, decorations of green wreaths, lighted candles and bonfires werelit in high places to help the sun revive for another year.

Solstice became more important under the rule of Emperor Aurelian as the Birthday of the unconquered Sun (a Persian religion, Mithraism, whose god Mithras had become very popular throughout the Mediterranean). Emperor Aurelian proclaimed Mithraism as the official state religion of the Roman Empire.Ý

The early Christians were not interested in celebrating Jesus' birthday. But by the fourth century that changed and they had become very interested as well as in the Virgin Mary whose status was greatly elevated within the church. There would never have been a Christmas without this increase of importance of Mary.

The church was faced with competition from the winter religious solstice festivals like decided not to celebrate Christmas, for competitive reason, sagainst the other religions of the time. The Christians were not interested in accuracy (that is the realm of science), but the conversion of souls. The majority of the Romas were accustomed to celebrating at that time of the year some god whether it is called by its Mesopotamianname of Marduk or its Greek Zeus, Roman Saturn or the Persian Mithras.

FM, why should a jew recognize it? They jewish, not protestant. Second, I never said jews should put up with christmas while christians should put up with hanakuh. Just saying you get everything christian rammed down our throats. Holidays, sales, specials, parades, time off work/school, only get it if national or chistian holiday. Never saw a Ostara sale, but easter? Every year, even though christians stole easter from witches with every other day important to them.

Is it a coincidence that Jesus was born on Yule?(well, two days off) and resurected two days after Ostara? And that their halloween is same day as Sowiehn(sp?). Gee, all christian holidays seem to be coincidently same or close to pagan. And yes, halloween christian you ignorants(as TC likes to say). It is stolen from witches and used for their use. Back then it was used for if you don't celebrate their festival, you can join ours. It like saints day or something, someone here will know. But still, all these important christian days were either stolen or by some great coincidence are on or close to witches holidays.

Thanksgiving was turned into a christian holiday. Wasn't at first. There, is that simple enough for you to understand? I tried, but obviously with to many words.

Also, Thomas, constitution isn't twisted when people want seperation of state and religon. It being upheld. Ok, you understand? I am not twisting it to support me. For it has seperation of state and religon, and that is what I support, so I am right. Can't have religon in schools, for schools get money from state. Seperation of state and religon. So unless religons start paying taxes to get a voice or start buying schools or start making more schools, for some schools are religous based, but they private, not funded by state.

And truth, once again, HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! You funny, you a comedian?

Dear Lord, the goverment should not be involed like that in relgion. This country was founded on Catholic ideals and it stay like that. This is just like removing God from the Pledge of Alliance. This is nuts. Like FM said Chirstmas and Thanksgiving is being destroyed by nuts.

[Edited on 12-18-2002 by JediMaster]

Why not JM? Not everyone believes in god. Besides, not everyone was catholic.

Hey, here a point. When I say christians gave indians small pox blankets and forced them off and that they held slaves, people like TC come on and say not all slaves and indians were held/killed by christians. But who made the country? Only christians, no one else, no other religons. So, what is it? All christian or no christian? Besides, never heard of jew expiditions in this country, but plenty of christians.

But still, it doesn't matter. A few words, only someone really anal(the term, not the body part) would get offended.

And TC, if you in a mauslim country, you better be wearing a towel and all that, they gonna kill you. Know why? They ruled by religon.

Well, James I see we are going to get into another fight on religion. The men who founded America meaning the British, and the colonies were Catholic therefore God shall stay. Most people belive in a God. Muslims, Jews, Hindus. Everyone and just because the atheists don't want it in, does not make a differnce.