Where in the bible does it say that women cant be ministers?

Originally posted by jedimiller
...they are too passionate and take things to heart. this does not make them appropiate to be pastors. because they would focus on personal beliefs and less on the bible...Sorry girls. I love you!

You mean, kinda like:

Mathhew 15:9
"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

or

Mark 7:7
"Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Interesting.

Originally posted by Yknot
The Black family of America during Slavery AND since the late 70's.
(Bill Cosby notwithstanding)

Which you're saying is matriarchal in nature? Is this the reasons for broken homes? How is matriarchy related to lack of a functional urban education system? Drugs? Alcohol? Poverty? How is the African-American population different to the impoverished Italian, Polish, and/or Irish populations in the early 1900's when they were given their fresh start? Please explain, you said you have proof, not opinion and speculation.

Originally posted by Phenomium
Did you read the passage just before that? Or did you tweak the passage to mirror your argument....I believe if you go just one passage back to Matthew 19:25 you'll see that they are discussing who can be saved or not, it has nothing to do with women or men teaching the word of God.

The passage before speaks of a rich man going to heaven, to which Jesus says nothing is impossible with God (not that rich men can't get to heaven, rather that nothing is impossible with God). Not sure how this passage can be misconstrued.

Originally posted by Phenomium
Furthermore, when you highlighted the words "I suffer not" a woman to teach.......that is not a crutch to your defense either, in biblical tongue of that day it meant that someone does not have to suffer because of something happening. So to say I suffer not...is to say that I don't suffer......because this is not happening. Hence, I suffer not a woman to teach = I don't suffer, if she don't teach.

Tomayto, Tomahto. Same same. After reading this I'm more confident that the Bible was translated correctly and without error.

Originally posted by Phenomium
I suspect it was a bit dramatic to insinuate there would actually be suffering while a woman taught but as the guy back there said.....let one teach for 3 hours and I concur....it is suffering. The bible makes it clear that the apostles were "inspired" by the Holy Spirit while penning the Bible. So it is the authority of God by proxy that you question and the words don't seem that unclear to me, even if you tweak them to support your argument, we can still go and look it up and see, as Paul Harvey says "the rest of the story". The bible also says in several places that God protects his word to make sure that it is not tarnished, so don't think that one part of the bible is correct while others have been tainted by man.

Ah, so you're saying Paul had NO disagreements with the other apostles? I'm a big fan of Paul, but you can't have Paul versus the rest of the disciples and both be divinely correct. God lets us try to sort out the small matters. This is why not everything is in the Bible such as what color clothes you should wear today, what order you should put them on, and how to wash them.

Originally posted by Phenomium
There is passage to reference this in the bible, challenge me and I shall respond with your evidence. As for Adam being the culprit who ruined it for all mankind? It is said by God who had it in their heart to deceive and lure and to most likely use her "charms" to entice Adam to join her while she sinned. After all, has this tactic ever really changed or gone away? Every man alive has been ripped off or deceived by a woman using sexual charm to get her way. The authority that is usurped from man is clear. It is ANY authority that puts the man in subjection to the woman in opposition to God's clear messages.

Adam wasn't far off in the garden when Eve had gotten the fruit (most likely not an apple). After he ate it, he blames God for the mistake:

"The man said, "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." - Genesis 3:12

Nice going Adam. Maybe God made him work to help him grow a backbone? At least Eve admitted the mistake. The reason why I bring this up is to demonstrate the "who's fault is it" is double. Both of them screwed up. My Bible says both were tossed out, and both were given due punishments. Not the same exact punishments, but fair and just.

Originally posted by Phenomium
A woman in the churches, a woman in the workplace anywhere. After all, this among other punishments such as labor pains in child birth, (subjection)

Ah, but forcing the man to work the land until he dies is not subjection? How odd!

Originally posted by Phenomium
is one of womans punishments for luring Adam to partake of this "forbidden fruit", You have to ask yourself this question? WHY WOULD SATAN SKIP ADAM AND GO TO EVE TO MAKE SURE GOD WAS BETRAYED? I will let the following forum entries answer that one.

Satan will use whomever suits his purpose until success is achieved...even Job.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

Why stick to the rhetoric of a book compiled 1800 to 2000 years ago? Why not update your practices to represent a more enlightened view of women? What practical reasons are there for not ordaning women?

reply to post by Naboo the Enigma


I agree 100%

I do believe in traditions...but none of the traditions that my family practices says that you cannot do something because of you gender.

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
Why stick to the rhetoric of a book compiled 1800 to 2000 years ago? Why not update your practices to represent a more enlightened view of women? What practical reasons are there for not ordaning women?

How about this one: 85%-90% of all convicted prisoners in the United States comes from SINGLE MOTHER HOUSEHOLDS. If women (as a group) cannot teach their own child to not get in trouble, how much less can she teach on objective moral lessons?

Put another way: Women, again as a group, cannot teach their children to obey the laws of man, which is MUCH easier than obeying the laws of God.

reply to post by sir_chancealot


I don't know where you got that statistic from, but if it is correct do you not think that maybe it is the absence of a functional relationship which is the problem rather than some sort of malign influence on the part of the mother? The statistic is also skewed by bias on the part of the legal system toward ensuring that children remain with the mother and men being more likely to leave home than women thus making the majority of single parent families matriarchal.

To provide any meaning to your statement you need to compare percentages of patriarchal single parent families with the percentage of matriarchal single parent families in society with percentages of the prison population raised by a single mother or single father respectively. I suspect the proportion of single parent children raised by their father who end up in prison will be very similar to the proportion of single parent children raised by their mother who end up in prison.

e.g. where X% of children raised solely by their father end up in prison and Y% of children raised solely by their mother end up in prison, I suspect the diference between X and Y will be negligible.

Women were ordained as priests and bishops in the Celtic Church,one of the earliest Christian Churches. Contemporary documents attest to this fact. It was a cause of disagreement between the early Roman and Celtic Churches.

This link will tell you more:www.poconorecord.com.../20070306/HOLIDAYS01/70306006/-1/HOLIDAYS01

I also came across a book which claimed that the Early Eastern Orthodox church solemnised same-sex marriages and that the orders of service still exist having been recently re-discovered in Greek monasteries. I cannot recall the name of the book or author but will post it if I can find it.

I am not trying to be deliberately confrontational here nor to undermine any Christian's Faith. I am just attempting to draw attention to some historical facts

The Celtic Church ,one of the earliest Christian Churches ,ordained women as both priests and bishops. This was a cause of disagreement between the early Catholic and Celtic Churches. Contemporary documents attest to this fact.

This link gives more details:www.poconorecord.com.../20070306/HOLIDAYS01/70306006/-1/HOLIDAYS01

I also came across a book that stated that the Early Orthodox Church solemnised same-sex marriages, and that the orders of service still exist ,having been rediscovered in Greek Monasteries.If I can find details of book or author I will post them.

I am not trying to be deliberately provocative or to undermine any Christian's faith here. I am just trying to draw attention to some historical facts

If the above link doesn't take you straight to the article, type "Celtic Church" into the box marked "search" and click on the article "What was Celtic society like for women?"

Originally posted by TheHypnoToad
Maybe one day I'll learn what my place is. Until then, I will continue going off to work. I'll continue making more money than my husband (who is perfectly okay with it), at the job that I got because my grades were so good (in fact, in a class of around 160, only five people were ranked higher than me, two of which were men). I write laws. I do a lot of work that affects a few hundred thousand people every day. I'm good at it.

I rest my case...

reply to post by sir_chancealot


Look what kind of jackass remark is that?!?! Don't blame the freaking women for doing the best that they can...when some sorry ass male(I cant call him a man or a dad) leaves and doesnt fufill his responsibilities so now the Mom has to work several jobs and doesnt have the time to properly raise a child...WOw, you really have some growing up to do to believe that. Talk to some single mothers...hell I know several single fathers and they have problem children too...

Gender doesnt really play a role in the single parent issue and more importantly that comment really doesn't add anything to our discussion

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
How about this one: 85%-90% of all convicted prisoners in the United States comes from SINGLE MOTHER HOUSEHOLDS. If women (as a group) cannot teach their own child to not get in trouble, how much less can she teach on objective moral lessons?

WOW! Look of the slew of assumptions and hyper-generalizations here! How many convicted prisoners ARE single mothers? Ah yes, but we don't believe in personal responsibility and adulthood right? How many MEN are in that 85%-90% statistic? Maybe it was because daddy wasn't there as a role-model? Maybe their mommy was trying to balance work, putting food on the table, keep the house clean, shop for groceries, pack lunches, doing laundry, etc. all at the same time while daddy was off trying to get his kicks?

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Put another way: Women, again as a group, cannot teach their children to obey the laws of man, which is MUCH easier than obeying the laws of God.

What's the percentage of single working fathers have been able to do so? If your statement is true, why don't judges give custody to the father in all cases? Why is it so few fathers ever win the right to raise their child?

[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by Naboo the Enigma
... e.g. where X% of children raised solely by their father end up in prison and Y% of children raised solely by their mother end up in prison, I suspect the diference between X and Y will be negligible.

2% of people in prison were raised by single fathers.

Originally posted by saint4God
...Maybe it was because daddy wasn't there as a role-model? Maybe their mommy was trying to balance work, putting food on the table, keep the house clean, shop for groceries, pack lunches, doing laundry, etc. all at the same time while daddy was off trying to get his kicks? ...

Maybe MOMMY should learn (and teach to her daughters) not to breed with thugs, bad boys, and males who won't stick around to raise children.

Oh, but let's not hold women accountable for their actions! Why, women should have ALL the rights as "equal" citizens, but NONE of the responsibilities.

Check this link for info on same-sex marriages in the early church:en.wikipedia.org...

It seems,however, that different scholars have their own take on exactly what the rite of Adelphopoesis was.

I don't want to hi-jack this thread away from its original subject.

The general point I am trying to make is that the attitude of the early church seems to have been more liberal and in tune with contemporary attitudes than say the church of the nineteenth century.

As the early church was closer to the time of Christ than our own it is probable that they thought they were following His teachings, and that their attitudes reflected Hisown.

Originally posted by sir_chancealot

2% of people in prison were raised by single fathers.

And what percentage of the total population of single father families does that represent? The figure still does not suggest that you are more or less likely to become a criminal if you are raised by a single mother, it is simply a result of most single parent families being matriarchal.

reply to post by Leprekahn


leprekahn? is it safe to guess you either mispelled leprechaun for your name, some one else already had that name, or your of one of the ten tribes of Israel?

In your post you quoted 1 Corinthians 14:34. Specifically, "just as the Law also says." If we all followed the Law there wouldn't be such questions. Women may teach other women and children until the age of 3. At the age of 3 a separation begins to show (in general) that distinguishes the boys from the girls requiring that the boys and girls be physically separated for learning. To be in unity with Yahweh's Laws this must be done.

Then the men teachers will school the boys of 3 and up. The School of the Prophets. www.yahweh.com

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
2% of people in prison were raised by single fathers.

Sources please. Also include the number of single fathers versus the number of single mothers. Leave no data out. In order to have an educated review, we must see all factors. How many fall in the African-American demographic, household income, etc. Also please address my other questions as they are just as relevant to the discussion.

[edit on 14-2-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by hlesterjerome


Interesting indeed. There are 613/10 commandments of Yahweh. The commandments of men then would be just the opposite of those Laws.

Deu 11:26 Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
Deu 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
Deu 11:28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

www.yahweh.com