Lucifer Always allowed back into Heaven?

reply to post by devareous


D) i accept your view,but it makes me want to ask what is evil?
J) Evil can be thought of as corruption of something that is very complex and needs to function just right.
Disfunctionality would be the result of the corruption of sin.

D) what is dualality?
J) Having equal amounts of two opposite traits, in one intity.

D) is evil nothing more thn a teacher to show us what is the way by juxtposition?
J) There is no good purpose of evil.
You have enough evil inside you that you do not have to look to some absolute evil to see the difference from good.
In fact, do not look that hard at your bad aspects but focus on your goal.

D) If there was nothingness void before the godhead created everything,then isnt everything incompassed in the vestage of god,the universe his body,the planets,and us its cells,more or less?
J) I doubt that there is or ever was a void.
Of course there is no way to go back before time existed, to find out.
I have to think that there was always a lack of void.
God does not have to have objects or celestial bodies to be part of him.
Just as time and space and filling of space, has always existed, I see no reason to think that God does not have a physical body that gives all that a reason to exist.
I do not think it is an indication of personal sophistication to say, “Oh, I do not think there is a man with a white beard sitting on a cloud, up there.”
I find that attitude to be a result of not understanding the nature of the universe.

D) Is not the directive of the creator force life,spead life,adore life,and love?
J) I do not think “directive” is the right word.
If you mean God, I would not diminish him to the status of a force.
You can say God has a purpose to His creating the things that make use of the universe that He exists in.
God being the creator implies or would lead you to the conclusion that He is creative by nature.
So God’s purpose would be to apply his creativity to filling this space that is available to work in.

D) Dose this not make the whole that is godhead greater through the positivity of its individual cells?
J) You can say that, perhaps more accurately by saying, “All of creation exists in a harmonious state if all of its individual parts are operating in a positive manner.”
The inverse of this concept is also true.
A negatively operating individual part brings all of creation into disharmony and negatively affects the whole.
God's greatness is not dependent on the actions of individuals.
God does want for individuals to acknowedge His greatness.

D) And i still belive with the blessing,and understanding of the godforce through it you can be a light being.
J) I think if you ran across an inter-dimensional being in the right circumstance, you may perceive it as a light-being.
Far be it from me to deny you of this ambition but that fulfilment will have to await for various transformations that will require a power outside yourself to accomplish.
Do not fall into the trap of going into the dark side for a shortcut.

D) Isnt reincarnation nothing more then another day at school,to finnish the lessons you didnt learn the day befor?
J) I think death is a temporary aberration in the universe, so it was not built into the plan of the universe for there to be a contingency for it.
If you never died, you would have no reason for having a system of reincarnating.

D) but each individual should come to terms with there godhea din there own way,all roads lead to rome.
J) Not everyone has the same opportunities available, so each person has to make use of what they have.
Not every road will take you where you need to go.
This is what I was trying to point out in my last post.
It is your responsibility to do due diligence regarding you ultimate status, meaning alive or dead.

D) dualaility is the enemy to oness,and this is the proverbal evil,Dualality.
J) People can look at the world and see good and bad and go on to conclude that this must just be the way things are meant to be.
If not, why does it keep going and why did it not end, long before I was able to even be born.
I do not see that as being the best way to base your entire belief system on.
It is just observation and acceptance of how things seem to be.


[edit on 6-8-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

There is no good purpose of evil.

Proverbs 16:4

The LORD hath made all things for himself:yea,even the wicked for the day of evil.

Not necessarily a good thing,but can it be all bad if God has a purpose for it?

the way i understand it is, since satan is the God of this world he has to present himself to the Lord in heaven as ruler of this world, much like a congressman has to go to washington to represent. In the beginning we know God gave all authority to Adam, he was basically the God of this world, not the literal God but a ruler given the authority from God to oversee his creation. Satan stole that authority and took adams place. thats why we see in Job satan came to present himself before the lord. I believe the other sons of God that came were other rulers God had placed elsewhere, where they rule we don't know it does not say.


Keeper

reply to post by TheDuckster


hello there

you are assuming a linear timeline

david

i wont begin to say i am any smarter than anyone else but the thing that caught my eye was that it said he was on earth and traveling back and forth "in" it. I see this as post fall for Satan. I believe that this supports the idea of him being cast out before this account and the moving back and forth in it refers to a state of wandering. he wasnt moving back and forth from heaven and earth just moving around in it. In this idea he would have been inited just to show him that he wasnt God and that no matter how much power he thinks he has or wants to have God's glory is non-corruptible and a man walking in absolute faith could stand against sin. Now I could very well be way off base and this is just my opinion but i sincerely hope it helped.

I think there is a difference between Lucifer and Satan.

Satan is described as the advisory, active in such a role even before the time that man was created, as part of this role Satan has had regular discourse with the Divine, as it is essentially the Satans role to question the plans of God, so that God may make decisions.

Lucifer was an Archangel, who fell, people say because he questioned god regarding the treatment of man (adam, eve, lilith), leading to a war in heaven and expulsion from said celestial body.

As far as I'm aware Angels supposedly do not have free will, therefore if Lucifer fell it would have been because it was part of The Plan(tm), I don't think hes allowed access to heaven now, because his role is effectively to act as Satan's right hand man on earth, along with the other angelic beings who make up "The Fallen". I cant find a concept of a physical hell before Christianity (though of course there are the pagan underworlds), I would be more inclined to believe that hell is earth in its current state, and that it was effectively lucifers job to push humanity until they say, no enough is enough, we want the helm of God and his Angels and we are ready to bring heaven to earth. At which time his job will be done and he will return to his place in the heavens.

After all hes just doing his job.

you guys are missing the part in genesis that states that dark ness fell across the land. Duh hint maybe that was talking about the fall of lucifer. Also on top of that the fallen angels mated with humans that was the cause of the flood which happened before the book of job. And think about what leviathan might have been in the last chapter of job. Question will be answered when it is your time to know. If you don't understand than it is not time for you yet to.

reply to post by TheDuckster


GOd kicked him and 1/3 of the angels out. He can come before GOd and bring accusation against us and things like that, but he will never reside there. he has no claim to Heaven. the lake of fire will be his eternal home. He can come before GOd becuase GOd allows it, but he cannot freely roam about Heaven.

This may be a minor point, but it's something that occurred to me...

the quoted passage reads "6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."

This does not seem to count Satan among the Angels. If this was before the fall of Satan, the coming of "the angels" would imply his presence without the need for noting it.

I always liked the book of Job, for the sheer fact that it reveals a more complex dynamic between Creator and Adversary than the more Manichean black-and-white theology espoused in much of the rest of the Bible.

Originally posted by The Parallelogram
This may be a minor point, but it's something that occurred to me...

the quoted passage reads "6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."

This does not seem to count Satan among the Angels. If this was before the fall of Satan, the coming of "the angels" would imply his presence without the need for noting it.

I always liked the book of Job, for the sheer fact that it reveals a more complex dynamic between Creator and Adversary than the more Manichean black-and-white theology espoused in much of the rest of the Bible.

I wonder which edition/translation of the bible that verse is taken from.

Several other editions say: 6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.

Another translation says: 6 One day the members of the heavenly court came to present themselves before the Lord, and the Accuser, Satan, came with them.

Then, I came to wonder what the Jewish translation said and it says: Now it fell upon a day, that the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. www.mechon-mamre.org...

The book of Job is quite an interesting study. I have read somewhere that Job means instruction. Gives a different slant to the reading of the book, I think.

Starts out with the man "fearing". Then, what he feared came upon him. At the end, he sees/understands and all was restored to him.

reply to post by gYvMessanger

Lucifer was an Archangel, who fell, people say because he questioned god regarding the treatment of man (adam, eve, lilith), leading to a war in heaven and expulsion from said celestial body.

No, Lucifer "fell" because of these 7 words: "I will be like the most high."

It's in Isaiah. He wanted to be worshiped.

When God created man and woman, he created them as the most advanced of animals-but they were still animals. They could not appreciate the beauty of the cosmos or the wonders therein. When a collection of seraphim, cherubim and thrones questioned the Creator about this, God said to be patient. It was not until later that Lucifer could remain silent no longer. With a third of the heavenly host, he fell in order to enlighten the Allmother and Allfather.

It is questioned among apocryphal theologians whether this theory on Lucifer and the fall of the Unholy Host was intentional on the Creator's part or if Lucifer did infact act of his own free will.

I think it's also important to remember that when we're talking about these "Elohim" and "Celestials" that we remember that they're metaphors for the human condition-and that the bible, being incredibly old and translated countless of times, is no more reliable than a Dean Koontz novel.

I think that in the garden of eden lucifer was the good guy and god was the bad guy who didnt want us to have knowledge and to follow him blindly (Im talking about the old testement god here) he wasnt perfect and didnt want man to see his imperfections in the world and universe to accept his rules and laws, he was a tyrant and an opressor of free thought but lucifer ( the true god which dwells out side this reality) gave us the knowledge to think for our selves to question to gods work and for this the petty minded old testement god was angry he was and is a meglomaniac who kneeds our adoration and our complete obidience (a bit like kim jong il in nth korea ) so Lucifer ( who is not evil) gave us the the knowledge to question god and to be like god and so we were kicked out of a false paradise into the real world so to sum it all up Lucifer = Jesus

Originally posted by NOTurTypical


No, Lucifer "fell" because of these 7 words: "I will be like the most high."

It's in Isaiah. He wanted to be worshiped.

Problem is, the "Lucifer" in Isaiah is not refering to a spiritual entity, but to the human king of Babylon, Tigleth-Pilaser.

In one of the Gospels (Matthew, I think), Jesus said "I beheld Satan fall like lightning from heaven", which is a verse used to try to "prove" that Satan was some sort of fallen angel or something.

Personally, I think most of it's nonsense, anyway.

Originally posted by Lucifersjester
I think that in the garden of eden lucifer was the good guy and god was the bad guy who didnt want us to have knowledge and to follow him blindly

Technically, there is no mention in the book of Genesis of either Satan or Lucifer being in the garden of Eden. All it says is a "serpent".

Now even though talking snakes are somewhat rare nowadays, I think later theologians tried to twist the Hebrew creation myth and make it say something it didn't originally say.

There was a fascinating thread on ATS not that long ago supposing the theory that the Tunguska event was caused when Satan was hurled from the Heavens to the earth (1908 I think). Then shortly thereafter World War I ensued against the Jews.

When trying to do timelines remember Heaven does not have to follow the same rules of time as we have on earth. God could pluck Enoch off the face of the planet 6000 years ago, give him a mission briefing, and immediately drop him on earth in the year 2012 to be one of the Two Witnesses. To Enoch it may feel like only a few moments but to earth it was thousands of years. Satan got hurled from Heaven and landed in 1908! Who knows. I have no proof or links or facts just proposing alternate ideas.

Originally posted by TheDuckster
This has been plaguing me forever.

According to the Bible, there was a 'war in heaven', to which one of God's Angel - Michael, cast out Satan and 1/3 of the other rebellious angels.

What puzzles me is the Book of Job.

NIV Version

Job's First Test

6 One day the angels [a] came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan 7 also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?"
Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming through the earth and going back and forth in it."

It is my understanding that Lucifer was (in the beginning) 'God's right hand man', so to speak, and was more than likely 'privy' to high councel.

When he was ousted from heaven, it appears as though he wasn't ousted for good - according to the biblical text provided above.

He shows up one day, along side other angels, to take counsel with God.

God doesn't kick him out again, but rather holds a meeting; including Satan - regarding decision making plans for God's servant Job.

What's going on here folks?

~Ducky~

 

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[edit on 7/18/2008 by kinglizard]

From a Reliable source, as well as my own personal opinions, the story of Lucifer ensues:
In the Kingdom of Heaven, he was the highest of the highest Archangels. His heavenly name actually means Bearer of Light, which, oddly enough, has also been said about Christ.
From this Reliable source, I've been told that Lucifer was cast down from heaven because he would not bow down to Man, God's then most recent creation. It was not only because of his emmense pride of himself (Lucifer), but it mainly because he actually LOVED God so VERY much, and refused to bow down to such an inferior race when asked to do so by God himself. So he was cast out, and apparently took 1/3 of the host of heaven with him.
Now, for my opinion, I didn't get this info straight from my Reliable source, so I can't claim that it's true. Lucifer, or maybe it was some other fallen being, tricked the other Watchers or fallen ones into sexing up the human ladies. Their ladies gave birth to giants, which are the Nephilim from scripture, which went around terrorizing humanity, eating up all their food and such. Goliath was one of the Nephilim, I believe, but as I'm sure you well know, David slew the # out of him.
I asked my Reliable source how exactly it is that angels become human. And he says that any soul or angel or any energy, when put into human form, simply pulls the elements around them together to form a human body. So it's not really some supernatural incarnation at all, but we all must be born just as everyone else is born. Once we are born, we live out our lives and then eventually die... such are the laws of life. Once we are freed from our prison of flesh, we become our true spirit selves, same with heavenly beings of any kind.
Lucifer in particular, I believe, has his own special purpose in the history of this planet. He has his destiny, just like all the other fallen ones, which is to be burnt in hell fire. But until that time comes (which is not far off!) he must live through his incarnations and "help" people along their way. He is the epitome of Temptation, that is his purpose really, to tempt people. I've seen his current physical incarnation (yes, he is alive), and he's very tall at 6'7, has a good local government job, spends freely, loves debauchery and sex, and only really cares about himself. I have a close relationship with him and I've asked him his opinion on the Apocalypse and hell fire. Although he doesn't talk about it much at all, he did say "It's coming... but I have to live out my mortal life first."