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A Penny in the Palm, What Does it Mean?

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posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 05:35 PM
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Ok I get it now. It's more of a prank that members will pull and not something that a new initiate should do of his own accord and shouldn't happen anyway.




posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 05:54 PM
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I belive that the copper in the hand was you're token to give to the ferry man at the river of Stix.. He only takes 1 copper to get on his boat..

I cant give you to much information concerning this.. AS what you say in the OP is very intense. And is only taken in with an open mind..
So Im willing he gave you both you're copper piece to pay the Ferry man, who guards the ferry across the great river when you die..

I will get back to you with some links, and other information.. Most of this I just had a gut feeling about.. He may have been an essence, of a person who studies death closely.. skull and Bones are a death cult who pay their death God in blood of women, and men.. Its called the military.
You very well could have met a demon, who is paying you passage to the dark side.. Id be careful in what you want to know.. YOu may end up with all the answers you want when you die.. You may be given a choice..

[edit on 14-2-2008 by zysin5]



posted on Feb, 14 2008 @ 06:07 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


Ya.

You could look at it like that to.

Or.

You could look at it in a .. realistic view.. and maybe, just maybe.. the guy may not have been a demon after all?



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:23 PM
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I look at everything in this world with an open mind.

Id be happy to read what you have to offer my friend.



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 05:13 PM
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reply to post by PlausibleDeniability
 


This goes back to folklore.. And old knowledge.. There is much I know about this subject. As its always been something I relate with, and seem to crave.. Is this knowledge. Unlike my 32 degree friend here, I happen to belive in many things that might seem unrealistic.. So bear with me, and keep an open mind.

And prehaps demon is a harsh word to use.. So let me use Daimon. They come in many forms, and are knew threwout the universe as different names.




Charon was the ferryman of the dead, an underworld Daimon.. or Spirit, in the service to the king Haides. This Diamon got the shades of the dead from Hermes. In which who was the one who gathered them from the upper world and guided them to the shores of the Akherousian mere.





CHARON (Charôn), a son of Erebos, the aged and dirty ferryman in the lower world, who conveyed in his boat the shades of the dead--though only of those whose bodies were buried--across the rivers of the lower world. (Virg. Aen. vi. 295, &c.; Senec. Herc. fur. 764.) For this service he was paid by each shade with an obolus or danace, which coin was placed in the mouth of every dead body previous to its burial. This notion of Charon seems to be of late origin, for it does not occur in any of the early poets of Greece. (Paus. x. 28. § 1; Juven. iii. 267; Eustath. ad Hom. p. 1666.) Charon was represented in the Lesche of Delphi by Polygnotus.


Charon Link

Now this all is dircetly connected to Greek mythology.. And maybe this guy was just having some fun with you
He knew you would figure it out sooner or later and ask.. Was he a God? In the form of a man.. Realisticly not a chance.. But keep an open mind, ask yourself how he made you feel..
Rarely do you get the chance to meet a Bonesman, and rarely do they ever give you a copper!! I wish that happened to me honestly!

The Ferryman and His Fee: A Study in Ethnology, Archaeology, and Tradition
By L. V. Grinsell
Source Link:

Urban Legends: Copper Pennies, Kennedy Bank Notes & Other Tales
Heres another way of looking at it too...

Now many have supressed this knowledge and turned it into myth and legend.. Its up to the reader to decide.. Im not trying to tell you one solid way of seeing this.. Only another view.. By all means, study what I have laided down to make up your own mind..

I wasnt there, and only going from the information you provided me with.


Carwn, Kharon, Charon Fierce Brightness
(kharôn) are other ways of spelling this name for your own research.

Many Masons love this old time knowledge.. And keep an edge over the rest of us by filling their heads full of this stuff.. I love it, and would be a Mason, if I belived in their ways.. But I dont..

[edit on 15-2-2008 by zysin5]



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 12:25 AM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


Hi zysin5,

That's an interesting idea, but I have a couple of problems with the connections.

1. In the mythology stories, the coins were usually silver, and were placed on the eyes of the dead. In the case of the particular Ferryman you mentioned, the coins were placed in the mouths of the dead. There is no mention of, and I have never heard of a connection between, the hands and the fare to the Underworld in mythology.

2. There is, in the EA degree, a point at which a coin (usually a penny) is placed in the hand of the initiate. The man described in the OP was a Mason, so he certainly would have passed through this ceremony, and would definitely remember it as an important part of the degree.

When faced with two (or more) explanations of a given event or circumstance, I tend to look to Occam's Razor to help decide between the various possibilities.

I'm curious: You said in your post that you would love to be a Mason, except you don't believe in "their ways." Specifically what about our ways do you disagree with? Are you sure that what you take exception to is truly "our way," or is it speculation on your part? Is it possible that the feeling is simply fear of, or wariness toward, the unknown?

[edit on 2/16/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 12:38 PM
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Hello all. For my 2 cents worth, a penny means quite a lot in the York Rite degrees of the Holy Royal Arch. As a form of payment. I think the penny guy may be alluding to those degrees, although I cant figure out why he would do what he did, but if you do a little research on Royal Arch Masonry, it might shed a little light on your experience.

All the best

Dredz



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 03:00 PM
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Originally posted by The Axeman
reply to post by zysin5
 

1. In the mythology stories, the coins were usually silver, and were placed on the eyes of the dead. In the case of the particular Ferryman you mentioned, the coins were placed in the mouths of the dead. There is no mention of, and I have never heard of a connection between, the hands and the fare to the Underworld in mythology.



Thanks Axeman.. Im only trying to provide another thought process here,thus Occam's Razor will not apply with what I am talking about.. I said many times in my post, one must keep an open mind..

I understand very clearly the whole BS test kit.. Ive quoted it many times on here before.

And the silver coins are debatable.. As far as I know Charon would only take payment in copper.. He would not take silver gold bronze, or any other metal other than copper.

Getting into the fundamentals here would totally be off topic and derail this thread.. So I will respectfully skip your other questions..
I just wanted to give my own take on what the OP made me think of right off the bat..

I am no Mason, and understand the underlings are good folk who feel they are doing good for the world, which I will stress THEY ARE!
They help the hungry, and cloth the weak.. But to me they are the power base for nutters at top levels who are everything I go aginst.
So I help the world out in my own ways.. And do not support the power base which you empower..

Heck, I dont mind getting away from the kids and the wife, to go and meet up with my buddies at a lodge.. I understand thats really what its about..
But at another level, theres more to masonry than most masons know..
And I will leave it at that..

ITs true Masons are not a secert group.. But a group with secerts

And IM sure you dont know those high level secerts.. None of you do..


[edit on 16-2-2008 by zysin5]



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 03:42 PM
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Originally posted by zysin5

And IM sure you dont know those high level secerts.. None of you do..


[edit on 16-2-2008 by zysin5]


Do you know of these 'high level' secrets? If so, can you please enlighten us less informed indivduals as to their content?



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 03:49 PM
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That is not part of this discussion folks. Stay on topic please.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


Fair enough. It's just a very large logical jump to make, and one which I would not personally attempt.

My problem is in the context of Masonry, which is the context here due to the nature of the discussion with, and the "status" of, the man in the OP, there is no connection to Charon or whoever he is... in fact there is no mention of paying one's way into the "Underworld" (no mention of the Underworld at all, actually)... so I can't make the connection.

It is interesting to see the various ways in which people look at these things, however... especially considering my perspective.

Best regards.

[edit on 2/16/08 by The Axeman]



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 06:26 PM
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Originally posted by PlausibleDeniability
A question for masons and/or well informed regular joes.

The big thing that stuck out in my mind was that I've seen a lot of guys wearing mason rings but never one with a skull and crossbones. Also, this guy had an extremely intense aura around him, nothing I could see of course, just something I could feel quite strongly. My coworker felt this as well. I didn't feel uncomfortable or anything, it was just an extremely strange sensation thats is really difficult for me to describe.


So I can explain my process of comming to my almost instant conclusion, about Charon and the copper penny.
It stuck out in his mind, and I do know most every day Masons do not have colledge Bonesmen rings.

He was a Mason and a Bonesman. Which only the royal famlies are allowed to be Bonesmen. This is key for me.. I belive this man here was not only just a Mason, but something all together different..
Every powerful man today in our country is a Mason.. But not because that is the root of the evil.. But because being a Mason is a great cover..
You do good, and you are repaided by this honor coat. And knowledge..
You are given even more status and knowledge by being a Bonesman.
So made me think of something on a higher note. A reason behind the question he is searching for.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 07:04 PM
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Originally posted by zysin5
He was a Mason and a Bonesman.


No. He was a Mason who happened to be wearing a ring that had a skull and crossbones on it. That does not make him a "bonesman."


Which only the royal famlies are allowed to be Bonesmen.


Supposition, and incorrect at that.


This is key for me.. I belive this man here was not only just a Mason, but something all together different..


Why? Because he was wearing a ring?


Every powerful man today in our country is a Mason.. But not because that is the root of the evil.. But because being a Mason is a great cover..


Can you name a few "powerful [men]" who are *verifiably* Masons (lodge records, etc.)? I can't think of any.


You do good, and you are repaided by this honor coat. And knowledge..
You are given even more status and knowledge by being a Bonesman.
So made me think of something on a higher note. A reason behind the question he is searching for.


...but he wasn't a Bonesman (so far as we know). Did he go to Yale? We don't know. He would have had to in order to be a Bonesman.

So, your positions have been founded in speculation. Nothing wrong with speculation if there is some reasoning behind it. So far though, the connections you are making are short on substance, and you are extrapolating opinions from facts not in evidence.

I still think the exchange was meant as described above by myself and others, and not in reference to Charon, or anything similar.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


Actually, from what I've read in mythology, it was a silver piece, not copper. Even the link you provided on Charon states it was an "obolus" that was put into the mouth of the deceased. An obolus was a silver coin, not copper.

ancienthistory.about.com...



posted on Feb, 18 2008 @ 10:26 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


I'm curious my friend, to the best of your knowledge, why would this man do this?

I've heard of putting pennies in the eyes when a person dies but never in the hand. Do you think he was threatening me in his own way? He could have been something supernatural, its not an idea I reject at all. I think many of you underestimate the presence this man had (I tried to convey it as best as possible in the OP). I'm not trying to embellish my story, just trying to further describe the whole experience. Again, the feeling we got from this man is something my coworker and I discussed for some time afterwards.

One thing that slipped my memory until now is that at the time I was extremely hostile towards masonry and whatever it was we discussed I can guarantee I did not give off a friendly presence to him. I'm not sure if that changes anything as far as to why he would do what he did.

I actually kept the penny he gave me for quite awhile, wondering what it meant. My coworker immediately rid himself of his. It was a bit too weird for him I guess.



posted on Feb, 19 2008 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by PlausibleDeniability
One thing that slipped my memory until now is that at the time I was extremely hostile towards masonry and whatever it was we discussed I can guarantee I did not give off a friendly presence to him. I'm not sure if that changes anything as far as to why he would do what he did.


Not really. If he got the feel that you were a good guy it wouldn't matter if you were "friendly" to him or not. You were passionate about what you were saying to him, no doubt. Passion can be a good thing, it's just sometimes misdirected.

Perhaps he gave you the penny as a subtle way of telling you that Masonry means no harm? The penny in its usage described above is a symbol for Charity. Maybe he was hopeful that you would make this connection in the future and rethink your hostility toward Masonry.

I don't underestimate the feeling you describe; I've felt it before too, I think. Usually from someone I either respected, or grew to respect greatly.

I don't think I've ever gotten that feeling in a bad sort of way before, like the person was evil or something. But I do recognize that "aura" type feeling you talked about before.

I do think he was trying to tell you something -- or rather give you something to think on. Apparently it worked.



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 12:14 PM
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could this be in any way associated to Jesus and the outstretched hands represent being held by copper nails?

how foolish one would look holding out his palms as such....

that we would die for our God, and they would not??

therefore, they think giving our life for humanity and our God is ridiculous?

Is it a mockery of faith???

diane



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 07:10 AM
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I think the guy was referring to the mark degree when he gave you the coin, our lodge do a mark degree some others do it as part of the Royal arch and i just noticed a post saying they do it as part of the EA degree.

Their is nothing sinister in the fellow doing this and it wouldn't be associated with paying a ferryman the fair across the underworld river which i think was in the film The Clash of the Titans!

I will post a picture of the Marked penny from our lodge and you can tell us if it was similar in design most lodges in Scotland have their own mark penny but i cant speak for the rest of the world.

David



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 09:10 AM
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Interesting story to be sure, having worked in gas stations, liqour stores and other retail environs i have met many a mason in my day. i can spot a masonic, shriner or eastern star ring from 10 paces.

And masons seem to have a love of pennies and a variety of symbolism associated with them.

Sadly i have little to add to this conversation. But i am curious Zysin, were these early greek poets you mention who never touched on the persona of "Charon" pre-homeric? Charon is a servant of the pantheon of Zues, and the Olympic pantheon didnt exsist before "The Odessy" and "The Iliad".

Not to break topic (But i'm gonna), but i believe that Homer was a subscriber to the big bang theory. the lineage of Zues supports this idea.

Chaos =... well Chaos, Chronos = time, Zues = energy

First there was Chaos, but time defeats chaos, and the only thing that is truely timeless... is energy, and it rules all things.

Like all great wisdom of the greeks, homer hide these truths in the allegory of the Olympic gods



posted on Oct, 26 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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reply to post by zysin5
 


I agree on the Copper. Here is why. Most poor were not buried in those days, unless done so by the family. Simply couldn't afford such luxury. To be buried was an Honor, and not to be buried was an Insult. This insult was usually reserved for the poor or those who had done some dishonor.

This would be much like a Viking Warrior not being burned on a Pyre, or more honorably a Floating Pyre. That would be a great honor to be sent off in such a manner, to be struck of that glory would be almost as if a life was completely wasted.

Now, while the Rich had Gold and Silver, even the most poor could scrounge up a Copper in times of need. Charon would not cater to the rich, as he is a man (spirit) that caters to those DESERVING. Poor can still be Deserving, he would not turn one away merely for being poor.

If he would, the Mythology wouldn't work. The majority is always Lower and Middle Class, and those Lower Class would be inflamed at not being allowed to cross the River to the Other Side over monetary reasons. Religion, once man claims it, becomes a tool for control (whether it is intended as such or not. Man corrupts, therefore Religions become corrupted. This is not to say that all Religions are wrong or any such, just that Man has a way of making the most pure things tainted. This is not Religions fault, but the fault of evil and ambitious people.) and such a decree would put the Lesser Masses into an uncontrolled chaos.

Imagine what would happen if any Religion of sufficent followers stated that there god(s) decreed at this moment and forever onwards only those buried (or giving to the church to safe keep before burial) with $10,000 could go to the better After Life.

You can hamstring people in alot of ways before they finally hit the edge. Once they go over that brink you are sure to be toppled. Unless Silver was ALOT more common than I am thinking, Copper would have been the most common piece to part with for a buried loved one to pass over with. Therefore, it seems to me that Copper would be the accepted piece for Charon to take in payment for passage. This way any 'poor soul' could be allowed passage.

Why work and do what you are told in life if you know from the beginning that it will take a fortune (at least in your eyes) to be allowed to Cross Over at the End? In Mythology, as in Religion, Life is the Trial and Death is the Reward. You take away the Reward and you loose the Control.



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