The government lied to us...and they should have

Back to the OP. I think you are trying to distinguish between a "good lie and a "bad" lie. Who decides good and bad in your opinion? Bay of pigs was people (if you assume the CIA are people) conspiring to overthrough a Govt., and was covered up as long as possible. National security? My point is who do those lies protect? The people at large or just the people who are telling the lies? George Bush said it best...Fool me once shame on you Fool......a...a...You can't fool a fool again.

reply to post by BlueRaja

Is it discredited because there have been lies found, or because there's information that can't be answered?

Both, but I have become more curious about unanswered questions as a result of data and supposed facts being proven wrong. Not to mention the fact that a legitimate investigation would have at least asked the questions that have not even been officially considered.

Furthermore, has the notion that terrorists indeed flew planes into the WTC been discredited beyond a reasonable doubt, or are there just certain questions that still remain?

No, I believe that actual planes (not holograms) were flown into the towers. This does not necessarily explain their collapse however. And it certainly does not explain the collapse of WTC7.

See for yourself what the owner of the World Trade Center had to say:

www.youtube.com... st&p=8B621756E1E3071E&index=20

reply to post by BlueRaja

With all else being equal, with 2 "Secret Society" members running, why would it matter which one won the election, if they're just a puppet of a shadow government. How do you throw an election though? Call people up and tell them not to vote?

It wouldn't really matter which one won, that's the whole point. But their plan was to have Bush in office, because it had been promised to him in return for the favors he had already done and was in the interests of maintaining the continuity of the agenda.

Do you really think your vote counts for anything?

The whole election process is an illusion. Just like the two-party system. The people are led to belive that they have a choice. But a choice between two Bonesman is no choice at all. "Don't tase me bro!"

The 911 issue for me boils down to Conspiricy vs. complete incompatance. But having everything done behind closed doors is the real problem.

reply to post by jackinthebox


I don't think I said finding the truth was an insult. I said or meant to say if I wasn't clear, the mockery and freak show people have turned 9-11 into was the insult. It's a parade of absurd ideas that clouds what happened.

As a matter of fact, planes were indeed not shot down from the sky. 9-11 was a whole new kind of attack.

Right, right, this guy or that guy said it could happen. I've heard about the people tried to warn others. I'm sure the did. But one or two people don't make up the CIA and FBI and NSA. Bin laden and his little group of thugs were able to do what they did because the intellegence system wasn't working together like they should.

You may be misunderstanding me. I think they did the right thing with not telling us about Flight 800. I feel it would be wrong if they did so, then pretended it didn't happen.
There is no way the United States would allow that to happen and do nothing about it.

I am making no claim that anyone on this thread here is anything in particular; just to clarify.

Oh, and even disinformants cannot escape the IRS!!! (a joke, as I saw that statement as one as well)



You would have to admit, respectful discussion is rare in anything to do with the possibility our government isn't the most perfectest thing in the world.



I do understand the points being made that some secrecy is required. My point is there is a difference between secrecy and lies.

Keep the black projects secret until you advance past them or you see other countries attain the same level publicly.



But I will remain true to my conviction that lies, for any reason are unjust.


Here is a thought, don't do things to a country if you wouldn't want them to know about it. So, yes, we should be able to tell an 'enemy' everything we did to them ... because an honorable country would not have been involved with dirty deeds in the first place. Johnny stole candy, so I did too! That is not a reasonable argument. You do no make yourself any better, or set the world example (as the U.S. claims to be), by doing everything and more that you tell others they shouldn't do. Lead by example. Show the world we are the best because we don't have debt, because we are happy, because we are not afraid, because we take care of our own so well, that we can then also take care of others. The U.S. has done things in completely the wrong way for far too long. We need to save ourselves from self-destruction. What good is our empire once it is gone? Do we want to live and die like the Romans? Forcing others to follow through threats and war is no way to spread your message.


Remember, we have no true enemies right now ... we may be working on creating them by occupation and manipulations. If I recall correctly, a group of extremists attacked us by all official reports. We declare war on countries. The common sense in that seems cloudy. Extremists are not a representative of a country, ethnicity, or religion. They are ... extremists. Would you call all Germans, nazis? Do you call all Christians, crusaders? Do you consider all white people, KKK members?



I know a lot of people would be considered insurgents in the U.S. if another country occupied us to catch a few rogue people after they ousted a dictator President. I know a lot of people who would not like that occupying country very much after a few years of occupation, even if they initially appreciated having the bum thrown out and tried for their evils.

Oh, but we don't have groups that would fight and cause trouble. No, we do have extremists here. We have cults, Christian extremists (exact same thing as Muslim extremists), KKK, and other violent groups. The are kept in check by our government, and would most likely test how far they could go if we were occupied, and if that occupying country withdrew, they would see if they could take some kind of control of at least a certain amount of territory. It would be no different than it is over in the middle east. Remember, we destroyed their infrastructure, as the same would be done to us.




As far as 'throwing' an election ... it would be intentionally giving arsenal to your opponent to vilify your image or stepping down (throwing in the towel). Also, with electronic voting, it can be thrown while people go to the polls. Who is to say the numbers are not put up that just show an acceptable range of percentages while still keeping the guise of democracy, placing the intended combatant into the final bout. Not saying I believe this, but it surely is possible.



Also, some people consider these countries that we should 'fear' to be third world. Do realize that they have cities, plumbing, transportation, electricity, businesses, television, and pretty much everything that we have. Saying third world is a way to try and lessen the value of their lives and their way of life. It is different, not wrong.


A confusing thing about it is, we claim to be vastly superior in almost every way in attack and defense, but, we should 'fear' people that are so far below our advanced tech? Fear is a tool used by terrorists, you have to question a government that uses fear to control, manipulate their people to accomplish goals. Should our government not teach us to defend ourselves and not be afraid? Should our government not keep our freedoms and liberties as the pride of our nation, to prove that the 'terrorists' didn't win? Instead they fear monger with color codes, threats of future attacks, and take away our rights. Who is the true enemy to the People? No, not the military, they have sworn to uphold the constitution.

Those who take away our freedoms and liberties are the true enemy to the people of a nation.

Where is the true pride of what our country stands for? You can attack us, but we will not flinch or falter. That is the American spirit. People must defend themselves against all adversaries, foreign and domestic, including its own government stealing its freedoms through LIES of protection from a boogey man. They attack our rights by lies, claiming we will be safer ... how our we safe if we cannot defend ourselves from an enemy? If there are no guns, and we are invaded, what do you do but surrender of fight with fists against artillery ... which is more efficient, a million troops spread out thin, or 300 million troops covering the whole territory? The LIE is they provide our safety, the TRUTH is safety comes from the people standing in unison against any and all threats. Fear is your true enemy.


I am not making claims that anyone blew up anything. I am asking for truth. When official reports change, and change again ... but still don't use real world physics, and still cannot answer things honestly ... drawing false conclusions on modified evidence ... then it is not truth. I will accept any TRUTH, no matter what it is. If it is hijackers, then don't have people that are still alive on the list of people who did it. If it collapsed, don't make the core smaller and less significant that it truly was. Don't manipulate things to fit your theory, base your theory on actual evidence. Don't keep videos from the public who want to investigate. Lies, manipulation, and hiding information from investigations does not make things look good.


Simple enough, right? Let me know when ANY theory, official or not, is proven. Just because a theory isn't 'official' doesn't make it a conspiracy theory. Is it still a conspiracy theory if it is found to be truth? Then would the 'official' theory then be considered a conspiracy? Not for 9/11, but in general.


Oh, and as far as terrorists flipping sides ... we have offered deals to those groups to join our side and then we fight against those who don't. That is what the General did recently in Iraq. It will most likely be the strategy in Pakistan as we go back there in greater force than we currently are.



I want to state, I respect views that are different than mine. If I am debating, discussing, I intend no personal aggression, I am usually discussing in general, except for countering a direct point, then it is the person's idea/statement, not the person them self that I am engaging.


Thanks for remaining calm. It is all for the greater good.

reply to post by oROSSTAo


Right on!

P.S. Long time reader recent poster. I've enjoyed your take on a lot of threads Jack

Welcome aboard, and I thank you for your VOTE of confidence!

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

Maybe because it was actually covered-up? there was no need make a conspiracy out of it?

Kwaa???

Why would they bother to coverup the truth behind the Flight 800 disaster?

reply to post by BlueRaja

The entire official story has been proven entirely wrong time and time again, or.... there are some unanswered questions in the official story?

I have already answered your question.

I never claimed that the "entire" official story has been proved one way or the other. I am most concerened about the key facts which have been proved wrong based on their own official evidence and accounts. This calls into question the validity of the entire account as presented by the 9/11 Comission.



[edit on 2/12/0808 by jackinthebox]

reply to post by oROSSTAo

Some things are best done behind closed doors. Others disagree, but it is the truth. Look at the moster people have created with 9-11 now? People don't agree with government, but if they did it in the open how would that change? They still wouldn't believe them. They would be sure there was more behind the scenes than what they were showing.
So, go about it the most efficient way you can.
People (me too) talk and complain about how long it takes for Congress to get anything done. While they have closed meeting, it is in the open.
Imagine the circus if everything in government was that way...nothing at all would get done.

The Government has a right to have some secrets for national security. Blowing up a commercial air liner by mistake (if that's what really happened) does not qualify for that category.
The evidence surrounding the events on 911 overwhelmingly support the theory that there was governmental complicity.
I was a life long, staunch republican (voted for Bush twice) until I got into alternative energy research. I started reading about all the great inventors and their machines which produced clean, abundant energy. I wondered why this technology wasn't in production and solving our "energy crisis". I know these devices worked because many had been certified in lab tests. I found out they were suppressed, mostly by our government.
Imagine my shock! I thought this must be BS. It wasn't. Very powerful people had decided that oil was going to be the fuel of choice and they were going to control it, and that was it. No two bit inventor was going to change that either. These people are like drug dealers, only they want to control the whole market in order to have control over you and me.
How did anyone get that powerful to be able to do that? (Money!) Read your history! Research the Federal Reserve bank and it's origins. Research Freemasons, the CFR, the Rockefellers, Morgans and Rothschilds, International banking, the World Bank, the IMF.
Then look at things like 911 with the perspective of the grand plan these folks have for the world. It all starts to fall into place.
We have all been brainwashed to believe we live in a free society with elected officials who answer to their constituencies. The facts of reality paint a very different story.

reply to post by BlueRaja

I haven't seen evidence that Kerry didn't in fact want to be President, so I'm not convinced of him throwing in the towel.

Then you have no idea what you are talking about.

Kerry throws in the towel

The president had waited many hours to give the speech he had hoped to deliver Tuesday night, and he wasted little time proclaiming his victory less than an hour after Kerry conceded defeat Wednesday morning.

Kerry told supporters in an emotional campaign farewell in Boston that “we cannot win this election.”

“In America, it is vital that every vote count ... but the outcome should be decided by voters, not a protracted legal fight,” Kerry said, referring to an earlier option of contesting the race in Ohio and the fact that Bush was 3 million votes ahead in the popular vote.

SOURCE: www.msnbc.msn.com...






[edit on 2/12/0808 by jackinthebox]

"How to Win an Election: Confessions of a Republican Operative" by Alan Raymond

NPR's Diane Rhiem (might have been Terry G.?) did an interview with him recently. You steal an election by doing anything you can, voter caging, demographic predispositions, fraudulent registrations in some far away little town that suddenly makes it impossible for you to vote...when you get your registrationstraightened out you can vote again. You are free to vote provisionally. But that vote isnt going to count.

John Sununu won by 20,000 votes and Raymond went to jail. Well, he's out and he wrote a book.

"How Ohio Pulled it Off"...I think this is actually a student(OSU?) film.



[edit on 12-2-2008 by themillersdaughter]

[edit on 12-2-2008 by themillersdaughter]

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

A lack of proof to one idea is not a proof of another.

Exactly. And this is why I choose to investigate. Because the lack of proof, and supposed facts which have been disproven, do not prove the official story.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by oROSSTAo

 

Some things are best done behind closed doors. Others disagree, but it is the truth. Look at the moster people have created with 9-11 now? People don't agree with government, but if they did it in the open how would that change? They still wouldn't believe them. They would be sure there was more behind the scenes than what they were showing.
So, go about it the most efficient way you can.
People (me too) talk and complain about how long it takes for Congress to get anything done. While they have closed meeting, it is in the open.
Imagine the circus if everything in government was that way...nothing at all would get done.

I might agree with you if the government were staffed with nothing but proven trustworthy people who's soul intent was in the best interests of it's citizens. Unfortunately, we haven't quite got there yet. So, in the meantime I want to know exactly what they are up to.

reply to post by FreeThinkerIdealist

the example you give for stealing ins't on the same level of peril that the situation for this country is.
You are talking about admiting guilt. I am talking about survival. You in fact would not tell your enemy where you are all of the time. It would be foolish and suicidal.

If you had to lie to stay alive or hide your identity (which is a lie too, really), it is a step you would take.

We have many enemies as well. they are not the big red monster of the USSR (for now anyway), but there are countless others who would love nothing more that do see our fall.

And it is awful to think you equate the insurgents in Iraq with freedom fighters!

I don't remeber where I heard it, but the French Minister of defense said [roughly] that since the 1800's America is the only nation in world to give up the lives of her sons for other nations and not keep the land.
The true extremist muslims were are fighting believe there is no other way to believe or govern. And to even think so is punishable by death. Convert or die.
That is wrong no matter how you look at it.
They are not freedom-fighters, they are evil wishers and covetous overlords.
To think America is an occupier in the normal sense of the word...i don't know how you can do it? America is the greatest nation to ever be on the face of the earth. Much of the world lives in freedom because of a direct result of the US or as an indirect result just from our very existence.

reply to post by Shedman

So there should be no secrets?
The WORLD will never be full of trustwothy people. It is for that exact reason...we needs secrets

reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Here is my question…Since it was a one time event, is it not better to have the country believe that the tragedy of Flight 800 was an accident even if it wasn’t? Why worry about something which we have no control over?
As much as I hate to say it, I think they did the right thing on this one…maybe?

Hi Johnny_Utah, no offence, but would you still ask the same question, and would you still think they did the right thing,
if your own mother or father or your wife or your children where on board of that plane?
And fantasizing that they where, do you really don’t want to know
what those over 100 people saw?
what those two missile-like objects where?
and if it where really missiles,
who fired them?
and for what possible reason?

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_

It is out of the relm of an reasonable thought to think two or three, or however many buildings people are now saying, were set up with explosive charges and timed just right so when a plane flew into them...that's when they go off.

Contrary to your statement, the explosives were not meant to coincide exactly as the planes hit and if so then this was a failure on their part.
It is obvious fact as recorded in countless videos filmed that day that explosions were happening within the towers between the time that the planes hit and the time that the towers fell.
There were people killed and maimed in an explosion in the sub-basement levels of WTC2 moments before the actual plane hit the building.
Explosions were radioed in by many fireman as they made their way through the buildings before the collapse.
Video clearly shows materials ejected through the sides of the buildings in an explosion as they were collapsing. The ejections take place about 10 -20 floors below the part that had actually collapsed up to that point.
On that day as news crews were filming live, I`ll never forget how many of them were reporting the ongoing explosions yet these parts of the recordings were never aired again by mainstream media.

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_[i/]
Think of the man hours put into something like that...yet, nothing seems off to any of the workers in the towers.

Very correct in your assumption. It was well planned out and did take many man hours to complete.
However, there is countless worker testimony of odd occurrences.
There was a controlled blackout the weekend before September 11th.
No security cameras were running and the entire building was accessible.
It was reported that men with overall jumpsuits were making there way around with rolls of cable. To anyone who asked, it was told that they were updating internet cables.
Also there was reports of high levels of dust within the building leading up to September 11th. The dust seemed to be that of which you get when drilling through drywall as described by the workers who noticed this. This would suggest an ongoing construction project.



While many of these observations can be deemed meaningless when standing alone, the combination of so many things taking place along with scientific proof to contradict a falsified report, and an endless list of eyewitnesses on so many topics, is so much to handle that most will rather believe that it is not possible.

It is a scary concept to full envelope one`s mind with the truth that is purposely hidden.
It is deeper then Bush/ Cheney yet it does not need the participation of every single politician.
To really understand where all of this ties together, one must first understand the reality of the Federal Reserve, which many do not even know has nothing to do with Federal government at all.
If you can go back and understand why this country was founded.
Then take a step to the point in time where the federal reserve came into existence and its history of when it was used by our government to it being dropped and subsequently picked up again in the early 1900`s.
There is a very detailed timeline of the Rothschilds (the owners of the international banks that all but 5 countries in the entire world are a part of) by an author named Andrew Hitchcock pointing out every major event in this country`s history. It is available to read online should one want to.

Once you understand the undercover agenda that is perpetrated by a group of power elite you can realize a lot of whats going on.

Nobody can dispute the fact that planes hit the towers, but there are too many things that cannot be explained and have been explained by lies. All we (the ones who know we are in some shyt) want to do is point out the facts. Nothing is totally explainable except the fact that lies were used to distort our understanding of the truth and it was not meant to be in our best interests.