The government lied to us...and they should have

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posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:21 PM
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Originally posted by NoPhobos

Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
Yep, time for a new thread...i think.


Please post a link here if you get around to making a new thread.

here you go!

www.abovetopsecret.com...




posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:22 PM
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So, would it be safe for me to claim victory in this particular thread then? That it is certainly better to have an informed discussion based on facts, than to submit to propoganda and intentional obfuscation of the truth?

Intermediate conspiracy theorist "jackinthebox" convinces new member "Johnny Utah" to DENY IGNORANCE!!!





[edit on 2/15/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
So, would it be safe for me to claim victory in this particular thread then? That is is certainly better to have an informed discussion based on facts, than to submit to propoganda and intentional obfuscation of the truth?

Intermediate conspiracy theorist "jackinthebox" convinces new member "Johnny Utah" to DENY IGNORANCE!!!



[edit on 2/15/0808 by jackinthebox]

you can CLAIM whatever you want and if it makes you feel better...then that's what counts.



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 05:12 PM
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one last question re: need to know stuff

utah - what do you think about that case in which Area 51 workers' lawsuit was dismissed on govt's argument that such proceedings (the workers claimed they were exposed to toxic fumes resulting in sickness/death) would jeopardize natl security...



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 11:06 PM
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reply to post by damagemouse
 


An excellent point. What say you Johnny? Is it okay for government employees to be subject to working in toxic and deadly condiditons without knowing about it, and then be denied the right to sue the government for their negligence?



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by damagemouse
one last question re: need to know stuff

utah - what do you think about that case in which Area 51 workers' lawsuit was dismissed on govt's argument that such proceedings (the workers claimed they were exposed to toxic fumes resulting in sickness/death) would jeopardize natl security...




That is a GREAT question!
Don’t get me wrong. I am not saying I am in favor of letting the government cover everything up. My example was with TWA Flight 800.
Now as far as Area 51…
1) I think it is absurd the government denied it existed for so long…that IS an insult to the American people
2) I think they may have been better served to say “This region is classified at the highest possible level.” People would still have questions about what went on there, but I think it would have better understood…then they could have also made an even stronger and more visible security presence.
Now with that said, honestly, I don’t know.
I would think there is, and if there isn’t, there should be a process where people working on classified and higher projects have a way to voice their grievances. To not allow a due process is unconstitutional and I will never support it.
It would seem very simple to make a court which works specifically and only in such matters and at the same time is allowed to keep TRUE national security issues undisclosed. The problem I see with it, though, is since it would be so secret, there is a much higher risk of impartiality being lax or even lost all together. With impartiality gone, the process it pointless.
I guess I will say this…it wrong what they did, but without knowing what the people were working with or how advanced the technology was, I can understand why they did it.



posted on Feb, 15 2008 @ 11:52 PM
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reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 




I think it is absurd the government denied it existed for so long…that IS an insult to the American people


Worse than an insult, it was an outright lie. They were hiding it from the American people, not the Soviets. Why hide it then? The Soviets knew it was there all along, and had a pretty good idea of what was going on there as well. I would venture to say that Putin knows more about what goes on at Area 51 than any American who has never worked there.



[edit on 2/15/0808 by jackinthebox]



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 

So, are we on the same line of thought on this one?



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 12:27 AM
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reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 


Well, undertanding "why" the government tossed the case and actually condoning it are two different things really. Furthermore, I wonder if you realize how deep the rabbit hole really goes.

But I can certainly agree that we have struck some common ground.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 12:47 AM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 


Well, undertanding "why" the government tossed the case and actually condoning it are two different things really. Furthermore, I wonder if you realize how deep the rabbit hole really goes.

But I can certainly agree that we have struck some common ground.




So with that, I am going to retire for the evening.

However, I shall return!



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 11:34 AM
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Secrecy is a tactic of war. You don't let the enemy know your strategy. Also, terror works by frightening people. If a terrorist shot down Flight 800 then the best way to negate the effect is to cover up the existance of the terrorist. I would like to think that if a plane is hijacked by terrorist our military would do the right thing and shoot it down before it crashes into a building. The people in the plane are dead either way, and hitting a building exponentially increases the death toll.

As I was saying about tactical secrecy, let's not forget we ARE at war. Iraq is not the war, it is a battle. The war is world-wide. It is Western Culture versus Islamic Extremists. It is amazing to me how so many people here in the US and abroad can pretend this war is not happening, and are so derisive against the US government whenever the government has to use tactical secrecy in this war. The governments did similar things in WWII but back then I guess people actually wanted to defeat the enemy (Nazism). Perhaps the main difference is that the new enemy is harder to see because they aren't represent by one nation with shiny uniforms and a solitary leader, thus it is easy to pretend they don't exist.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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reply to post by spaznational
 
You are so right!
People (not all, but many here for sure) seem to equate secrecy with evil. It is undeniable that evil deeds are plotted in secret. But what people forget, is that beneficial things are done in secret as well. The Federal Government’s has a DUTY to “Provide for the Common Defense.” We elect leaders to do the will of the people, for sure, but we also elect them because we trust their judgment and wisdom. We are entrusting them with the job of defending us, and if by doing that, they have to keep from the public many things…any reasonable person should understand that.
We ARE at war, without a doubt. We see all the numbers of how many people have died as a result…and it IS tragic. But there has never been a war and never will be one in which innocent people were not dying. The common and exhausting question asked now is….well, what if it was you and they were bombing your house or your town?
Okay, what if it was YOU then? What if the war was here? What if the roadside bombs were blowing up next to school buses in the morning? What if, at our local employment centers, people walked in and blew themselves up and killing anyone who was close enough?
Look at it that way, because that is the other choice. We fight them over there or we wait and fight them here. There are no other choices. There is no compromising it. They want us dead.
They are an enemy who wants nothing less than to destroy our way of life and erase the model of freedom we are. The rights we take for granted, are the things they say we do not deserve and should die for. The idea that we have the ability to disagree and discuss as we do here…is an evil to them. They want to oppress and they want to have an overlordship over us.
Think about that!
People say the terrorists are no Nazi Germany with legions of high-kicking soldiers or an Imperial Japan with countless numbers willing to die for the sake of conquest…they are right. But because that is true, does it mean we wait until they reach that status? Do you not think that is what they covet? Does it mean we wait until they become united and force control of nations and their armies as well?
Do you wait to stop the fire until the house is raging? No, you stop it as soon as you can. If possible, you prevent it.

I know if the numbers were reversed, and it was that many Americans dying because the war was in the streets of Kansas City and Chicago and Hollywood…the voices crying for the end of the war now, would be demanding the same thing, but by way of the military destroying the attackers. It is better for this nation to engage them closer to their operation bases. What is bad for them, is good for US.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 06:14 PM
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Originally posted by jackinthebox
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 


You seem to have a lot of nice things to say about Russia, and fail to see the real reason why the Soviet Union collapsed. Because the people at the top ran their country into the ground and walked away with the profits. Hwo could this happen? Because the people did not have the right to question anything, and were never told the truth.



The whole perspective would look at what is good for the country?


Are you a Communist Johnny? That was the backbone of their system. The collective good. When you sacrifice the truth for the collective good, you are a Communist.


This is a response to something you said awhile back.
While the idea for “the common good” is a Socialistic idea…that does not mean it is an exclusively Socialist practice or to practice it requires you be a Socialist. Indeed, if that was the sole aim or ideal, behind all decisions …it would be wrong. It could be said then, that “Providing for the Common Defense” is Socialistic as well.
I am a Capitalist, and being such I believe Socialism is EVIL because it deprives individuals of the ability to do what they think is best for themselves. I want to make more money than anyone else…selfish? Maybe, but it is something I should be able to do. If I want to try for six other degrees, I should be able to do that. If I want to quit what I am doing now and become a painter, I can. If I want to hoard food or pack things away like a shrew…I am able to.
Communism/Socialism says men are the property of each other. I believe they own themselves.
Now with respect to Flight 800, it was a “common good” idea or spirit, but the system of government we have does not use it as a backbone. In many ways it does the exact opposite by protecting the rights of the minorities. Again, it also shows how we are not a Democracy either…Democracies never protect the rights of the minority…in Democracies whoever has the most power rules.
That is why we are a Constitutional/Representative Republic.












posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 07:32 PM
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In my humble oponion you have to be pretty darn stupid to look at all the events of the last 60 or so years leading up to 9/11/2001, all of the self False Flag ops countries countries perpatrated on thier peoples and got away with it. Namely the U.S. and the U.K.

To believe that they were BOTH running wargames that had the EXACT same scenarios that occured on 7/7 the subway bombings in England, and the same exact thing on 9/11.

I mean really who with 10 or more brain cells could but into the official story.

Look at the long line of U.S. False flag operations, and self inflicted wounds USED as a pretext for war. They been doing it for so long.

As I've said many times before, the debunkers on this sight, had either be getting something for what they are writing, because it's drivle, that anyone who was around and watching the television on 9/11, then did some follow up research after that know this was an inside job.

So either you metally retarded (I know many retarded people, and I feel for them), but it's either that or your trolling for the heck of it, some people do have fun going against the grain just to stir the pot so to speak, or your being compensated. Either way, your posts are trash, imo, and you ignore all of the Amazing coincidences and facts about 9/11 that if this case was brought before a court of law it'd be a slam dunk for the prosecutors.

I really need to make a response for threads like this started buy shil....., uh I mean trolls, that I can just copy and paste in in and be done with it.

Do you people even know Your government Funded Alqueda, and is in bed with the Bin Laden Family? Cover-up? Hah, tiny word, conspiracy, isn't even a big enough word for what went on on 9/11. I mean that day was planned for years, most likely 3-5 years in the makeing.

But our president would not lie to us. He sure does, and he's on tape lieing multiple times.

Clinton backs up Dubya you say? HOHOHOHOHO! That must make it all Kosher, were they smoking cigars while yucking it up, or doing something else with them?

Unbelievable the pitiful state that our government is in, the only thing more pitiful is the people that sell this crap, and the people who buy it and eat it.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 10:06 PM
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reply to post by Nola213
 

Bring on the insults, buddy!
I love it, I have another angry Michael Moore fan.
But wait, you didn’t get the information from him.
You must be an Alex Jones fan.
No, you didn’t get things from him either? Loose Change? Rosie? Did you see that “who killed John O’Neill “movie (that was soooooo well done by the way)? Or did you just do a search on the net for 9-11 conspiracy and go NUTS at all the “facts” waiting to be picked up? Didn’t get it there?
Running out of research tools…
Oh, I know what it was…
You are one of the people who will never admit it and deny it until your dying gasp, but really “want” to believe in a government conspiracy or who “just knew something wasn’t right.” It looked off right? You have sense about this kind of stuff, I bet. Maybe you’re psychic…
Somewhere deep inside of you, you are afraid to think we( you, me, and everyone else) are that vulnerable. There is no way a few people who believed they had an edict from god and they would live in Paradise for the deed….no they couldn’t have done it. Maybe you are referring to the hijackers who are said to be alive in other countries? Where are the pictures of them? Where are they? Second and third hand accounts don’t have any weight. Where are they? The media would be all over it.
Did you look at the study from Purdue I posted? It was done to see in general how planes colliding with buildings, of similar and not so similar structure, had an impact. You know what they found? The fall pretty close to the way the World Trade Center Towers did. Did you know the Towers were DESIGNED to fall the way they did? It wasn’t designed like the local 30 story bank building in any town. They were built in sections “tubes,” growing larger as you went out until the final section was the outside of the building. The engineers knew the dangers of making buildings so tall. If for some reason they were to collapse, they would fall inside of themselves. So in a way, yes, it was controlled…but control from the onset of building! The “squibs” that are seen…they are the sections of the building falling through as designed. Those are the “explosions” people heard. When a thirty story section falls on another one just like it…it’s going to make some noise.
I love the arrogance of the conspiratorial mind. They assume because people don’t see the facts in the same way, or (heaven forbid) disagree all together…they are idiots or “retards” as you say. No one is as smart as the conspiracy theorist…please.
I know, it is fun play along, but at some point the fun needs to stop and reality needs to set in.
You think the government wanted to blow up those buildings and kill all those people? You honestly believe it? How? President Bush (who everyone thinks is an idiot) was smart enough to pull this off? Oh, no, it was Dick Cheney…isn’t that a little too convenient? That’s like a child in grade school pointing to kid next him and saying “he did it!” Was it the mysterious “illuminati” working with their hoards of mason worshipers? It was organized during the naked romps in the California forests?
How many conspiracies do you believe in? And they all fall in line with one another. They just all work right out….just as planned.
I bet you can hear the black helicopters getting nearer because YOU have finally found the truth. They are waiting to take your freedoms! When everyone is out to get you...paranoia is the issue. They have pills for that now, you know.



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 10:15 PM
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reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 


do you tell every one you pissed on the seat, and didnt clean it



posted on Feb, 16 2008 @ 11:16 PM
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Originally posted by koodaaa
reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 


do you tell every one you pissed on the seat, and didnt clean it


Are you Alex Jones?



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by _Johnny_Utah_
reply to post by Nola213
 

You are one of the people who will never admit it and deny it until your dying gasp, but really “want” to believe in a government conspiracy or who “just knew something wasn’t right.” It looked off right?

Somewhere deep inside of you, you are afraid to think we( you, me, and everyone else) are that vulnerable.



That's accurate, IMHO. Conspiracy theorists forget about Occam's Razor. "One should not increase, beyond what is necessary, the number of entities required to explain anything." They tend to do the opposite of this, and they certainly do get creative and elaborate. Not content with just filling in the blanks, they actually create blanks, draw tenuous correlations, and deny all coincidence. This enormous effort to make up an elaborate back-story for world events points to--as you mentioned--a deep-seated fear (or more likely a paranoia).

A lot of it is thinly disguised Bush-bashing, which is very popular hobby these days for leftists. It seems ironic to me that people on the far left who like to think of themselves as enlightened and fair-minded are so venomous . . . I'm looking at you, Code Pink, you hateful old vipers.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 08:44 PM
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reply to post by _Johnny_Utah_
 




Maybe you are referring to the hijackers who are said to be alive in other countries? Where are the pictures of them? Where are they? Second and third hand accounts don’t have any weight. Where are they? The media would be all over it.


This has been reported in the media. Pictures and all. Try the BBC.



posted on Feb, 17 2008 @ 09:00 PM
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reply to post by jackinthebox
 


How do I put in the search?
I put in 9-11 hijackers alive
I tried 9-11 hijackers found
I tried 9-11 hijackers found alive
I only get stuff that has no relation to what I want...

Help me out if you would. I really am trying to look it up.





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