Why do Christians always assume they're right?

reply to post by OhZone


I was referring to the take over of the promised land. They killed everything, including the livestock. example Joshua 6:21

What verse are you referring to? It was probably at a later date.

Really this is off topic. So to get back ON topic.

Another reason Christians think they are right is fufilled prophecies.

A personal favorite is the 6 day war in 1967. Israel is a nation again after almost 2000 years.
Nothing even comes close to the Bible in this regard.

[edit on 2/13/2008 by Bigwhammy]

Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by jimbo999

 

Hello, Jimbo. I must say you have me a little confused. Yes, I agree it is very likely the "divine" references in Josephus' Testimonium were later Christian interpolations but on one side you are saying there is no documentation of Jesus' historical existence (and I beg to differ of course but don't want to go off on tangents) then mention two passages from Josephus: The Testimonium without its interpolations and the James-Jesus passage. Explain, please? Everything you just cited about the Testimonum is exactly what most Christians and secular historians believe concerning the original citation.

Hello Ashley,

The Testmimonum is still not definitive evidence to state an absolute truth, hence the existence of Jesus. You must also realize that Josephus himself has been scrutinized from time to time by many Roman as well as biblical historians as speculative and his motives were always not rooted in truth or fact.

Your going to need more outside references than that, outside the Bible there are very,very few if any. I am not saying he did not exist its just that the outside references are few and far between, if you take the New Testament out of the mix. Both sides have solid arguments but one side is right and one is wrong...and it seems that Christians will never admit that there is "evidence" that he could have been just a man or that he may have never lived.........God forbid what that may do to the church donations this Sunday.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by luxor311]

Originally posted by luxor311
The Testmimonum is still not definitive evidence to state an absolute truth, hence the existence of Jesus. You must also realize that Josephus himself has been scrutinized from time to time by many Roman as well as biblical historians as speculative and his motives were always not rooted in truth or fact.

Thanks for the reply, Luxor. But I must say the demands for sources do get a little ridiculous at times. There are several sources other than the Gospel writings within the first and second centuries. Whenever they are offered, the reply is typically, "Well, other than that then." The only way we could be definitive for the existence of any figure in antiquity is to build a time machine and take along a video recorder.

Your going to need more outside references than that, outside the Bible there are very,very few if any.

There are actually quite a few but hardcore skeptics pretty much dismiss them all by using arguments like, "Well, that historian was a drunk," or "That author wrote about Jesus after His lifetime." Critics seem to forget Jesus' ministry only lasted three years, took place in the armpit of the Roman Empire, and the Christian movement didn't become an issue for the empire until Jesus' death.

That's when the secular and pagan historians started to take notice. In their opinions, Jesus was just another Jewish rabbi that didn't deserve any form of mention. After Christianity moved to Rome, it became a different story. Justin Martyr even points out the record of Jesus' birth in the Roman census records. It is interesting that not a single person claims Jesus did not exist in their histories. That would have squashed the whole religion at it's roots but instead the focus was on His divinity. Which leads us to the next point...

...and it seems that Christians will never admit that there is "evidence" that he could have been just a man...

That's not entirely true. The pagan historian Celsus wrote a very large polemic against Christianity. He dissected the arguments of Jesus' divinity and in summary wrote, "He was just a man as the evidence shows." Had Jesus never existed, I don't see the point of him launching into such long winded arguments. All he would have had to say is that Jesus never existed. And surely much more evidence of His existence would have been around during his lifetime than ours. Such a denial would have seemed preposterous. Even Jesus' great nephews are recorded as having stood trial in the courts as well as Jesus' half brothers.

or that he may have never lived.........

It's because such an admission defies common sense, Love. I'm not going to get into this any further in this comment but there is plenty of evidence- more so than many other figures in antiquity- to believe He at least existed. His divinity is an issue that takes faith (although there is some interesting evidence to support His Messiahship) but to deny He ever even existed (actually a very rare opinion) calls for some massive denial.

First off, Christianity isn't the only religion that thinks this way. Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, and many other religions believe their means of salvation and tenants are the only true way. Let's not all get pitted against Christians now, we have to look at the bigger picture of the matter- that most religions believe they're right. Not just Christianity.

However, the biggest reason Christians hold to this claim is from what Jesus himself said in John 14:6, which reads:

"Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." - John 14:6, New Living Translation

Clearly, this verse identifies why most Christians believe Christianity is the only way, because Jesus Christ himself said it. The only way to reconcile his claim is to look at the possibilities of Jesus' statement:

EITHER

1. Jesus is who he says he is.

OR

2. He's a dirty little liar.

If you're a believing Christian, then you've already accepted the first statement, and therefore believe he is "the way, the truth, and the life". You can't both believe he is the ONLY way and also believe there are multiple ways at the same time. It's an either/or situation, because Jesus - the cornerstone of Christianity - claimed these things himself.

There are however, many Christians who are Universalists who believe everyone eventually will be saved, whether it be by Jesus dying on the cross or some other means. This isn't mainstream theology though.





[edit on 13-2-2008 by RockAwayRadio]

Originally posted by RockAwayRadio
First off, Christianity isn't the only religion that thinks this way. Islam, Judaism, Mormonism, and many other religions believe their means of salvation and tenants are the only true way. Let's not all get pitted against Christians now, we have to look at the bigger picture of the matter- that most religions believe they're right. Not just Christianity.

However, the biggest reason Christians hold to this claim is from what Jesus himself said in John 14:6, which reads:

"Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me." - John 14:6, New Living Translation

Clearly, this verse identifies why most Christians believe Christianity is the only way, because Jesus Christ himself said it. The only way to reconcile his claim is to look at the possibilities of Jesus' statement:

EITHER

1. Jesus is who he says he is.

OR

2. He's a dirty little liar.

If you're a believing Christian, then you've already accepted the first statement, and therefore believe he is "the way, the truth, and the life". You can't both believe he is the ONLY way and also believe there are multiple ways at the same time. It's an either/or situation, because Jesus - the cornerstone of Christianity - claimed these things himself.

There are however, many Christians who are Universalists who believe everyone eventually will be saved, whether it be by Jesus dying on the cross or some other means. This isn't mainstream theology though.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by RockAwayRadio]

The fact is that we really dont know what Jesus really said, just what "others" claim he said. Look at the Quelle gospel which were the sayings of Jesus passed down until the Mark got his hands on a pen and started "interpreting" the sayings of Jesus. It looks pretty powerful to try to establish a new movement within the Roman Empire as well as under-handing the Jews with a statement like John 14:6. Its a very powerful statement but is it really what he said or what John perhaps "willed" him to say..Funny 14:6 is in the last Gospel written just as John also establishes an anti-semitic tone.

FYI

Judaism, does not advertise that they're religion is the only way to God. As a matter of fact they pretty much keep it to themselves.

[edit on 13-2-2008 by luxor311]

reply to post by luxor311


Dude, I ask myself this very question quite a bit.
I don't know what gives the bad apples the right to act all elite and superior, but I'm sick of it.
Christianity is not the be-all/end-all authority on life (and the herebefore or hereafter) so why can't they all just back off?
I have a bad headache and I'm probably just rambling at this point, but I think I'm getting my point across.

reply to post by wu kung


Sometimes I think religions like Christianity practices serious brainwashing. I think most people are more comfortable with being told what to believe, than questioning what they are told.


[edit on 13-2-2008 by luxor311]

[edit on 13-2-2008 by luxor311]

reply to post by luxor311


I think you're right.
There is nothing more dangerous than a whole group of people that are capable of thinking for themselves.
One of the best, oldest and most effective behavioral modifiers is fear.
And when you place the reins of fear in the hands of something almighty, it exponentially increases the usefulness and effect of the technique.

Wow, is this thread still active? I would have thought it would be dead by now.

I guess it just proves how much some people need to have a group to hate.

Sigh

TheRedneck

reply to post by luxor311

Why do athiests or people of other religions than Christianity always assume Christians have been brainwashed? I came to be a Christian as an adult and studied it heavily before I became one.

Christianity is NOT based on fear. It's based on love. I have no fear. Do you?

This is just another bash Christians thread. You guys are everywhere. Take a break.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
Wow, is this thread still active? I would have thought it would be dead by now.

I guess it just proves how much some people need to have a group to hate.

Sigh

TheRedneck

Thats a pretty shallow statement. I guess that depends on your definition of "some people" and "group".....no need to check back

[edit on 13-2-2008 by luxor311]

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Because whenever we're told that these people are dirty subhuman filth that must be destroyed, it's the absolute truth, amirite?

"Oh oh. it's okay. They had funny DNA!"

Sorry AshleyD. I give up. You're a stowaway on a ship of fools. I'd suggest converting to something smart. Raeliens are in this year, I hear.

reply to post by luxor311


I'm not trying to find what Jesus may actually have said. The fact is the canonized
books of the Bible are the only references Christians use to know about Christ and what he said. Whether or not they're true doesn't change the fact that they believe it. Therefore, to answer the OP's question, John 14:6 provides an accurate reason for Christians to believe they're right and other's are wrong. This whole post has steered far from the original post's question. I'm just trying to put the train back on the tracks.

Have we not learned by now that religious arguments over the internet - well, in almost any situation - get absolutely nowhere?

Originally posted by luxor311
Why do Christians always assume they're right?

Whenever it comes to other religions or atheists or points of spirituality that dont recognize Jesus as the definitive word of God its "wrong" or "misleading" or "untruthful".

Isn't that the same ideology that has divided the world, controlled the masses, started wars and killed thousands and thousands over the years? Sure Christianity is not to blame for all the above reasons but the ideals that Christians are always right and the rest of the world is wrong is very destructive....I think it is anyway. Why cant other religions be right as well?

[edit on 11-2-2008 by luxor311]

[edit on 11-2-2008 by luxor311]

this thread is kind of a pointless attack. atheists always believe they are right, muslims always believe they are right, in fact im pretty sure everyone believes they are right, otherwise why believe in it?

so your point it is?

reply to post by miriam0566


Well, there's the question... If Christians are all kind, loving, wonderful, flawless people interested only in the betterment and harmony of mankind (Or so I have gathered from posters on this thread...) why perpetuate the "we're right, you're wrong!" one-upsmanship mentality, since they know how divisive it is?

Why not just "You believe in that? That's great, best of luck!" or some other "Not my thing, but i'm not going to down you for it" sort of approach? I mean c'mon...

this thread is kind of a pointless attack. atheists always believe they are right, muslims always believe they are right, in fact im pretty sure everyone believes they are right, otherwise why believe in it?

so your point it is?

I think one of the main points of this thread is that atheists believe what the think is true though facts and figures - proof and evidence- logic and commonsense

Muslims, Christians and other religions base their beliefs on what they believe in to be true on faith. I think the main point of this thread is why do religious people mainly Christians believe in what they do so strongly if it’s just faith.

Originally posted by idle_rocker

 

Christianity is NOT based on fear. It's based on love.

Ah, so I guess atrocities like the Spanish Inquisition were just massive displays of love huh?
And priests molesting children, just another display of love that the rest of us just can't understand.
Why does the church preach poverty yet the Pope lives in complete opulence?
So, just where does all of that donated money go, hmmm?

I'm not against Christianity, but I am against the hypocrisies of any religion or system of belief.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


That's easy, because you can't be right until you've either proven your point beyond doubt or you totally crush the belief system of those opposed to you.

And that's how the Christian church operates, they chip away at your belief system and instill fear in you until you're totally broken, then they can rebuild (or reprogram) you to suit their belief structure.
A lot of religions do this.
Hell, most parents do this to get their kids to fall into line.
Teachers do it.
Corporations do it too.

But the ones who made it common place were the Christian church.


On a slightly unrelated (but yet slightly related) topic, I have heard, from more than one source, that the Christians are the reason why there is little or no magic left in this world.
Their two millennia long campaign has effectively wiped out many pagan religions and non-christian belief systems in which magic was a major aspect.
I have also heard (again, pure speculation) that the Vatican has procured many, many, many artifacts from all corners of the world.
Artifacts that contain powers that could effectively put an end to the lies of the church.
Yeah, it sounds ridiculous, but in all seriousness, it's really only ridiculous because (even though we may or may not be Christians) we're all brainwashed as children to believe that magic is the stuff of fairy tales and the church is the only real source of power.
But, what if that's untrue?
What if the church has been working for so long to suppress aspects of the world, aspects of nature that used to be, and should still be, active parts of our daily lives?

Christianity is the reason why there is no magic left in the world?
Well, looking back diligently through history, it doesn't sound so ridiculous.

I work with alot of devoted christians. Some are truely good people, and are understanding and respectful of other religions/beliefs. While others are downright ingorant to the world around them, brainwashed by their parents and religious leaders. They fear the unknown, they are afraid of death, and deeply afraid they are wrong. Its their way of staying complacent in the face of a world filled with corruption, pollution, and uncertainty. Everyone finds "god" in the trenches. God is a word used very loosely. Alot like love.

Originally posted by wu kung

Ah, so I guess atrocities like the Spanish Inquisition were just massive displays of love huh?

No, actually horrible examples of what man can do.

And priests molesting children, just another display of love that the rest of us just can't understand.

Another abhorrant example of man's inhumanity to man.

Why does the church preach poverty yet the Pope lives in complete opulence?

A misunderstanding, friend. The Bible does not condone poverty. Perhaps some people do. And yeah, the Pope is a little over the top, IMHO.

I'm not against Christianity, but I am against the hypocrisies of any religion or system of belief.

As am I. I guess we do have common ground to build on, after all.

For what it's worth, The things you mentioned above are not examples of Christianity, rather examples of Hypocrisy disguised as Christianity. I believe it's Westside Baptist Church that reqularly protests funerals of fallen soldiers? The last time I heard from them was a threatened protest at the funerals of the Amish children that were shot down in Lancaster. I just happened to have a load to York the day before the funerals. I called dispatch and told them not to dispatch me on another load right away, as I was one of several drivers planning a little trip to Lancaster to make sure the funerals were undisturbed.

I tell this not to tout my own actions, but to illustrate that a person who does evil under a 'christian' banner does not always have support from those who actually believe in the faith.

TheRedneck

edited for error


[edit on 14-2-2008 by TheRedneck]