Masked protesters target Scientology's 'tactics'

All I know about Scientology is from a South Park episode.

They think they know something... the cohesive force in any group.

The SP secret divulged did run like a big SiFi story.

But too good to be publish.

In any case when a YouTube poster came out against Scientology
it has millions of hits and 1000 video responses, so I put mine
there too.
This will only cause Scientology to hire more internet troopers.
Those TV ads finally ended and the new frontier of the internet will
soon be invaded.

Get your $250 initiation fee for the e reading.

What do you need 8s or 9s?

Originally posted by bigbert81
This is so friggin' absurd, I want to smack these people.

This is NOTHING more, NOTHING more, than religious bigotry. I feel like we've stepped back into the medieval ages with the crusades when I hear about people protesting other's beliefs. I really thought (except for the middle east) that we were past this.

Soon enough, we're going to start seeing suicide Christians taking out Scientology organizations in the name of Allah...ooops, I mean God. (ok, maybe a bit of a stretch, but I think you get my point).

Bigotry, and nothing more.

Can you tell me then, what is a "supressed person"?
What is the "fair game doctrine"?

It sounds to me as if you're either a scientologist or you know nothing at all about who and what this so-called church is about. Spend a few hours doing some research on the internet, my friend. Find out what the "fair game doctrine" is and then tell me CoS is a religion.

www.holysmoke.org...

[edit on 2/11/08 by kattraxx]

Originally posted by ModernDystopia
reply to post by bigbert81

 

Following your logic, you also believe that Nazism is a belief system and one should not be bigoted towards them. Hell, your logic states that racism is a belief system and therefore one cannot be bigoted towards racism.

In fact, I think you're being bigoted towards my belief that Scientology is a cult.

Your logic fails. You fail.

ROTFLMAO.

*Applause* Can you hear it? *Applause*

Brilliantly said and done! Especially the way you twist it all around. The only thing I'm saying and have been saying is live and let live. As long as it's not hurting people or infringing their rights, live and let live.

I understand that people have been hurt in EVERY religion, but to find one and isolate it as being a cult is NOT the logic of a good man. Whether it's a cult or not, live and let live.

Just because I'm supporting freedom and equality doesn't mean I agree with Scientology or think the Nazis were right. I'm sorry if your bigoted mind cannot see that, but don't take your one mindset and turn it around into hate.

It's thoughts like yours that cause suicide bombers in Israel, or the deaths of thousands every year. Your disdain for something and your belief to support fighting what others want to believe.

Once again, for the 3rd time, I can see that you've not read the posts in the thread. This is a violation of the TOS of ATS. Perhaps you should check them out? www.abovetopsecret.com...

There you go.

reply to post by AlphaOfTheOmega


Firstly, I was being serious about being civil, so I'm sorry you perceived it as sarcastic.

Second, I understand the point. I don't know why people keep writing this. I understand Anonymous supposedly going after the church, and not the belief system. And if that's TOTALLY true, then I would like to see some evidence that the church's basic practices include harming people or sacrificing them.

But I don't think you'll find it, except for a couple of outlanding exceptions, or else the gov't would have shut them down.

There. I hope that answers your questions as to why I'm saying what I have been, instead of you not seeing that I seem to have a better understanding than you apparently think.

reply to post by kattraxx


It's funny that this whole debate thing has nothing to do with what most of these posts going against me are saying.

After supposedly reading what I've been saying, why are people still trying to convice me that Scientology is bad? That's not the point.

Originally posted by bigbert81
reply to post by kattraxx

 

It's funny that this whole debate thing has nothing to do with what most of these posts going against me are saying.

After supposedly reading what I've been saying, why are people still trying to convice me that Scientology is bad? That's not the point.

Personally, I was trying to get you to do some research which will cause you to convince yourself that CoS is bad. I totally understand your point. But CoS harms people every day-- it's their sole purpose-- to get people's money and the end justifies the means. That's why people are so passionately against CoS. It's a cult created to bilk people out of their money. Just Google "scientology and deception", or homicide, suicide, fair game doctrine, fraud, etc. etc. etc. The hundreds of thousands of pages you'll pull up will keep you quite busy and explain a lot.

[edit on 2/11/08 by kattraxx]

reply to post by anon902503

Anonymous has more self control than you could possibly imagine. The only way that anyone will get hurt is if the Cult of Scientology chooses to resort to violence.. as they have in the past.

It's unfortunate that you don't understand the meaning of the true meaning of first amendment. Taking a stand against a violent corporation is not bigotry, it's free expression.

Hmmm, I'm trying to decide if this ridiculous quote even warrants a response.

A 'violent corporation'? Please read the very last post I just made, and hopefully you'll be able to grasp it.

The only way someone could get hurt is if a scientologist starts it? How incredibly naive. What an ignorant thing to say. You're right. The only people who cause violence upon others are Scientologists.

I'd say more, but I fear I'm just wasting my time with you.

reply to post by ImaginaryReality1984

Freedom or ideas, speech and the right to protest wherever or whenever you want is i believe protected by your constitution. As you said you can't pick adn choose which parts of the constitution you can follow, so they are well within their rights to protest.

Fair enough. Good point. Of course, I'm not referring to taking away people's rights to protest.

Did you ever see the thread The Most Hated Family in America?

Even though I think these people are crazy and wrong, I never said anything about taking it away from them. And you don't see me making a big stink about it and recruiting people against it just because I don't agree with them, do you? Live and let live.

BTW, the last time I said this, someone got offended, but seriously, thx for speaking with civility. No sarcasm.

reply to post by Springheel Jack

Hey all,
Just here to add my 2cents, I can see where Bigbert is coming from and I agree that people have to be careful not too infringe upon another's beliefs, I totally agree.

WTF?! You mean I'm NOT crazy?! Seriously, thx for that. It's nice to see my posts are making sense to SOMEONE here.

Much appreciated

reply to post by kattraxx

I totally understand your point.

You too. Thanks for having the balls to actually say that on this thread. I felt as though I was going to snap because it didn't seem as though anyone could understand what I've been trying to say.

As far as taking people's money, do I think it's morally right? No. However, people should be allowed to spend their money how they see fit. It's THEIR money, and the church has THEIR way of doing things. But I can see why you don't care for it at all.

Originally posted by bigbert81

Did you ever see the thread The Most Hated Family in America?

Even though I think these people are crazy and wrong, I never said anything about taking it away from them. And you don't see me making a big stink about it and recruiting people against it just because I don't agree with them, do you? Live and let live.

Exactly. The most hated family in America recently went to a Texas military base to "protest". No one had to "take" anything away from them because so many Americans felt the moral imperative to go down there to protest them, that the most hated family in America didn't have the guts to show up.

There's the law that says they have the right to protest and say any hateful thing they can think of, and I believe in that law, but there is also a moral imperative that directs people to speak out against such idiocy that trumps that law, in some cases.

Yes, this is a difficult situation.
On the one hand you're concerned about the rights of the population and the former members or detractors and on the other hand, there's the issue of the rights of the people to follow their belief system and spend their money how they see fit. Not an easy call and one I don't personally want to make. I may disagree with some of their beliefs, but I don't think that means they should be forced to live without them.
The only stipulation I would have is that it not be deliberately harmful to others, regardless of their station or grade or whatever that scale is that's used to determine a person's worth in their system.

I had the same situation to ponder over the use of peyote by a native american tribe, during its rituals. Although I may not agree with the usage of peyote, I do agree with their rights to practice it as part of their religion (Especially since it was used on the reservation which is supposed to be a little country onto itself).

Another example is polygamy in mormonism. i may not agree with it, but don't understand why it is outlawed, not only because it is a religious practice but because people have sex with other people all the time and the fact these folks wanted to actually be responsible to the people they had sex with, was to me, an upgrade from the current situation.

The world is an odd place, methinks.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by undo]

I wrote to a person in the conspiracy field - Illuminati information etc... and this is what was said about the Scientology Protests.

The more coverage an issue gets, the more it grows. Look at cancer, drug and child abuse, etc. Lots of campaigns against them, yet has the growth of any of these categories slowed down? Of course not! Same with scientology or anything highlighted in the media which is largely controlled by the same people who control everything else

It seems to me, that the 'energy' focused on 'anti-scientology', is the same energy for 'pro-scientology' if you were to believe in the documentary 'The Secret'. Anon - congratulations for making Scientology a greater threat and giving them the power to grow exponentially!

A Friend of mine also said that the basis of "The Secret" was Scientology Tech.

Quote from "The Secret"

Instead of being Anti-War, be Pro-Peace, don't give power to War by being involved inti Anti-War Protests. The Universe does not see the difference between Pro and Anti

Thx.

[edit on 11/2/2008 by Im a Marty]

reply to post by bigbert81


Greetings,
I understand your point and it is a valid one. One should never attack the religious beliefs of another. As you stated..

As long as it's not hurting people or infringing their rights, live and let live.

And that is where the problem lies. The Church of scientology has a long and established history of deliberately hurting others.

I have first hand knowledge of this as my family was a target. Under orders of Church of Scientology leaders, church members broke into my fathers office, which he shared with three other professionals. They stole private medical records, and repeatedly made harassing phone calls. Eventually, after my father and his associates endured many months of severe harassment, some of the church members were caught by federal authorities and jailed. What was my fathers crime that the church would do this to him and his business partners??? They were simply psychiatrists who had an office together just a few blocks down from the Church.

This is an established matter of public record. Scientologists have it out against any and all psychiatrists. It is part of their belief system. Yet this is a minor event in the history of Scientologist leaders conducting evil deeds. You can easily take a look at their history online and even the FBI is actively investigating the Church.

While I fully support anyones right to believe that they are alien ghosts, I draw the line at said religion perpetrating crimes against society in the name of their belief.

Just as it is wrong for someone to use terrorist bombings in the name of religion, the church of Scientology practises methods that can only be considered to be 'hurting others and of infringing upon their rights.'



[edit on 11/2/08 by Terapin]

What's absurd is that half this topic consists of bigbert81's posts.






Anonymous is of no threat to any group. If they ever tried to attack Scientology (or any other organized institution) seriously, they would be wiped out. 95% of them are teenagers who only do things for lulz and would betray "Anonymous" in a heart beat, and the other 5% who are well-versed in the hacking language will be taken down because there are so few of them.

The only reason they keep doing this stuff is because they keep getting attention. Ignore them and the 95% WILL go away. As far as the other 5% goes, let the FBI deal with them.



[edit on 2/11/2008 by SonicInfinity]

I also noticed some of the youtube accounts have been taken down or deleted, including video of theirs that have been deleted by Anon.

Surely wouldn't that be a great invasion of personal space and threat to the internet?

Basically, it seems like they're hacking everybody who states their opinion against the whole idea of movement, or if group doesn't like something, they delete it.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by TheoOne]

HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENTOLOGIST



How to talk to a Scientologist

Essay Copyright 2003, Michael Leonard Tilse, All rights reserved. No Scientology organization or entity has any authorization to copy, print or store this essay in any form, including electronic messaging systems, databases, hardcopy or as information stored on information storage and retreival systems. Anybody else can read it and print it and share it as long as it is in its orginal form, unaltered and with this copyright notice intact.

2 August 2003 Copyright 2003, Michael Leonard Tilse



HOW TO TALK TO A SCIENTOLOGIST.



I think people are interested in why a Scientologist stays one and why some leave, so I thought I would talk to you about it.



I was a Scientologist for 27 years. I gave them over two hundred thousand dollars of my own money. In fact, until earlier this year I still considered myself a Scientologist.



There is a lot of information that Scientology is destructive. Scientology has had to pay out millions of dollars to people they have harmed. Yet, as you may know, it is almost impossible to talk about these things with a dedicated Scientologist. I hope to give you some clues.



You might wonder how I decided to leave. After all, my parents tried to talk me out of it. My sister tried to talk me out of it. My friends tried to talk me out of it. None succeeded.



I wouldn?t listen to anyone who tried to dissuade me from Scientology. I kept myself from reading critical news articles or viewing television shows. I never read critical books. I thought it was all lies anyway. I would have defended Scientology to the death.



So there are a few things you don?t want to do when taking to a Scientologist.



Don?t talk to them about the weird stuff. Most Scientologists don?t know about it and are trained in the idea that finding out about it too soon will kill them. So just leave that entirely alone. It may freak you out and you may want to share it, but they will think it is a personal attack.



Don?t tell them it is not a religion. A Scientologist will instantly tune you out the moment you say that. After all they have subjective experience that is to them completely spiritual and religious in nature. To assert it isn?t is to be calling them a liar and denying their own experience.



Scientologists invest a lot of their life and almost all their money in pursuit of the Scientology total freedom. I want you to understand that. Take myself as an example. Almost all my friends were Scientologists. Almost all my money went to Scientology. Up to 20 hours a week were spent at the church studying or getting counseling, even when I had a full time job. My whole life centered around Scientology and I wasn?t even a staff member. For a staff member it becomes all consuming.



I felt that Scientology had saved my life. That I would otherwise have destroyed myself with drugs or suicide. I felt I had experienced personal insight into the nature of my own being through Scientology. It explained everything to me.



To tell me it isn?t a religion runs counter to my belief, but more importantly, it runs counter to my investment. If it is not a religion, then what did I do with my two hundred thousand dollars and my 27 years of association and all those hours of study and counseling? I would have to admit that waste and I?m not going to do that just because you state, "It?s not a religion."



Don?t tell them Hubbard was a con-man and a fraud and a bigamist and that almost nothing he said about himself was true. A Scientologist can?t believe that because he has been told that such statements are all lies. That the documents that show these things are fabrications by a shadowy conspiracy to destroy L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology and thus deny people the total freedom Scientology offers.



You?re in a he-said she-said situation. In fact, without careful research you might be presenting false information that the church has put on the ?net just so they can show their members how false it all is. So a Scientologist will be sure you are now a tool of the conspiracy, out to destroy Scientology. And they will not listen.



Don?t tell them Scientology doesn?t work. For a Scientologist, it does work. They know it. They will be able to point out one or many times where they had a success or it helped them through something or they felt better about themselves. They may have past life memories that convince them of their spiritual nature. They can have experienced wonderful things.



In fact, I still feel that some things in Scientology help. It is one of the hardest things to get over and understand and I am still coping with it. Because a lot of the writing that Hubbard did appeals to one?s better nature, to the idea of helping people, of attaining one?s dreams. It is very seductive and if you have any success at it, you will attribute it to Scientology.



But I?ve been doing some research. And one book is a book called "Hypnotism" written by G.H. Estabrooks in 1943. In chapter three he says: "There is a rule in Hypnotism that everything we get in a trance can also be obtained by means of the posthypnotic suggestion. Also that anything we find in either can be found in autosuggestion..."



So I am coming to believe that almost everything that occurs in Scientology that a Scientologist experiences and believes in comes about as the self-suggested result of a kind of auto-hypnosis. Everything that seems to work or be positive is attributed to Scientology, and everything negative is assigned to personal failure or lack of understanding of Scientology. After which there is a long bout of study to correct the matter, which again is a kind of auto-hypnosis.



And any outside challenge to that carefully maintained trance will result in greater and greater resistance.

So how Do you talk to a Scientologist?



First, you have to care. You have to care for them. Regardless of what you think about what they believe or do, you have to care.



Throw out any bigotry or intolerance you might have and be a caring person. Listen to them. Assure them you only want good things for them. Give them a safe place to visit or come to.



Many times Scientologists won?t leave the church even though they want to, if they have no safe place or people of unconditional trust to go to.



It is a huge personal event to leave Scientology. You have to somehow come to the decision you were wrong and all that money and time and investment is lost. You have to be willing to lose your friends, maybe even a husband or wife or children. Few people can do that when others are telling them they were wrong. And really, what a person has hypnotized himself into can only be undone by himself.



Tell them that if they want to come and see you, just call and you?ll pay their way. Don?t say "leave the church", say "come and see me." If they call, send them an airplane ticket or go pick them up. And when they show up on your door step, don?t be surprised, be supportive. Don?t eagerly use their leaving to present them with stacks of information critical of Scientology. You can ask them about it, but they have a lot to think about. It can take some time. Give them space. Let them ask for information or let them use the internet to find out for themselves.



If they want to talk, get them talking about it. Have them tell you their experiences, good and bad. Talking helps, especially when the person listening is nonjudgmental.



It is the internal conflicts I experienced within Scientology that broke the spell for me. So if I were now talking to a Scientologist, I would talk to them about these things:



Get them to explain about the powers of an operating thetan, the higher levels in Scientology. And then ask them if they knew of people on those levels getting sick or getting cancer or dying or just leaving the church. Get them to think how the reality they observe differs from what is promised. Even for people who have been in Scientology for years. Tell them you are confused; if these magnificent powers existed, how then could critics of the church continue to write or even to exist? Couldn?t a top level Scientologist just wish them away?



Get them to describe the ideals of Scientology ethics and justice and how Scientologists are supposed to be honest and straightforward. Find out if they know any Scientologists who won?t pay back loans, who have trouble with paying their rent, who have done a lot of Scientology but still seem shady or involved in schemes. If they have been around awhile, they will know some or will have heard of many such things.



Get them to explain "having to have before you can do" and have them tell you about what Scientologists are told they need to do to before management releases the next "O.T." levels. Then wonder, if it is so important that these levels be done to ensure the hope of the future, why are there things that have to be done first?



Find out if they experienced the misapplication of Scientology justice themselves. Get them to talk about it.



Find out what they think about Hubbard?s writings being revised over 15 years after his death. Does it make sense to them?



See if they will talk about their feelings that it is "just them" having trouble, but that Scientology really is good. It is very common for people to go for decades wondering privately why they are not getting the promised gains from Scientology while outwardly defending it to the death.



These kinds of questions and getting them to think about what they experienced and observed as compared to what they are taught and led to believe are a key to breaking the kind of spell they are under.



So, I think that you should talk with a Scientologist completely nonjudgmentally. Get them to talk about what they have observed themselves in fellow Scientologists, organizations, management and activities as compared to what they are given to believe from Hubbard?s writings and the promises of management. This way you open the door far enough that they will begin to read and compare the stories and experiences of ex-Scientologists with their own.



Once that happens, you can help them. But don?t push it on them. And then by reading actual documents such as Hubbard?s death certificate and the coroner?s report and toxic screen, the depositions in court testimony, police reports in the Lisa McPherson case, etc., they can begin to form a picture of what they were prevented from knowing. And choose.



So how do you talk to a Scientologist? With care and understanding. They found a reason to be in it. Give them the space and time and resources to find a reason to be out of it.



Michael Tilse (c) copyright Michael Leonard Tilse 2003

_________________



OPERATION CLAMBAKE INFORMATION PACK RECOMMENDED WEBSITES:

The official Church of Scientology website:

www.scientology.org



Websites for the Freezone, practicing Scientology outside the CoS:

www.fzaoint.net

www.fza.org

www.freezone.org



Alternate views:

www.xenu.net

www.factnet.org

www.scientologywatch.org

www.suppressiveperson.org/

www.spaink.net

www.snafu.de/~tilman/

www.narconon-exposed.org

www.studytech.org

www.modemac.com

www.truthaboutscientology.com

www.scientology-lies.com

www.lermanet.com

www.freedomofmind.com

www.altreligionscientology.org

www.xenutv.com





All quotations of copyrighted material herein fall within Fair Use guidelines.

Note: The Scientology organization is commonly referred to as the Church of Scientology. The reader should be aware that, in reality, global Scientology is a complex international legal structure of multiple corporations, some of which are nonprofit and some of which are not.



The terms "Scientology" and "Dianetics" are trademarks and service marks owned by Religious Technology Center (RTC), Los Angeles, California, USA. For a detailed explanation of Scientology's copyrights, trademarks, and other legal issues involving the names and symbols used by the organizations collectively known as "Scientology" and "Dianetics," see the Trademark Section of the Official Scientology Web Site.

I found that interresting and insightful so I brought it to share



Sorry I was unable to post that as a link but due to my workstation restrictions I was forced to eat up bandwith


DENY IGNORANCE
ANNONYMOUS IS LEGION

Originally posted by Im a Marty
I wrote to a person in the conspiracy field - Illuminati information etc... and this is what was said about the Scientology Protests.

The more coverage an issue gets, the more it grows. Look at cancer, drug and child abuse, etc. Lots of campaigns against them, yet has the growth of any of these categories slowed down? Of course not! Same with scientology or anything highlighted in the media which is largely controlled by the same people who control everything else

At last someone who understands whats actually going on.

If you look behind the scenes you will find OSA scientology directives stating to "create your own enemy...that way you control the enemy...and negative attention is also attention and has just as much power as positive attention".

reply to post by Skyfloating


Skyfloating! Yes its like, keep your friends close, keep your enemies closer. Divide and Conquer etc. Also in their eyes they can label who are 'Suppressives' - in their eyes to get them out in the open.

Also I was wondering if I could use this is a signature? I changed it a bit to make it shorter - and made it first person...

Scientologist: "We create our own enemy...that way we control the enemy, the negative attention has just as much power as positive attention"

Thx