If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

Originally posted by corsig
May I ask you in return why the churches on every street corner is more extravagant and grand than any lodge I've every seen?

Where does that money come from and does it sit well with you that the money used to build them is tax exempt.

Walk into any church and there is more gold and silver and art work that could help pay off a small world country debt.

Do you think the church takes kindly to nay sayer who oppose them?

Brush up on your history and come back with what you learned.

Thanks
Cory

Hey, I know you from PID forums. How ya doing? I have NEVER been in a church (i'm protestant), that was rich and beautiful and extravagant. Most were just buildings with windows and doors and floors and walls, with the bare necessities, such as uncomfortable pews, ratty covered hymnals that were in dire need of replacement or stapled together photocopies of worship songs, many didn't have baptismals and would do baptizing in some one's swimming pool, the closest lake or river. If they had enough money to have a bus, the bus was usually an older model and the pastorate was usually a small house next to the equally small building.

Now if you mean a Catholic Church, well that's a different thing altogether. That organization has been around for thousands of years and was the most powerful entity on the planet for at least 1700 years (and they inherited all the wealth of the pagan roman empire before them and all the civilizations they absorbed).

All this fussing about rich buildings leads me to think the gov is working up a forth to start taxing churches, which will result in wiping out most of the protestant churches but none of the catholic ones. Welcome again, to the Holy Roman Empire (or has it ever left? things that make you go, hmmmmm). Or to say it another way, "Babylon Ad Nauseum"

reply to post by New Age Bounty Hunter


Friend, come here:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Read thoroughly and you will find the answers to many of your questions.
Any questions not answered, feel free to ask.

As with many aspects of evil within societies , secret or not, its a small faction that pervert the true nature of these organizations.

Didn't the Illuminati supposedly infiltrate the Masons and subsequently the Free masonic leaders called for the liquidation of there order.

How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings.

I can quite safely say a Lodge that I have visited, Wharnecliffe Lodge No. 1462 meets in Penistone Town Hall and believe me theres nothing ornate, huge or elaborate about that.

The lodge room is nothing more than a room at the top of the building, a bit of a pain to access and rather spit and sawdust in appearance except of course for its layout and its old building feel and smell to it.

Dude, even half of the Masons don't know what it's REALLY about. It's not a conspiracy, it's another example of ignorant people being blinded by what they want to see. If you feel you need to be in a some special club to make sense of the world then you have issues that the masons aren't able to help with anyway. Anyone will the ability to read, research and use a mildly high IQ has seen through this years ago.

Yes not all masons are bad, I was one and have a few friends in the Army who still are, good guys. Sadly they know not what they stand for.

Originally posted by dark_matter06
Dude, even half of the Masons don't know what it's REALLY about. It's not a conspiracy, it's another example of ignorant people being blinded by what they want to see. If you feel you need to be in a some special club to make sense of the world then you have issues that the masons aren't able to help with anyway. Anyone will the ability to read, research and use a mildly high IQ has seen through this years ago.

Yes not all masons are bad, I was one and have a few friends in the Army who still are, good guys. Sadly they know not what they stand for.

Or perhaps some of us joined because they wanted to join a secular social organization that holds morals,ethics,and service to others in high esteem,where in an increasingly abrasive and rude society we could still find some likeminded individuals that still placed value in virtue.Perhaps some of us like the philosophical and historical aspect of it, and are proud of the heritage of some of the founding fathers of our country.Generalizing a group as having low IQ's and needing "a special club to make sense of the world" is far from fair or accurate.

Originally posted by tombangelta


Didn't the Illuminati supposedly infiltrate the Masons and subsequently the Free masonic leaders called for the liquidation of there order.

Not really. The leaders of the Illuminati joined the local Masonic Lodges hoping to find recruits there, but they had only marginal success. A lot of the local Masons in Bavaria were sympathetic to the Illuminati's cause, but disapproved of their methods.

It was the Bavarian government who called for, and liquidated, the Illuminati Order.

Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter


How come freemasons need such huge, and elaborate buildings, just to do blood drives and give to charities? I know that they do rituals and have meetings, but the local lodge here is as grand as the surpreme court building. Why the need for such costly huge buildings?

The only thing I can say is "it depends". Most rural Lodges, for example, are small and not very grandiose. However, larger metropolitan Lodges often own very big buildings to accomadate a large membership.

Why are freemasons excommunicated from the church?

The Roman Catholic Church long considered Freemasonry to be a society of rationalists and humanists (see the anti-Masonic papal bull "Humanum Genus"). The Church attempted to counter the Enlightenment, and saw Freemasonry as the embodiment of the Enlightenment.

Why did Hitler want them exterminated? Why were they concidered criminals in China, Russia, and other countries?

Freemasonry teaches that the only legitimate form of government is one which rules by the consent of the governed, i.e., Freemasonry champions classical liberalism. This was ideologically opposed to Fascism, Nazism, and Communism.

Why would anyone take blood oaths, to protect the secrets of some meaningless ritual, and secrets of the organization?

The penalties are traditionally, and were derived from medieval military oaths. It is presumed that they were adopted by Masonry in times of persecution.

And anyone who tells the secrets or attemps to tell, turns up dead or disappears.

Not at all. Most Grand Lodges, including the United Grand Lodge of England, in the world eliminated those things from the rituals many years ago; they're not even there anymore. However, most US preserve them out of tradition, but inform the candidate that they are symbolic only.

Who knows how many people who have disappeared or is missing thoughout history by the hands of masons. I know of one, Captian William Morgan, who screamed murder as he was kidnapped and never seen again, by the masons after he threaten to write a book about the secrets.

To answer "how many", Morgan is the only known one. Morgan himself never took a Masonic oath, but had only pretended to be a Mason (he was never initiated). Historians disagree on what really happened to Morgan, but there is circumstantial evidence that he faked his disappearance in order to sell more books.

If Masons really did commit a crime, we of course do not condone that behaviour, but denounce it. But there's more to the story than anti-Masons would have us believe. For example, Morgan's book didn't reveal any type of big secrets; for the most part, it was a plagiarism of a French book exposing Masonic ritual as used at that time in Europe.

It is more likely that the local Masons felt betrayed and financially cheated (Morgan had lived off of Masonic charity, and the local Masons had been responsible for feeding Morgan's wife and children, and paying their bills). When Morgan stabbed them in the back after all they'd done for him, I suppose a few of them could have went bezerk.

I have seen tombstones at the cemetery with all these masonic symbols, square and compass, but I have not seen any tombstones with the masonic symbol and any other religious symbol combined, like the Christian cross, or the Star of David. Why is that? They say they believe in God.

The square and compasses alone by themselves show that the deceased believed in God. Whether or not Christian or Jewish symbols adorn a gravestone would be his own individual decision, or the deceased's family.

Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Thank you to those who answered my questions, with patinces. My stepfather was become a freemason at the end of last year, and I do not know very much about it, except from what I have read on the internet. I know he goes to the lodge alot he says to study. I asked him what he is studying and he would not tell me.
I am very confused at all this and worried about all the secrets, and internet stuff about freemasonry. I did not want to offend anyone, just trying to know the truth. I do not want to live with someone if they are a bad person. I have never asked him about thses questions so I needed to ask someone. Thanks.

Don't worry about offending anyone here. :-)

In our lodge we have two types of regular meetings. We have business meetings a couple times a month that are really rather boring.

Then once a month the guys who are interested in learning ritual work have a 'Workers Club" meeting where they get together and study and practice for ritual.

All of the ritual work is done from memory and it takes a lot of studying to get it right. If you search Google for 'masonic ritual' there are a lot of places that pretty much tell everything there is to know about what people are studying.

When you join a lodge you go through three 'degrees'. Each one consists of a 'ritual' which is like a ceremony. After you go through a degree you have to memorize a catechism and repeat it exactly in order to go to the next degree. These are REALLY long and take a LOT of studying.

If you have any questions that you would like answered, you can U2U me and I will give you my email. I will tell you pretty much whatever you want to know, except for things like passwords that I promised to keep secret.

Half of the fun of masonry is learning and studying. It takes a long time to learn a lot of the speeches and lectures, but it is awesome when somebody has worked really hard to memorize a lecture and can present it to a new candidate from memory.

One of the best things about freemasonry is that it doesn't tell you what you must believe. The only thing that you MUST believe in is God. The rest of the lessons present you with masonic teachings and then each person decides how they feel about it and how to apply it in everyday life.

Originally posted by New Age Bounty Hunter
Thank you to those who answered my questions, with patinces. My stepfather was become a freemason at the end of last year, and I do not know very much about it, except from what I have read on the internet. I know he goes to the lodge alot he says to study. I asked him what he is studying and he would not tell me.
I am very confused at all this and worried about all the secrets, and internet stuff about freemasonry. I did not want to offend anyone, just trying to know the truth. I do not want to live with someone if they are a bad person. I have never asked him about thses questions so I needed to ask someone. Thanks.

Also, don't let masonry worry you or make you think your stepfather is a bad person.

If he does bad things or is a bad man it is not due to masonry. Masonry teaches you how to be a good person and how to help other people in need. It teaches you that it is important to believe in God and it is important to help people such as the elderly, the poor and children.

Honestly, very few Masonic buildings are "grand" by any means.. most are small, single story buildings that are honestly in a sad state of disrepair. It cost a lot to keep up with upkeep .. and many small lodges cannot afford new buildings or even extensive repairs.

I am fortunate enough to belong to a huge lodge, 7 stories tall at the local Masonic Center.. the building holds rooms for every branch of Masonry in this state. I say fortunate because I have a weakness for the grandour of things, and I love the immense history of the old building. Built in the 1920s, it still has all of the original murals, furniture (though its so old I'm afraid to sit in some chairs.. the couch in the library may eat you alive if you sat on it..) but honestly, most lodges are just small town lodges. The big lodges are typically a center point, like a Masonic Center which, if I am not mistaken, are usually owned by the Scottish Rite.

As for "why" we build such grand buildings.. well I believe it is as Fitz said earlier.. it is Human nature to build massive beautiful structures to honor something you love. Those who built any lodge did to the best of their ability and took great pride in them, because it represented a large part of their life. Its the same as why we build cathedrals and so forth, Humans will always strive to replicate beauty in stone.

I don't think it makes us "evil" .. regardless of where one meets, its the activities and studies that determine that. Then there is the perception of evil.. some people honestly think we are evil.. because we have very open liberal ideas in regards to religion (imo its like a dont ask dont tell policy) where non Christians are excepted (which is why Freemasons where excommunicated by the Church) which, shows Catholicism to be more evil then Masonry..

Anyways, probably just repeated what everyone else said.. but all the information the better for you. You uncle may not talk about "what goes on" because hes new, and does not know what is considered exceptable to talk about.. is sort of .. taboo to talk about the rituals. You can read it all online, in books and printed in a thousands locations.. but a true Mason wont talk about it. Out of respect.. not secrecy.

Take care, feel free to ask questions and check out that thread WuKung linked, good information in there especially about wwII events around Masonry (like.. 8 pages in or something).

If Freemasonry is not a secret society, then answer me why?

Hello, all. The Freemasons may well be a secretive society but they are far from being a secret society because everyone knows that they exist, and can speculate on the relative grandeur of their lodges, meeting halls, etc. I do think that there is more to the them than immediately meets the eye but, unfortunately, the Freemasons of today are a greatly watered down version of their forbears. Whilst their efforts are, indeed, laudable, they have become little more than a charitable and social organisation whose members have little or no real idea as to the true history, meaning, and significance of their rituals. Shame really.

A: Our lodge is in a former feed and grain warehouse and is a 150 year old plain brick building. Our refridgerator was purchased new in 1962...also the last time we painted ! We are humble yet proud.

B: I consider it a point of high Honor to be considered a criminal by the likes of Hitler and Stalin. Tyrants fear us because we stand for liberty, justice and the rights of man.

Originally posted by RUPERT THE FRIDGE
Whilst their efforts are, indeed, laudable, they have become little more than a charitable and social organisation whose members have little or no real idea as to the true history, meaning, and significance of their rituals. Shame really.

I disagree.

For me learning the history, meaning and significance of the rituals is a primary driver in becoming a better mason. I think one of the main points of freemasonry is to make you think about these things and decide for yourself what to believe.

I have yet to meet a mason who blindly accepts everything at face value. The simple fact that you have to actively seek out masonry pretty much speaks to the kind of men that masonry attracts.

If anyone would want to seek the truth and find out about history, meaning and significance I believe it would be a mason rather than a non-mason.

If nothing else I have become more skeptical and investigative since becoming a freemason than I was before.

My Lodge is so Grand it used to be a 60 Lane Bowling Alley!!
Honest to God!! Back in the early 1960's San Diego #35 was a bowling alley in Mission Valley, San Diego. The Lodge had outgrown its former building and they purchased this property and we have been there ever since.

Originally posted by dark_matter06
Dude, even half of the Masons don't know what it's REALLY about. It's not a conspiracy, it's another example of ignorant people being blinded by what they want to see.

Ah, so it is remarkably similar to being an anti-Mason. Yes?
And you can prove this as fact beyond a shadow of doubt how?...

If you feel you need to be in a some special club to make sense of the world then you have issues that the masons aren't able to help with anyway.

Ah, so it's similar to belonging to ATS, huh?

Anyone will the ability to read, research and use a mildly high IQ has seen through this years ago.

Because you possess such a 'mildly high IQ' you have fortified your research by attending many lodge meetings in various parts of the country or the world.
Or perhaps interviewing many members of the Craft.
Maybe even going to libraries and town halls and sifting through records.

Then again, maybe you just read some stuff on the internet and figured that they already did the thinking for you.

Such are some of the pitfalls of a 'mildly high IQ'.

Yes not all masons are bad, I was one and have a few friends in the Army who still are, good guys. Sadly they know not what they stand for.

You were one?
How did it come to pass that you left the Craft?
How far along did you go before you figured out...how did you put it?...'what you stood for'?
At what point was the proof of evil deeds so overwhelming that you just could not bear the responsibility of perpetuating them?
What dark and nefarious behaviors were brought to your attention?
And, exactly what is it that Freemasons 'stand for'?

If you make such comments, be prepared to cite your own research whenever possible to back up your claims.

Originally posted by wu kung
If you make such comments, be prepared to cite your own research whenever possible to back up your claims.

PLEASE NOTE!

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As such, commentary such as "If you make such comments, be prepared to cite your own research" is not an appropriate demand in the spirit of collaborative and speculative discussions.

reply to post by SkepticOverlord


Okay, fair enough.
Although in my own defense, it is rather difficult to stand idly by and have someone make such comments as those.
Claiming to have such insight is not speculation, it's borderline libel.

If I crossed the line, I apologize for my statements.
I will not, however, apologize for how said statements made me feel.

Often times, we defend the craft because we love it.
And, often times other attack the craft because they don't know, don't care or are trying to start trouble.
It puts us in a rather tough situation.
And yes, both sides perhaps take it too far.

Now I need to know what are we supposed to do when knowingly false statements are made.

Also, (besides the obvious ignoring, which pretty much negates the whole 'debate' aspect of this site) what are we to do and how are we supposed to respond when it's obvious that we're being baited?

Look, I've been up here for a while now and I have no intention of making...uh...larger waves than I normally do.
But it's really not fair to us who try to defend the organization that is very much a big part of our lives (and to some people's family history) and we get spanked for it.
Granted, some of us could use a bit of finishing school for sure, but most of us are your average, hard working joes.
It just happens to be that we're Freemasons as well.
I could go on about how our past Brothers have helped create the very freedoms we have and so on, but that'd be beating a dead horse.
If there are those who make inflammatory remarks, then we should at least be able to put rumors to rest and defend ourselves.
Isn't that justice?

Look, I understand...no more ganging up, but you (as in all of you) have to understand that most of us are writing replies simultaneously without any kind of foreknowledge of what the others are doing.
Not all the time, no.
But if the antis voices are heard and positions defended, then so should ours.

I love ATS, that's why I've been here for almost three (3) years.
I have no intention of causing any such dissension or damage to this site.
But, in my opinion, most of the problems come from people making knowingly false statements to further whatever agenda they may have, or to troll around and insight trouble.
Y'all have seen it.

Okay, before I start going on about Lucifer knows what, let's just all agree to do our best to keep things balanced.

Alright?

Originally posted by wu kung
reply to post by SkepticOverlord

 

Look, I understand...no more ganging up, but you (as in all of you) have to understand that most of us are writing replies simultaneously without any kind of foreknowledge of what the others are doing.
Not all the time, no.
But if the antis voices are heard and positions defended, then so should ours.

But.....but.....wu? We aren't conspiracists and ergo, we don't fit within the preferred demo of ATS. We have two options under such a dynamic:

1. Bow down to the power existing
or
2. Rear-up and be banned.

Originally posted by wu kung
I have no intention of causing any such dissension or damage to this site.

Nor I, suggestion to the contrary notwithstanding. But I think it'd do a disservice to the ATS membership at large to be 'yes-sir-yes-sir-three-bags-full-sir'.

Originally posted by wu kung
But, in my opinion, most of the problems come from people making knowingly false statements to further whatever agenda they may have, or to troll around and insight trouble.
Y'all have seen it.

Okay, before I start going on about Lucifer knows what, let's just all agree to do our best to keep things balanced.

Alright?

Been trying FWIW. Waiting for the proverbial hammer.