The Problem With ATS

Originally posted by Jadette
Actually, the reason I enjoy Above Top Secret is that we do have people with such critical eyes.

There's plenty of other sites for unbridled tales of speculation, for hoaxes and lies, for distortions and dime store astrology.

We're here to search for the truth. And extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Now I'm not saying that we don't listen to what people have to say, nor that we aren't polite. But I think we already have a strong ratio of noise here, and a little healthy skepticism will help filter some of that out. People shouldn't be surprised when they say their grandmother gave the neighbor boy the evil eye and his hair turned white, that they're asked to at least post a picture.

[edit on 8-2-2008 by Jadette]

I agree. Wild speculation is easy to dig up sometimes here - but very often the sources can be highly dubious at best, or just plain wrong. Personally I'd lend more credence to someone who's spent 20 years studying a subject matter, than someone who has just spent 20 minutes Googling the subject.

Sure, even scientists and experts get it wrong sometimes - they ARE human after all - and, yeah, sometimes they have difficulties thinking outside of the box too - but to dismiss them simply becuase they are 'orthodox' is a form of ignorance in itself.

And to try to 'prove that Bigfoot DOESN'T exist', as was stated by someone earlier here, is in my opinion, simply an innefective and counterproductive method of validation. If we follow that line of thinking, we become no better than the National Enquirer after a while...

J.

reply to post by srsen


Flagged + Stared.

Excelent job, if wo could only get people to put aside personal believes to fund the truth.

Thank you, good topic and important to ATS's evolution.

There are different people and different strokes. Each has their different desire for what they want to experience here.

Some come from other chat sites, less moderated, less important topics and just want to read and add their thoughts share recipes, talk up news or their day.

Some come from active sites like gamer or un-themed communities that are much more confronting and posturing, usually younger, less experienced mods allowing trash talk and other similar rant and slant.

Some have concerns and fears they want some understanding for like global issues, environment, government corruption and the like.

Some just love to read and listen to everything, just observing and learning.

Still others have found this is a good place to tell their stories, personal and profound experiences. Hoping for answers, understanding or at least empathetic ears.

Others want to feel they have some voice, some power in an overwhelming and seemingly hardened society. Some looking for answers and then others Imposing their opinions like edict and angry truths.

And it is different for each person.

But I have found through my short time here a profound potential for ATS on some important and needed types of communication from within "the people" themselves. Not the pasteurized packaged news we get from giant multinational corporate propaganda, news and media conglomerates who have associations that would control with money policy and influence what we should know and think, like consumer dependent industries who just want us to buy and buy.

But ATS, is leveraging the collective intelligence of the world to discuss the real problems, helping dissolve the illusions from our minds we are force fed, seeing more clearly the current events and many opinions and views that determine all our future. THAT is why ATS is getting more and more people each day from around the world.

We are bootstrapping our intelligence on this planet. That is the potential here for us. That is the goal of our evolution. To understand through us all.


Why does this work?

Who would not rather talk to a witness, or official directly and off the record, rather than read some news reporting organizations spun take? ATS is the place.

But we are seeing, this can't just be a discussion site as have been done and until now do little for us. ATS shows a need and a potential for important evolutionary growth in social networks. I think the Amigo's are working on this behind the digital curtain however and know this. So we wait.


We do have some jointly perceived problems, in some areas however that are expected and inevitable in any new evolution of awareness. Old patterns imposing themselves. The more controversial areas are the zones of concern for me.

We have problems accommodating a terrified abductee with nowhere to go and no one to talk to who will get trash-talked when all they want is to understand their experience and tell their story.

A government employee who knows truth, knows it must be told, but is horrified at what would happen to their family if exposed, and find ATS, only to be asked for their identity. (Can ATS be hacked by secret gov for that data they think?)

The problems are not as big as just complex. It will take some structure here with ATS to solve these. Give it time. In the interim we should try to educate each other to elevate the discussions out of the street fighting and poisoned culture we are fed in media and kids grow up with, as a description of their reality, regurgitated without a balance of wisdom or experience.

I work with engineers, scientists, astronomers and also UFO investigators, spiritual and paranormal people and subjects. I know how to communicate with them so understanding results. My biggest problem here is isolating an interesting OP from derogatory slams, opinionated pretense and flatly insulting attitudes.

Somehow there is the conception that ATS is the Debunking capitol of the web. Rather, it might be better to see it as the truth seeking capitol of social networking. The glass is half empty, or half full. The attitude can flavor the water, make it bitter and drive people away, or sweet and draw more in.

ATS is where we can find some truth! Not prove hoaxes. Thats counter productive. Focus on truth and you get more truth. Focus on lies......

Those too angry to listen, or, to power hungry to let someone talk, should find another place for themselves. We need educate, reason with or last ignore bad or uneducated behavior. Suggest ideas to help ATS and do our best to make this intelligent discussion, not slap-chat.

ATS is the future. Some of us see this and hold great hope. We the People will know ourselves, love ourselves and control our destiny.

Be nice, be Good, Be one.

ZG

Well what can I say?


Philosophy and science from people like Aristotle, Plato and Einstein were based on questioning EVERYTHING. If we took everything as gospel we would be a very stunted society. Even in today’s scientific society if someone makes a claim it is (and should be) critiqued and questioned and in some cases (yes) slammed if it is baseless and ridiculous.


We generally socialize with people everyday (this is life) sometimes we meet nice, cruel, intelligent, stupid, calm, crazy and all sorts of other types of people. If you are talking with people about a topic some people might agree, some people will not, some will give you a “pfft” and walk off and other types of reactions.

ATS is just that but in a Virtual ecosystem that is moderated. So in a sense a much safer environment then real life by excluding a lot of nasty things such as swearing, racism etc.

As a previous poster said that if someone claims that GOD is a spaghetti bog monster that is waiting for 2012 to devour the world, or someone who claims to have invented free energy, or believes that we are in for all out World War III in 2 days time then that person should be ready for the onslaught under said ATS conditions.

If someone wants proof, evidence, a link to said claim followed by “ how did you come up with this ridiculous idea” don’t go running and crying to the MODS because you obviously brought it on yourself.

With the amount of people on ATS we should have Engineers, Psychologists, Lawyers, Military Personal. We also have extremely gifted and intelligent researchers and scholars on all sorts of alternative topics so be ready to be questioned and defied and in some cases yes debunked.

If you have a problem under the ATS conditions talk to a mod or make a complaint because we all know there are hoaxers and people who just like to bully people but if you want to post something but are not ready for the ATS community to respond in kind, then don’t post.

We are all adults here, this is not preschool, it is life and a social community full of individuals that have a passion for the alternative.

I personally say Great Job to the CEO’s MOD’s and ATS community as a whole for bringing this website into fruition.

Originally posted by mrwupy*snip*
It takes enough guts to know your going to get slammed by those that disagree.*snip*

*snip*They have only promised civil discussion about the events taking place in the world.*snip*

I can only speak for myself here when I say that I don't exactly consider "slamming" someone as being "civil", but something tells me that I'm not the only one here who thinks that way.

If you disagree politely thats entirely fair. To "slam" someone simply because you have some kind of bizarre anger control issue over a viewpoint you dislike is entirely out of order and is entirely the problem with this whole forum. And yes you CAN insult someone politely, and NO it's not any less wrong.

I really don't mind if someone really rips up my theory, so long as they aren't condescending and rude about it - I can even have a laugh at my silly mistake. Even if it is utterly stupid and I was utterly wrong - maybe there was something simple I overlooked, maybe I got a bad description off some idiot in the street and maybe in my offline life I teach theoretical physics at MIT. Just cut people a break - "we've dealt with so many idiotic theories and we're jaded" is not an excuse. We're human, we make mistakes.

Dittos srsen!

We live in an age where documents, photographs, video, & audio evidence is so easy to manufacture; we must find another way to offer proof. Or is it that we now live in society that nothing can be absolutely proved and that all we can offer circumstantial evidence?

I have personally witnessed and experience phenomena that others say can’t happen because of the lack of science to fully explain these events. Yet I have to believe what I have seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears, and touched with my own hands. I am now of the belief that real truth is only where facts meet faith.

In any case, forums and blogs like these are not the place to prove and convict anything. But they are a great place to discuss ideas, invite constructive criticism and healthy skeptism.

If anyone should be ridiculed here, it is the pseudoskeptics who are here only to mock others and not contribute to our quests for the real truth.

reply to post by ZeroGhost


Beautifully said, honest and heart felt.

Rockpunk,

Good point - good solid debating is great and still remains one of the strong points of ATS.

But it can and does get ruined when a debate goes from being about searching for truth and turns into a debate about who's smarter and who can shoot the other guy down.

I guess thats one thing that spawned this thread - i miss having good educated debates which dont turn into elitist 's and sarcastic 's...

Yeah the quality of posts in ATS are, in the main, the best on the net, but yeah its some of the accompanying attitudes that blows them.


Mikesingh,

hey mate, yeah i agree with you - diversity is a great thing and something which is yet another string to ATS' bow.

It all comes down to respect at the end of the day. If we all respect eachother everything else follows.


MuLongQun,

Just wanted to say that some of the best threads are when people have to go through the ATS onslaught or gauntlet - a majority of the time when presenting a UFO clip or similar.

This is one of ATS' strongest points - the ability to debunk a clip or picture in record time. And i love watching it in action.

The only thing that isnt good is when someone gets flamed for presenting something in good faith. By the end of the thread the OP has been made a fool of and everyone moves on. Once again - it comes down to respect.



And just for the record, despite this thread, ATS is still my favourite website!

Hi Srsen

Good point, hope everybody open their minds

reply to post by srsen

OK so your really complaining that this forum is negative everything and to comply you are being subjected to proving the adverse or agreeing to add something to what is yet covered in a post. I see your objection plainly this is how it is and its what makes it so interesting. Egotistical behavior would be found almost everywhere. The news media reports how they wish to, they don't just spell out the facts as much is to often to much and skip the facts and lure the reader into the same trap, being a judge has a round of both predestined measures. I thought you were directing us to the facts of the pages which I have problems with in copy/paste and I hate doing lots of pages with all those empty lines and having to search to remove lines that are obviously not necessary to archive but sometimes I just have to see it from the likelhood that its iratating me to see these lines. If this stuff is necessary by the ATS rules they should create a separate table so it is not affecting the body of the posted messages, one copyright & useage should be enough not every post that is irresponsible. Framing would be OK to manage each members information so that a copy/paste of the page would pass over it without copying it, The same is true if you go to save the entire page as a text file, it is truely a mess and not pleasant to read or delete all the mess not relevant. But that is how some folks confuse the open mind, they don't care what is on their computer and want all the words regardless. I'm just bored stiffless and can't imagine why anyone wants the certain things displayed. If I had a way to make a image on a server it would have a message number and everything about the user in the image and then only one set of lines would copy/paste and theres the message post to read without all the junk between postings. Truely irating to come to this site and experience this each time I want to post something or read other postings. Grasp it and ask for someone to rewrite the sites script so to change the display. So if a post appears it has to be by a member or administrator, what does that matter anyways.

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EVERYTHING AT THE TOP OF A PAGE IS IRRATATING....
Try a copy/paste yourself to notepad and see what all you get. Is that irratating or is it irratating, now think if there are 20 or more pages of this irratating phenomena to encounter. To much junk on pages, add the irratating Ads and presto it is irratating. Like keeping a dirty house dirty.

EVERYTHING AT THE BOTTOM OF A PAGE IS IRRATATING....
Theres so much you cannot even post it to a topic to post the message as only 4000 characters are allowed, what ever happened to TRUNCATED MESSAGE management? Its dirty pages no doubt.

[edit on 11-2-2008 by OoTopNotchoO]

reply to post by OoTopNotchoO


Soooo... from what I'm reading in your opinion the problem with ATS is the page formatting? I'm sure S.O. and Simon would be glad to look into that... just create a complaint/suggestion from your memcenter.

There is not much I can say without repeating the posts of other members.
Great thread. All I need to say.
Starred and flagged.
For having the guts to post it.
AccessDenied

well. my other thread got locked. it's alright. i'm all for it. here's my complaint. sorry for the copy and paste. didn't feel like tying it all over again.

Recently, there have been many attacks against Christians. Also, lots of debunkers and people who just post to prove you wrong or keep you quiet. Basically, many theories are discarded, Alien and UFO threads are irrelevant without any video or other proof. Others don't believe in demons or the cat people race. The problem with that? well, I came here to discuss these things and it has been fun. Heck, I tried to prove the existence of god and was shot down on the first day. I don't know what to think anymore, but I think there are some users out there who only sole purpose is to track your posts and prove you wrong. I don't know if they are people from the government or just regular people.
I think there is a movement to oppose everything. oppose the existence of mysterious topics. for example, All theories about 911 are debated to no end and after reading the thread, you start thinking the OP is a nut, based on the comments by other users. And whenever someone is close to the truth, they are soon labeled ANTI(something). Unamerican or whatever else. most people also concentrate on getting personal with a user and begin to use his past history to make him look like a nut. Now, I am not saying that I had that experience. I'm just saying that I have observed these relations between users in ATS. Today I was thinking. what the point of trying to prove something that you can't see? why all the back and forth talk if no one believes you anyway? it's like trying to break a coconut open with your toe.
Does anyone else believe that there are users who's only purpose is to attack and scare others away without adding anything good to the thread?

There is not a problem, this is human nature, OH that could be the problem,

Originally posted by jedimiller
I tried to prove the existence of god and was shot down on the first day. I don't know what to think anymore, but I think there are some users out there who only sole purpose is to track your posts and prove you wrong.

well, perhaps the problem is not other people, but your own approach, and the types of things you try to "prove." For example, proving the existence of god may have been a bad choice, seeing how countless people have been trying to do that since the beginning of history to no avail. Also because:

www.merriam-webster.com...

Main Entry:
1faith Listen to the pronunciation of 1faith
Pronunciation:
\ˈfāth\
Function:
noun

(1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof

In this case, it appears M-W is "against" you too. It's unfair to blame ATS because you are sensitive, or choose poor topics to debate on. I can immediately recall a thread where you were trying to convince people that DVD was better than HD or something, and started citing all types of bogus information. It's not like this is something new, right?

[edit on 12-2-2008 by scientist]

ego driven.......yes, yes, yes. unfortunately, other member posts are completely overlooked, hense, the ignore button. Depress it enough times and the thread becomes a pissing match between a few. Only thing gained out of a pissing match maybe a few points to buy at the ats store.

Here's my big beef with ATS. The slogan "Deny Ignorance", yet letting it run rampant. I'm not talking about wild conspiracy theories, big foot, aliens, or any of that other stuff. I'm talking about things that people SHOULD know, but don't.

My personal peeve is people who say "You can't prove a negative". Yes you can. In fact, high level mathematicians do it all the time. It goes something like this: Assume A (the negative) is true. If A=true, then B. If B=true, then C. Since we know that C can NEVER be true, we know that A (the negative) can never be true. That's a little simplistic, but you get the idea. Negatives can, and are, proven all the time. If we had high-level "mathematics professors" like some claim, then they would know that.

Second is the claim "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". This is not true, but merely something that, through repeated claims, people have come to believe. Extraordinary claims only require PROOF. Think this is B.S.? Ok, then. Where is the "extraordinary proof" that E=MC^2? There *IS* no "extraordinary proof", merely proof. And yes, when it was first put forth, E=MC^2 was an extraordinary claim, which is acknowledges as merely ordinary today.

Third, is the "debunkers" who DELIBERATELY say that you have stated something which you haven't. I saw this in a thread I was participating in recently. I repeatedly (2 times in my first post, 3 times in my next post) stated something along the lines of "I don't know if this guy is honest or a fraud, but he said 'Y' would happen. 'Y' has only happened X times (a low number) in all of recorded history. 'Y' happened several years after his prediction". I went on to say that this was a pretty big coincidence. What was the response? (paraphrased) "Oh, so you believe (said guy) was who he claimed to be? We've already debunked that!"

Fourth, DELIBERATE misrepresentation of the facts. In the above example, I said that (said guy) had been right AT LEAST ONCE, and gave the example. The reply was (paraphrased) "This guy has never been right, ever". I am like "WTF?!? I just SHOWED you an example of where he was right. How can you say he has NEVER been right?" It was a deliberate misrepresentation of the facts to make the responder to my post look correct, when in fact he was wrong.

Fifth, atheists denying that their lack of belief in a God(s) is based on anything other than FAITH. C.S. Lewis put the argument much better than I ever could (in "The Absolution Of Man" for those curious), but his proof is summed up as "Atheists cannot, with internal logic that is consistent, claim that there is no God. To know without a doubt that there is no God, you must be God." Agnostics have a valid LOGICAL argument that there is no way to know if there is a God or not, but atheists cannot have a LOGICAL argument that they KNOW there is no God. Therefore, the atheist's belief (for that is what it is) requires just as much faith as to believe in God.

As an aside, what I mean by "internal logic that is consistent" is thus: What do the angles of a triangle add up to? Did you say 180 degrees? You are both right and wrong. The answer is.... it depends on the triangle. If you are talking planar geometry, the answer is 180. If you are talking about Euclidean geometry, the triangle's angles can add up to more than 180 degrees. They are both right. Both planar geometry and Euclidean geometry have INTERNALLY CONSISTENT LOGIC that allows for those differing answers. Internally to (in other words, if you ONLY consider) planar geometry, the angles will always add up to 180 degrees. Internally to Euclidean, the angles can measure 180 degrees or more.

The issues on here boil down, IN MY OPINION, to 2 major issues: 1) People believe they are actually smarter than what they really are, and 2) People fail to use common sense.

Here's a perfect example of #2. I have seen people claim that UFOs aren't real, and have "rational" explanations (leaving out, for the moment, whether they are extra-dimensional, extra-terrestrial, or merely terrestrial). Such explanations are sometimes jokingly called the "Light from Venus refracting on Swamp Gas Theory" (culled from the Movie "Men In Black").

Consider when a Police Officer sees and reports a UFO. Now, assuming he's not lying, is his report going to be an accurate representation of what happened? Are his details going to be accurate? A great part of a Police Officer's job consists of writing CORRECT details out in a report, so that a year down the road, 12 people (a jury) will be convinced that what he said and wrote down is a true and accurate representation of what actually happened. The same can be said with Airline pilots. Their job is to BE COGNIZANT OF AN AMAZING AMOUNT OF INFORMATION AT THE SAME TIME. And, being a frequent flyer, thank God they are good at their jobs. Considering what they have to be aware of when in control of an airplane, I think that their statements regarding UFOs can be relied upon. This is true ESPECIALLY when they are in control of an aircraft.

Common Sense is also lacking when 10 or 20 people report some weird or amazing thing that defies rational explanation. People immediately dismiss it (the "extraordinary claims requires extraordinary proof" fallacy?). What's funny is that if those same 10 or 20 people claim to have seen guy A shoot and kill guy B, but there was no other evidence of said claim, no one would have a problem with sending guy A to prison for life, or giving him the death penalty based solely on the testimony of those 10 or 20 people. Common sense tells you that if those 10-20 people's claims are good enough to put a man to death, they are good enough if they claim to have seen Grey's throwing a pool party in the neighbor's back yard. (exaggerated claim for effect).

What really cracks me up is that the "debunkers" and "skeptics" (who aren't really skeptics in the traditional sense of the word) who commit ALL KINDS OF LOGICAL FALLACIES are the first to trot out "Deny Ignorance"! "Take the 2x4 out of your eye brother, then you can remove the splinter from mine." Apparently, their claim of "Deny Ignorance" doesn't extend to knowing what a true skeptic actually does.

So, we have learned at least two things, kiddies: 1) Negatives CAN be proven, and are done so all the time. and 2) "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof" is a logical fallacy.

reply to post by jedimiller

it seems like the cynics you mention as making it unpleasant at times to start a thread do not understand what either the words civility or decorum actually mean.

can only guess that we all think our own behavior is normal because all our friends talk the same way ?for example we have neighbors on 1 side of our house that in the summer get out on their deck---they are 55 or there abouts--when the 24 year old son comes to visit with his family--every second word out of his mouth in front of his parents and own children is the crude form for having sex------he and his parents apparently think this is normal "civility and decorum."


myself i don't mind if someone disagrees with me---but it would be nice to be told in a pleasant manner or at least be ignored

Originally posted by sir_chancealot
Since we know that C can NEVER be true, we know that A (the negative) can never be true. That's a little simplistic, but you get the idea.

Even with the simplistic trick of adding the "C can NEVER be true" rule in order to make the equation work.....it still doesn't prove a negative....it proves a "not"....We know there is an "A", a "B", and a "C"...and we also know what they are not. In the real world, can we know what they are? I think too many people would say...."that's ridiculous, of course we do!!" And this paragraph will probably be flamed.

And that's a problem I see over and over again. No real discussion, no ideas actually tossed around.....Offer a counter position, or question some aspect of an idea, seek some clarification....and what do you get? Nothing in most cases. Sometimes a rehash of the original position.....like, ya didn't get it the first time......or a non-answer; simply more links, quotes, snips, whatever, that do nothing to address the earlier concern. Or the greatest copout ever...."you're just not open minded enough"....I won't even mention the bizarrely twisted logic and arguments encountered everyday...( oops, I did ).

In a way it's unfortunate that ATS is becoming known and used by more and more of the masses......it will, by virtue of the law of averages, reduce the perceived quality of the posts.....and the quality of the exchanges. I've had very few real, good discussions on these boards....I can count them on my fingers.

reply to post by musselwhite


the ignore button---yes i have filled it up to my max of 10 regulars.

i don't want to label anyone as a "foe" however since its the only "ignore" option left---that red bar across the top of the screen name is a heads up for me to not stop while scrolling down the pages.

ignorance some times is bliss?