The Problem With ATS

reply to post by srsen


I am honestly saddened that the OP is suggesting that those good at their arguments should cease debating to the fullest extent of their ability to "be nice" so to speak. As long as it is in a civil matter.

But just because some people feel they are inept to arguing their points to the degree as someone else, then I am sorry but you simply lost the debate.

You can still add your words. People may or may not read it.. depends on the VALUE you bring with your words.. but to say people are "competitive" in their debating and that THAT is the "problem with ATS" then you are sadly mistaken.

Post a hoax, and watch how fast it dies.. because as a place to deny ignorance, if you post something outlandish, crazy, off the wall.. you had BETTER be able to back it up.

The only problem with ATS is the rising uncivil attitudes of users not the quality of posting.

I don't know. There's just something very odd about the direction things take at various intervals. Like the influx of reptilian videos, all debunked, which lead to the topic of reptilians being put into Skunkworks. I've seen a few examples like this: Release a bunch of nonsense, with the occassional real example tossed in, then call for the whole thing to be trashed on the premise that it's just nonsense. In this fashion, serious topics for discussion are tucked away in some obscure place where no one goes to read them anymore, effectively eliminating the entire genre.

That's not denying ignorance.

I see something like this as an example of controlling what the public can view for consideration. It's a form of elitism and the same mentality that has caused so many problems in world history. Yes, the establishment is frequently right. No, the establishment is not God and therefore is going to be wrong, as well (and maybe just as often as being right?!).

With that being said, if this is the trend, no amount of being kind and not ego-driven is going to fix it, because you can just as easily kill with slow working poison as with a bullet.

We struggle to even get our viewpoint on the platter. In the years I have been here, I've only made a handful of my own threads (maybe 5 at the most), primarily because I have a limited energy reserve and realize how much time and effort would go into doing the subject the kind of justice it would deserve in a place such as this, where everyone's wrong unless it says so in the official guide, word for word, making it nearly as bad as any other example in world history, where the establishment plays at the purveyors of truth and everyone else is an idiot.

No, I don't think the OP's vision will ever arrive here or anywhere else there are humans with agendas that they are convinced must be fulfilled at the expense of as many people and truths as necessary.

I have to say that I think it's about time that these issues were aired here.

I have been reading this site avidly over the last few years, but never have much to add to some of the superb threads started on this site. Recently I have noticed far too many recent subjects immediately dismissed due to simple things, such as poor spelling and grammar.

Einstein was a dyslexic, if he wished to publish his general theory of relativity in this day and age, on ATS, would it simply be dismissed due to his spelling!?!

Don't get me wrong, I love this site as much as anyone, it is a conduit for freedom of belief and the ultimate example of free speech. It nows seems though, unfortunately, that too many other members cannot simply discuss and improve the limts of our knowledge.

Deny Ignorance, but don't deny others their belief!

Peace out!

Well brought out srsen! But remember, it takes all types to make this world! Imagine a debate between Republicans and Democrats sitting across the table. How's that going to turn out on a subject like Iraq? Pretty hot, what? Apart from frosty glares and snide titters that are visible, what goes on in their minds could be most amusing.

Like, "That bloo$y SOB! This asswh&^% doesn't know what the heck he's talking about!!" Or, "Ha, Ha! Look at his mug! He's screwed!! He's stuck for an answer! Up sh!t creek without a paddle! Whooo!" Etc, etc! And all this whilst having a poker face!

But here we have guys who are a gazillion miles apart needing to express their feelings in a faceless environ. They need to be heard to prove they're smarter than the next guy.

Let's face it. You can't stop this. It's human nature! So let's instead rejoice at the diversity here on ATS!

Cheers!

Asking for evidence can not work both ways.
Can't really believe in bigfoot if it isn't proven NOT to exist.
If you want someone to believe something then YOU are the one who has to find proof.
I agree that we are here to wake up people and tell them the truth but we can't just believe every single thing.
Have to work hard to reveal the truth

Originally posted by Rockpuck
I am honestly saddened that the OP is suggesting that those good at their arguments should cease debating to the fullest extent of their ability to "be nice" so to speak. As long as it is in a civil matter.

But just because some people feel they are inept to arguing their points to the degree as someone else, then I am sorry but you simply lost the debate.

I don't think that that is what the OP is suggesting, much of ATS is unsuitable for debate in my opinion and much debate is pointless, it goes nowhere. Debates should be left to the debating forum in my opinion and the very problem that I think the OP is stating is that people take a pro or a con position, becoming immoveable. It simply establishes perspectives instead of attempting to reach conclusions. The most exciting threads in my opinion are those where there is co-operation and an attempt to understand all perspectives. This should not be about winning, persuasion certainly but we don't need winners and losers. I think the majority of us are here because we want change, for that we need compromise. If we can't do it here and find common ground what hope is there in the wider world. We have an opportunity, however small, here to lead by example. Change does not happen, it is driven.

Just lately there has been so much of this cyclical debate and it has frustrated me beyond belief....I have seriously thought that there is no point in being here, it has become so unpleasant from my perspective, but, I have been here long enough to know that we can do better. I hope that once the joys of spring have died down and the testosterone stops raging, things will go back to normal, or relative normality, this is ATS after all.

I have enjoyed reading your thread OP and felt you did a good job making the opening statement. When a topic is hot and all hands are on deck it can seem at times like the debunkers are out in full force but I have experienced more than once an opportunity for myself to use this as a way to keep my own mind open to other possibilities. I have brought certain topics up for consideration and they have been without a doubt debunked. Yet it was not a strike against me, it was a correction in my assumptions. Some of the worst opposition have lead me to the sweetest connections and friendships. At the end of the day it does not really matter if you are right or wrong, just that you continue to bring forth what you can to the table.

I agree 100%. The arrogance is getting very thick on ATS. Many members now choose to be rude rather than helpful. Whether you're right or wrong, the "know-it-all" attitude is becoming a serious detractor in the quality of discussion in the ATS threads.
That being said, I love disagreement. It's exactly how everyone learns and helps the website grow.
But can't we all just be a little nicer to each other about it?

I think you are very right in your assessment of ego driven posts. I too agree that people should be posting logical informative thoughts, and not just trying to prove others wrong with endless links and half witty insults.

At the same time however, I often notice that these posts are the ones who garner large amounts of stars, especially in threads regarding more polarized issues (such as 'ol GB). Now if people are starring these posts in relatively large amounts, clearly we have a problem beyond ego driven posts themselves, one in which there is an audience that wants them, and there is a reward for posting one. That needs to change if you ever hope to see the end of ego driven beat downs.

I would like to take issue with one thing you said.

Where is the evidence that the Earth is NOT hollow?
Where is the evidence that the Government ISN'T corrupt?
Where is the evidence that bigfoot DOESN'T exist?
Where is the evidence that past civilizations DIDN'T once thrive?
Where is the evidence that secret society's AREN'T as evil as some say they are?

Asking for evidence can work both ways.

OK even on a conspiracy site, in any logical, reasonable, discussion/debate, the burden of proof 99% of the time lies on he who supports the idea unaccepted in the main stream. That is why it is a conspiracy thgeoryThat is a little ridiculous, and verging on ignorant.

As an example, if I believed that all the popes throughout the middle ages had secret nintendo wiis that they played on. If I demanded you either provide evidence that they didn't have secret wiis, or accept them as fact, I would look pretty stupid.

Evidence does not work both ways. You should not ask for evidence of a theory being wrong. It is up to the theory to provide evidence of it being correct, not for some random Joe to prove it is wrong.

Now this isn't always true, and the more polarized mainstream ideas can be discussed like this. That is b/c there is credible research and opinions on both sides. I am fine with asking for negative evidence on these highly researched issues and ideas. I just can't stand it when people throw out the most ridiculous fringe topics, and then start to flip and call me ignorant when I can't 100% prove that god is not a flying spaghetti monster.

Great debaters with lousy arguments V Lousy debaters with good arguments.

This is when it gets nasty, sometimes it's the great debaters that think that just because they are better at arguing then they are of course right! A bit like politicians I suppose, in fact some of the members on here remind me of politicians

you're wrong. where are you sources?! prove to me that ats is no longer a place for intelligent discussion

reply to post by srsen


Exactamundo star and flag for you my friend.
I am probly one of those that can't see past my own nose too but I see it alot as well.
Or my particular pet peev "You know nothing and are just sheeple if you accept the "official story"."
NRGH!

ATS is becoming too ego driven

Replace ATS with "Internet Communities as a Whole" and I think you are on to something.

Some people will live the bulk of their lives on the internet and being cool on the internet is almost as cool as actually being cool. In the previous sentence "almost" is used loosely. Its much like the people on XBox Live with the Achievement Points (which I call ePenis Points). Post count, Achievements, or ones E-Ego is nothing more than an attempt to validate ones life through vane objectives and motives.

Everyone needs to be as nice to people online as they would (hopefully) be nice to people in real life. Then again, maybe the fact that some people are mean in real life is why those people live their lives on the net.

I'll be your friend too.

Some folks debate to win. Only when the audience knows that the debate is meant as a competition, a show of debating skills, is that type of debate of value. Given important and controversial topics, sometimes important things of value can be learned by the audience and the debaters themselves during a competitive debate. A debate that is purely about winning is generally a waste of time, in my opinion. Some folks debate to persuade. That is appropriate when attempting to prove a case. It is inappropriate when the objective is to prove to others that one knows what one is talking about; ego gratification is another poor reason for debate. Time could be better spent on applying one's knowledge for the purpose of elucidating subtle and confusing details about a given topic, in my opinion. Some folks debate to create opportunity to humiliate those that they are in a debate with. I strongly object to this in a debate. Some folks debate to better understand what it is that they think they know. Coupled with debating to better understand what others think, these are the two best reasons to debate, in my opinion.

There are plenty of people who do not come to ATS to debate. They come to chat. They are not interested in understanding fine trails of logic or substance. They simply want to share their enthusiasm about a given subject. Simplified, they want to say, "That's fantastic!" Or, "I'm not impressed." They don't want to debate, they just want to talk. There are others who just want to deliver information that excites them, but they are not necessarily interested in debating the topic. The are more interested in what others think, rather than what they themselves think. Then there are others who have been around the block a few times -- or more than a few times -- who only want to share what they know. They will debate but that is not their primary purpose. Their primary purpose is to share information, and then to be thanked for it. Still, there are others who come here for company. They want to make friends or foes. For whatever reason, they need the space, this place called ATS, to communicate with others. For some its because discussing such topics in their homes is forbidden or difficult. No one that they know in "real life" is interested. So it's better to come to ATS, be anonymous, and discuss things, challenge others, and be challenged. They have a great need to feel validated in someway that is not provided in their day to day lives outside of ATS. There are also people here who are very serious and passionate about the topics that they choose to discuss. And for them having a global network of like-minded individuals is crucial for them to make any headway in discovering truths and solving age-old mysteries.

There are many reasons to come to ATS. I've only mentioned some of them. What is important to remember, I think, is that there are people behind every post that we read. Many will disagree with what we say. Many times meanings are lost in translation. Some folks have a better grasp of debating and/or topics than others do. Again, it is important to remember that the comments here represent the people who make them. It's okay to get emotional, that's what the smilies are for, but it is also important to keep that emotion restricted to conveying emotion, and not use it to disparage others. Likewise can be said for the use of debating skills. It's okay to be rigorous, analytical, and demanding, but use those skills to convey and obtain a better understanding of the the topic at hand, and of the intent of the persons involved in the debate. Try to understand the meaning of another's reply before responding; take as much time as needed. Otherwise, the entire exercise ends up being of little value to anyone. Even when a debate ends in disagreement, if the debate was a good one, the participants will have found a new respect for those who participated, and they will understand that they were pushed to consider more deeply what they previously took for granted. Folks who seek a better understanding of something appreciate it when that happens. This is why it's important to remain respectful, so that we might reach that point many times more than not.

reply to post by scientist

I wouldn't really call this a "problem" of ATS, but rather a characteristic. I've learned to live with it, although it does make me die a little bit inside.

I have to agree with you scientist. I believe the OP's "problem" is one that you have to realize is going to happen. When you put yourself out there, criticism, both harsh and constructive, are bound to happen. The best thing to do, IMO, is to learn to recognize who is really trying to help people learn the truth and who is here just to cause trouble and push buttons. After awhile, you really can tell the difference between the two.
Nonetheless, good thread. Starred and flagged.

I agree. I have read this site for awhile and made an account to finally post. I have seen people present an idea/concept/whatever and immediatly get attacked with "prove it". There is so much in the world that simply cannot be proven, other that take time to prove.

Bismark was sunk by the British. That is what I was taught in school. Is that actually fact? Can anyone prove it? Another suggestion is, the Germans sank it themselves. Can anyone prove it? No. So we 'default' to one side or the other. Roswell is another great example. No on can prove anything other than a weather balloon crashed, because official government documents state that. Now..what really happened? I can't say, but no one should "attack" me for saying nothing happened, or something did happen.

If I was a person who was timid and offering information, some knowledge that was amazing and the first few posters are calling me a liar, "police forcing" me to produce "evidence" of my claim right off the back? I think I would run away instead. If I expected "You have what? Really? Here, sit down, lets talk about it and see what you have." and instead I got "I doubt you do, sounds fake to me." (Reaching out my hand) "Give me all your proof now or get out!"...I think I would leave. I see it in high school students, I see it in adults. Even people who are just presenting a simple known truth, can't do it if they are confronted.

The information is here, but there is alot of ego/like fluff surrounding it that in some cases, just makes me close the thread and skip over it. I know I am not alone and it becomes a joke to people I know because of the attitudes taken by some. I would hate to have something, or someone, turned into a joke, because of another persons reaction to something. Einstein was a great example!

The problem is people are giving more opinions than facts- and in turn those opinions are causing disagreements which turn into debates about nothing!

Good topics are still here- but surrounded by pointless, ignorant topics alot of the time....

the quote here is "deny ignorance" well...apparently some of you aren't

There are an amazing amount of intelligent people, scholars, and theorists on here which is why I come here- theres tons of diversity and input which is fantastic. I still love the site- check it everyday.

I'll end on a high note- Ron Paul '08 \\// peace

reply to post by srsen


Great post Srsen! I completely agree. Some people thought that the sound barrier could never be broken, just as some people never thought computers would be in nearly every household in America. Maybe we as people just, generally, do not like change. Or maybe it is some deeper sociological issue. Who knows. But criticism does have it's positive sides. Most colleges and unversities have specific guidelines for what should be considered valid sources of information. This includes information being reviewed by peers and validated to some degree by those peers. But where people get in trouble with their beliefs is when they blindly believe that same information when our understanding of what is actually taking place can change rapidly.

Our scientific understanding of the world around us is not an exact science. Scientifically speaking we, as intelligent human beings, try to work together to acheive the most valid and/or likely data we possibly can. But as long as we are advancing into space and into science in general we are always going to learn new things. Not to mention the advancement of technology which can improve our ability to understand the world around us. Therefore, it is completely fine to call science "what we think we know".

The problem is that some people want evidence before they believe in one thing or another. But there is a big problem with this. The UFO phenomenon is one example. We know that alot of evidence is probably tampered with and/or hoaxed for whatever reason. But there are some instances of UFO sightings which cannot be completely explained by the current level of our scientific understanding. What photos are real? what videos are real? The point is that even with a wealth of evidence from the military, government documents, personal accounts of UFO's and alien abduction, etc.. Some people just aren't going to believe until a UFO lands in their front lawn and they can see for themselves..

But I can tell you this. When you do see the UFO phenomenon taking place with your own eyes (and it happened to me) you discover that there is so much that we simply don't understand. That means we should at least try to understand what is going on with the UFO phenomenon (as an example). I know that people just don't believe, but when you witness these things with your own eyes, you suddenly realize that everything you've been taught in science books could change in the blink of an eye.

Is it so hard to say it? There are just too many things about our world we don't know to say that our beliefs should somehow be more valid than someone else's. It's places like this that make it possible to seriously discuss such issues and, in some cases, debate them. We should try to be civil at least. Despite our differences of opinion.

-ChriS

"like a rebel with a mic in the hand" ATS is a great website. Could be cooler, but still one of the coolest alternatives.

The problem with ATS... well to me it's less about the bruising of ego whilst debating this or that, and more about the lack of openness and transparency when dealing with ATS disputes, suggestions, official board policy and direction. This is supported by a stomach-turning culture of sycophancy. Of course, that's just my opinion.