Police Illegally Seizing DNA from Drivers

Originally posted by biggie smalls
"I said its for your own good, so carry on before I shoot you."

You know, I have a hunch, just a hunch mind you, that they aren't going to be shooting people over this.

So those "#ing cops" sicken you, huh? If it rolls up a serial killer, I think it's a good thing for them to be doing.

Originally posted by Raist
Since when can you get an immediate return on the DNA collected at a traffic stop?
It is not going to matter if they actually pull the serial killer over or not, they just cannot get results back fast enough to matter. Unless they arrest everyone they stop and hold them until the results come back it matters not how many people they test.

Besides if they them have a name and address of the “killer” there is no guarantee that the name and address given are the right ones.

Basically they are storing the results for later crimes if nothing else. This way if a crime is committed they can run the DNA at the scene with DNA already stored on a data base. While this may not be an entirely bad thing it should be strictly voluntary.

DNA collected is not enough to be stored as it is destroyed in the test, the only thing that they could keep would be on paper or computer the results of your test.

Collecting DNA at a traffic stop is pretty pointless and a completely inefficient way to catch a serial killer unless they are stupid enough to stay in the spot that is given on their driver’s license. DNA results simply do not come back quick enough for this to work.
This is nothing more than compiling results for the public’s DNA for reference in future crimes.

Edit to add: Unless you volunteer your DNA it cannot be taken without a warrant by law.

Raist


[edit on 2/7/08 by Raist]

Actually I think Raist said it best.

There are no imediate results so what exactly is the point? Other than to fill thier database?

I'm no lawyer, and know nothing of that state's definitions of probable cause, etc.

But the Supremes have ruled in the recent past that your DNA is covered under the 4th amendment, as an exension of your "personal papers and effects" that are immune to unreasonable search.

They would need a warrant, unless their state law defines a "person of interest" as probable cause for an invasive search.

I would think this would be tantamount to demanding a blood sample without a warrant.

I strongly suspect that this is a SCARE TACTIC meant to flush out the rapist. A DNA test costs thousands of dollars, up to several weeks of waiting for laboratory time, and the expert witness testimony of the lab technician to be useable in court.

It's not like taking a preganancy test. Matching DNA samples is more like solving a crossword puzzle in Sanskrit; you have to explain to a jury just why it constitutes "proof" and could not be anyone else's DNA.

If you sued, you just might find that they had no intention of actually PERFORMING any thousand-dollar tests on your own personal Q-tip; they were just freaking out a guy they "knew" (but couldn't prove) was the actual perpetrator.
.

Originally posted by aTwistofReality


Let's keep in mind that this is during a traffic stop and they are not stopping traffic to swab everyone's mouth. They are probably doing this to save time and money instead of bringing every "person of interest" into the station, which they do have the legal right to do.

They do NOT have any legal right to arrest ( that is when you are taken to a police station against your will ) someone because they have an ' interest ' in them. That is patently ridiculous and you have no knowledge os the law, obviously. The cop's CANNOT legally grab citizens and haul them in for questioning; you have been watching too many old gangster pics from the 30's.

If they think that the serial killer is going to stay around driving and waiting for some cop to swab his mouth, you are nuts. He is far from that scene. This is all show and underhanded efforts to get the public cowed and compliant. the LAW says that before a cop can take a citizen into custody, they must have PROBABLE CAUSE ' to believe that the person is guilty of a crime. jusy because the killer has dark hair and weighs about 160 or whatever, does NOT mean that all men with dark hair that weigh the same weight as the killer are eligible to be snatched off the streets and swabbed or arrested..or taken downtown..or anything else.

If some cop asked me for a swab, I would refuse and sue them for civil rights violations oif they botherted me. This is Nazi behavior to the enth degree. If some cop wants my DNA they can spend the resources tracking me and following me and waiting for me to spit somewhere so they can go scoop it up. People who allow some cop to swab their mouths are like sheep waiting for slaughter; that cop may take that swab and put it in the wrong enevelope and you could end up in the electric chair, guaranteed.

Do you TRUST the COP'S?? My God, where have you been? Cop's will do anything to get a case closed, no matter who is really guilty. get a grip and tell them NO. There is NOTHING legally a cop could do if you say NO. It takes a COURT ORDER to forcible collect such specimens and without it the cop's can go whistle Dixie, which the Daytona cop's probably are anyway. No way, no how. Blatantly illegal.

Another problem with DNA sampling that is barely known about is the human chimera. They do not know how rare this is but there are known cases of people with two sets of DNA.
Apparently this happens from two embryos combining with in the first week of pregnancy.

You can read more about it here:
content.nejm.org...

And here is a link explaining about a case that speaks of needing a court order for your DNA unless you give it voluntarily.

www.news-journalonline.com...
From the article:

Zambrano said investigators had suspect Jerone Hunter's statement implicating Victorino, who was considered a suspect, so the DNA samples were taken but not forcefully.
"Inevitably, had he refused it, we would have gotten it through a court order," Zambrano said.

Raist

reply to post by benign.psychosis


People like you are the problem... not the solution. Read the Bill of Rights if you need help understanding the legality of this issue. This is illegal search and seizure my friend. And I can tell you that I am no seriel killer and I would tell those cops - "GET A FREAKING WARRANT!!!"

Originally posted by Kruel
So what happens if you say no? Get arrested as a suspect? And if so, would they (the cops) be within their rights to do so? I'm fuzzy on this subject.

NO!! No a hundred times!! If you refuse the cop will let you go. It is all bluff. They CANNOT arrest you for refusing. You have an ABSOLUTE RIGHT to refuse ALL contacts with the police, and to refuse to submit to tests or any other request. You always have the right to an attorney at all times before the cop's can do anything at all.

You CANNOT have your refusal to cooperate be used as a reason to hold you. There is NO reason to believe that your refusal was an indication of guilt. That is what they WANT you to think, but it is a LIE. You may have very good reasons for not cooperating, including religious, personal, privacy and others. you do NOT have to tell the cop why yopu do not want to cooperate. You NEVER EVER are under any legal obligation to give a cop anything that they ask for; If they ask, they are depending on bluff. If they had legal authority, they would show up with a warrant and take what they wanted, not ask for it.

If some cop demands that you comply, just call their bluff and say NO. Cop's are bullies and liars by nature, they do it all day long, and lying about your rights is the biggest subject that cop's lie about. Just say : " Officer, my attorney advised me to never do antything that concerns the police without him there". The cop will back off. If you fit the profile exactly and refuse, the cop may hassle you for a while longer, but if you stand firm and do not speak to them and do not cooperate with them, they legally MUST let you go.

Cop's must have evidence, not hunches, to make an arrest. No citizen can be ' taken to the station ' that is an old wives tale: If they take you in, it is an arrest, and you remain silent until an attorney comes anways. There is no special deals that cop's get because some killer is on the loose; some excuse always exists for taking our rights away, and that one works as well as any, better than most; thats why they use it!!

Hope this helped. The short answer: NO. No probable cause, no arrest. No court order, no swab. Done deal. Stand your ground and back em down!! It preserves our rights.

Originally posted by ATruGod

Actually I think Raist said it best.

There are no imediate results so what exactly is the point? Other than to fill thier database?

Like I said before, oh ye of politeia absentia.

They have the DNA of "ze killare" already. (ever seen pink panther? )

When swabbing people they will also get the license plate, driver's license /w digital picture, registration, and all the good stuff. If they find a match with the original DNA, they will have tons of leads to go by: area, car, picture, mannerisms, address, name, etc..

Besides, I don't know what that other guy is going on about. Modern portable DNA forensic matching kits can finish in MINUTES. This does not leave a lot of time for the killer to speed out of the county or state at 80 billion miles per hour.

More invasion of privacy enabling cops to harvest D.N.A. information. Clearly illegal for them to demand it without a warrant. Tell 'em to get a warrant or set you free. I will not comply with any request that violates my rights, whatever the reason. Why the Hell should I have to prove I'm innocent?

[edit on 2/7/2008 by TheAvenger]

reply to post by benign.psychosis


Get real. The killer only has to hunker down and wait. OR get on a plane, train or bus!! OR get in a private car as a passenger!! No need for 80 million mph, 55 will do nicely. The killer will never be caught this way. This is beyond lottery odds. Nice way to cow citizens and collect a lot of innocent people DNA though, which of course is the whole point of it all anyway, obviously.

reply to post by eyewitness86



That is just it; this is not illegal so long as people willingly give up their DNA.

If you refuse they would need a court order to obtain your DNA. They will not get that order over a basic traffic stop without some sort of reasonable doubt. No judge in their right mind would risk the law suit as well the police (unless they were really stupid) would not push the issue more than to ask and then say they could obtain an order.
And again it takes time for the results of your DNA to return there are no field tests for this.
Unlike the show CSI things do not happen that fast, they do it because it is an hour show and they have to catch the killer.

This story reminds me of one that is meant to spread fear to those who don’t understand it completely or to get more to hand their DNA over because they do not know their rights.

Again this DNA will do nothing but have a result that is placed in a state and nation data base for future reference to crimes. Anyone claiming anything else is either lying or fooling themselves. They are not collecting DNA to manipulate as it gets destroyed in the test leaving only results that can be stored.

Raist


[edit on 2/7/08 by Raist]

To me, this is outrageous. How can they require anyone to give them DNA without a warrant?

Are you telling me that they are able to do the DNA sequencing so fast that the drivers of the vehicles are allowed to leave? I though 24 hour DNA sequencing was considered the 'fastest' out there....

Something about this whole story seems fishy. More Science Fiction like CSI, than real life has to offer. I need more proof behind this possible propaganda.

No Offense.
DocMoreau

Apparently, now, one is not presumed innocent until they're charged with a crime!

Or, to put it another way, simply being in public means you'll be presumed guilty of a crime if you "fit the profile," until such time as you're charged with a crime, at which point the presumption of innocence will kick in.

There is also a lowered expectation of privacy inside of a motor vehicles. This "automobile exception" has been summarized by St. Mary's University law scholar Professor Gerald Reamey in "Reamey's Rule" as "never, ever, ever put anything in your vehicle that you do not want the police to see", although the Supreme Court's analysis is somewhat more nuanced.

Source | Wikipedia | Search and seizure

This maxim has now progressed to include one's own physical self and fluids?

The Fourth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution reads as follows:

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The search and seizure provisions of the Fourth Amendment are all about privacy. To honor this freedom, the Fourth Amendment protects against "unreasonable" searches and seizures by state or federal law enforcement authorities.

The flip side is that the Fourth Amendment does permit searches and seizures that are considered reasonable. In practice, this means that the police may override your privacy concerns and conduct a search of your home, barn, car, boat, office, personal or business documents, bank account records, trash barrel, or whatever, if:

* the police have probable cause to believe they can find evidence that you committed a crime, and a judge issues a search warrant, or
* the particular circumstances justify the search without a warrant first being issued.

Understanding Search and Seizure Law

So, apparently, if you simply operate a motor vehicle, you are now subject to being suspected of a crime so that law enforcement officers can trample under foot your Fourth Amendment rights.

One more tidbit:

Police officers are not required to advise a suspect that he may refuse.

Source | Wikipedia | Search and seizure

reply to post by benign.psychosis


You do realize that not just anyone can read DNA results right? So who is going to be reading the results? It takes training to do anything other than pull a sample when it comes to DNA otherwise there would be no use in a collage degree to get into the field.

Also please provide proof of a claim that DNA results can be done quicker than 24 hours. I would be most interested in seeing this type of things as well as most every police department in the nation.

Raist

reply to post by goosdawg


They not required to advise you of your right to refuse.

But if you do they must obtain a court order, call any judge, lawyer, or police chief and you can verify this.

Raist

02/05 Ron Paul - At the University of Washington
8 min - Feb 5, 2008
www.youtube.com...

We do not have to sacrifice one ounce of our liberty.

Originally posted by kozmo
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

People like you are the problem... not the solution. Read the Bill of Rights if you need help understanding the legality of this issue. This is illegal search and seizure my friend. And I can tell you that I am no seriel killer and I would tell those cops - "GET A FREAKING WARRANT!!!"

Authority as truth, eh? I see we still obey logical fallacies at ATS. Worse than that, it's authority to a skewed perception of that authority.

If you can say, "GET A FREAKING WARRANT!!!" so can the serial killer. He can do it over, and over, and over again. You are living in a fantasy world that is never going to come to fruition, my friend.

You like the bill of rights so much:

Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure. Ratified 12/15/1791.

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Read carefully.

The right of the people to be secure ... against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants [for an unreasonable search and seizure] shall issue, but upon probably cause ...

Yeah, keep reading. I'm backed up by the Bar Association.

If you think it is unreasonable to take a small swab of DNA from your mouth for a chance to find a serial killer who has killed 4 women and possibly going to kill more, then you have some ethical issues or are just a very selfish person. A warrant only gives law enforcement the right to an unreasonable search/seizure because of probable cause that a crime was commited. They have the right to a reasonable search and seizure 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.

Let's see, 4 lives and a potential for more vs. a swab of your DNA.

Tell me, who is the one being unreasonable?

An example, from the Missouri Bar Association..

Our forefathers, while sensitive to the sanctity of the home, recognized that there would be situations where entry to another's property was justifiable. Thus, the Fourth Amendment does not provide a perfect right to the inviolability of the home. Instead, it provides protection against searches and seizures which are "unreasonable." Neither in 1791, when the Bill of Rights was ratified, nor today does the amendment prohibit all searches of the home and seizures of property and papers.

... the requirement for a warrant is not an absolute one. The Fourth Amendment mandates only that all searches and seizures be "reasonable." There are many situations that the Supreme Court has interpreted as reasonable searches where no warrant has been obtained.

You need to stop getting legal advice from dissident conspiracy sites that have an agenda to trick you into being some fool who goes to court shouting "CAPITAL LETTERS!!!!" "IM A REAL PERSON!!!"

I think we are all a little too late aren't we?

How old are you?

Now, in your mind's eye, go back that many years.

Where are you?

Most of the time in the western world you now find yourself in a hospital.

You've just been born right?!. They take your blood!!! If not there and then, most certainly within your first 12 weeks.

They all ready have us. All bottled up and filed away - assuming they want our DNA that is.

This is the most efficient, effective and secretive way to collect the population's DNA - it would not be logical to do it any other way.

The police are probably just looking for a killer. Mundane I know but it is their job right?

[edit on 7/2/2008 by skibtz]

Originally posted by Raist
reply to post by benign.psychosis

 

You do realize that not just anyone can read DNA results right? So who is going to be reading the results? It takes training to do anything other than pull a sample when it comes to DNA otherwise there would be no use in a collage degree to get into the field.

Also please provide proof of a claim that DNA results can be done quicker than 24 hours. I would be most interested in seeing this type of things as well as most every police department in the nation.

Raist

You do realize that police officers are not stupid pigs who can not be trained in anything, right? Jesus, you are being completely unrealistic here. I take it you have no clue on how to read DNA, so why don't you google it, and then you can come back on here and tell me, "Shucks! I didn't know it was that easy!"

You also realize that computers are "smart" enough to display how accurate a match is? What time are you living in?

From 2007, the size of a suitcase:
25-minute test:
www.pinktentacle.com...

From 2008, the size of a childs pinky:
15-minute test:
www.sciencedaily.com...

I've seen them down to 3 minutes. All you have to do is a quick google search.

I am continually surprised by how easily people are willing to give up their freedoms and privacy in this country.

This week at work several of us had our names drawn for a random drug testing. I dutifully peed in the cup and forked it over which is wimpy enough. There was one lady there who had on a t-shirt under her scrub top. We all had to empty our pockets and take off our lab jackets, etc. but the tester looked over at this lady and casually said, "Maam, you'll need to take off your shirt." She looked a little confused but then obediently stood up in a room full of co-workers she barely knew and started to remove BOTH shirts! The tester stopped her just in time saying, "just the outer shirt, please." LOL. Good grief! Just because she understood some total stranger authoritatively tell her to to take off her shirt she was willing to disrobe in public on some guys say so. Man, what a bunch of sheep we've become.

So now we are expected to randomly submit to DNA testing on some guy's say so? If we don't practice standing up for ourselves now while we still can, it won't be part of our nature or habit to do so when it becomes much more important to do so.

Maybe next year it will be: Ok, everyone with brown eyes line up single file, board this train in an orderly fashion, shackle yourselves in as comfortably as you can and remain quiet as you ride to the crematorium, at which point you will disboard calmly, divest yourself of all possessions and clothing, step into the crematorium without protest or comment. Spent your last few moments in quiet reflection and please be patient; we've been having trouble with the pilot light. This is for your safety. We don't want you to suffocate from an improperly lit fire before you burn to death. Thank you for your cooperation.

Just say NO, people.