Sharia law in UK is 'unavoidable'

reply to post by poet1b


What, pray tell, is "western culture"? I've always wondered what this little catchphrase meant. Could you give me a solid, all-inclusive description of this culture that is apparently held by the entirety of "the west"? And while we're at it at which geographical point do we draw the line between "east" and "west"?

Well, I am not in charge of assigning these catch phrases, I just grab onto the ones the I feel best express a concept that is currently recognized by most people, or is used in most contemporary new reports.

If you are looking for exact answers to your question then you don't understand the concept of culture. A concept such as culture can not be as easily defined as something like fruit, or even Great Britain, or Christianity, or Islam, as the boundaries that define different cultures are most often as difficult to identify as to what defines one age from another.

All I can do is give your my description of what I am talking about when I speak of Western Culture, which hopefully translates into the same version that most others hold when they hear the phrase Western Culture.

Essentially when I am talking about Western culture I am referring to the nations of Western Europe, USA, Canada, Japan, and S. Korea. These are the technologically advanced, first world nations that embrace representative government, market economics, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the rights of man, liberalism, a balance of power between branches of government, trial by a jury of ones peers, equal opportunity for all, the concept that all men are created equal, equal representation under the law, tolerance of others as long as they are tolerant of your own beliefs, as much as you are tolerant of their beliefs, diversity, pursuit of happiness, justice, truth, science, the scientific method, ect..

reply to post by poet1b


I believe that you can add the nations of New Zealand, Australia, and maybe South Africa to the list.

I don’t understand what the fuss is all about, Muslims want to have their own certain laws implemented into the UK laws and society.

Ok……logic please……

If Muslims want their laws introduced, then you must then allow every single other religion to have their own rules and regulations included into the law….

You also have to recognise that the American constitution underlines the core fact religions and governments don’t mix…..under no circumstances should religious views be practiced in government law…in politics…..

Don’t these people understand that if you live in a country whatever it is, you must obey the laws of the government….it’s as simple as that……that’s like me going to Iraq and wanting Christian laws practiced in the government. It makes no bloody sense. If I go to another country I must obey those laws…..what’s the point of the government if you’re just going live by your own way…… By that reasoning you could walk around in the streets naked because it’s apart of your belief system regardless of the governments view on it. The Law is there for a reason…..

I’m trying to imagine what this guy was thinking when thought this BS up…… Why is anyone even taking this seriously…??????????

Originally posted by poet1b
Well, I am not in charge of assigning these catch phrases, I just grab onto the ones the I feel best express a concept that is currently recognized by most people, or is used in most contemporary new reports.

No, you're not, but you should fully understand the concept and what it means to you. If you cannot define a term you use, you should not use it, because you don't know what it means. As a Sicilian once said, "Inconceivable!"

If you are looking for exact answers to your question then you don't understand the concept of culture. A concept such as culture can not be as easily defined as something like fruit, or even Great Britain, or Christianity, or Islam, as the boundaries that define different cultures are most often as difficult to identify as to what defines one age from another.

But that's exactly what you're doing. Western culture vs. eastern culture. You're drawing a line in the sand, declaring one side perfect and good and the other abominable and evil.

All I can do is give your my description of what I am talking about when I speak of Western Culture, which hopefully translates into the same version that most others hold when they hear the phrase Western Culture.

Essentially when I am talking about Western culture I am referring to the nations of Western Europe, USA, Canada, Japan, and S. Korea. These are the technologically advanced, first world nations that embrace representative government, market economics, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, the rights of man, liberalism, a balance of power between branches of government, trial by a jury of ones peers, equal opportunity for all, the concept that all men are created equal, equal representation under the law, tolerance of others as long as they are tolerant of your own beliefs, as much as you are tolerant of their beliefs, diversity, pursuit of happiness, justice, truth, science, the scientific method, ect..

It would be real nice if any of the nations you listed also held to the ideals you speak of. Seems you're being rather arbitrary, especially after telling me that a culture cannot be defined like a nation... and hten defining a culture by nations, mostly on a basis of GDP rather than, you know, culture

You really think Japan is in the same cultural grouping as the United States, or that while Portugal is, Brazil isn't? Like I said, arbitrary.

Try again please. Define "Western" culture in terms of culture. Note the differences it has with "Eastern" culture. And let's try to be realistic, here, okay? "The west" is no more a utopia of perfect rights than "the east" is a hooka den of festering wrongness.

Judging by the strength of public reaction and the response from politicians of all parties, this will never happen.
For once the whole nation seems to be in accord.

The only support for this has predictably come from the wishy washy, namby pamby PC brigade.

Even Church Of England elders and leaders seem to disassociating themselves from Rowan Williams who seems to be bunkering up in Lambeth Palace.
The Archbishop has seriously misjudged the mood of the nation.

All this seems to have achieved is to highlight the aims and goals of certain sections of the British Muslim community and provide a common, uniting cause for majority of British people.

This will never happen.

Spec Ops

Sorry, you are definitely right, I should include Australia and New Zealand, but I am not so sure about S. Africa.

Walking

Your reply was so predictable, I could have almost written it myself.

I have my definition of what culture is, just like everyone else. If you sat a thousand people down and had them answer the same question, you would get close to a thousand different answers, and the various answers that were the same would most likely be far too simplistic to be accurate, but in general, most of the answers would describe the same broad concept. The concept is not inconceivable, if it were, we wouldn't be talking about it, now would we.

You want an all inclusive definition of a concept that is extremely broad, and for which there is no specific definition, and then of course, you plan on sitting back and picking apart what ever answer I offer. Either the concept of culture is beyond your ability to understand, or you are just using cheap debate tactics, but either way, I will finish responding.

I didn't arbitrarily assign Western Culture, because I didn't attempt to give a specific list, I gave an essential list of nations the fall into the category of Western Culture and then described the ideals that identify these nations as Western culture. This is not West verses East Culture, Eastern Culture as defined by most people would be China, Japan, Korea, ect.. Japan and S. Korea are the most westernized, so they make good examples of the extension of Western Culture and the concept of Western Culture. Most of the nations of the world are westernizing, they are adopting the principles I described because most feel that these concepts, like the rights of man, freedom of religion and such, will enable their nations to advance and become first world nations.

Most importantly, I never said that Eastern Culture was evil or abominable or anything like that. What we are talking about here is Western Culture verses Muslim Culture, and once again, I never said that Muslim Culture was evil or abominable, what I said is the Muslim Culture is aggressive and in it's current form incompatible with Western Culture.

Muslim culture is a threat to Western Culture, and this is a reality. Extremist on both sides want to paint the other as the devil, and apologists in the middle want to paint everyone who points out the reality of this clash as the bad guys. Muslim Culture is aggressive, and Western Culture is going to have to take action to defend itself against this aggression. The sooner Western nations start to defend themselves, the less blood shed we are likely to see. Hey, we would all like to give peace a chance, but in order to do so, we have to be willing to stand up and take action to prevent those who are actively pushing for control over others, through all means available including violence and retaliation, from achieving their goals. Personally, I am not ready to surrender my liberty to maintain the peace. Give me liberty or give me death. Wake up and spread the battle cry before it is too late.

reply to post by poet1b


Your dead right! in my mind i view western culture as white(of european descent, even though most arab countries are white also, you might not agree with me on this point but the simple fact is that they are en.wikipedia.org... wiki i know but its right 99% of the time) culture to be honest about it, im not saying that all westernised people are white that would be bad logic, im just saying that it is a big part of it, it started with white people so thats what i associate with it, kinda like kamakazi will be associated with the japs for ever and hijacking planes with the muslims! And i know im generalising but hey thats life, if you dont like go suck a lemon!

why is this such a hard thing to discuss ???? Fairly obvious really, If you live in a certain country you abide by there laws and rules... England is too old skool to adopt this in my opinion... keep it in your own country and if you dont like it you can always move away.

I'm all for world peace and everyone having the right to practice their own religions etc but this is taking it a bit too far. Like a previous post said I can see Civil war before this becomes a reality

Originally posted by poet1b
Walking

Your reply was so predictable, I could have almost written it myself.

It's easy to predict a response to a poorly-thought-out statement. THough to your credit, you DID make the effort.

I have my definition of what culture is, just like everyone else. If you sat a thousand people down and had them answer the same question, you would get close to a thousand different answers, and the various answers that were the same would most likely be far too simplistic to be accurate, but in general, most of the answers would describe the same broad concept. The concept is not inconceivable, if it were, we wouldn't be talking about it, now would we.

Merriam-Webster online:

5 a: the integrated pattern of human knowledge, belief, and behavior that depends upon the capacity for learning and transmitting knowledge to succeeding generations b: the customary beliefs, social forms, and material traits of a racial, religious, or social group; also : the characteristic features of everyday existence (as diversions or a way of life] shared by people in a place or time c: the set of shared attitudes, values, goals, and practices that characterizes an institution or organization d: the set of values, conventions, or social practices associated with a particular field, activity, or societal characteristic

To walking
You cant call democracy a tool, it is an idea and nothing more, im pretty sure every one who reads the post's knows what western culture is, although to get a true grasp you have to live in a un westerised country to get a good perspective on it, why cant you get your head around the fact that western culture does in fact exist?simply me saying it exists makes it so, and the more people that say so make it stronger, simple!where's the problem, just cause you can't quantify it easily does not mean it does not exist which is your entire argument, what would you suggest replaces the idea of western culture in peoples minds id love to know?

to all the people discusing this the UK as a whole is of christian belief and will remain so, only if we stop the bleeding hearts in society trying to make the world a better place , it wont happen, islamic law and religon are too extreme in their application, and we of the christian world are too busy loving our neibhours to the extent we dont see the storm coming,if they want sharia law the go home and have sharia law , but that wont happen either again we are not allowed to deport them , well im sorry i say kick them all out all civil war will follow enoch powell was bang on"streets running with blood"

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
reply to post by artistoli

 

Your attitude to Islam is based on media.

Like I said muslims civillians ARE going on with daily lives, the people that are in control are who we need to worry about.

[edit on 8-2-2008 by _Phoenix_]

Partly my attitude is based on media... just as your attitude to the right-wing is most likely based on media - so that really isn't an issue. Almost everything is based on media. You are reading a form of media right now.

I would also like to point out though that my attitude regarding Islam is very much based on real world experiences here in the UK. A few follow:

- Having spent my childhood in Dudley in the British West Midlands, and then having recently returned I have seen first-hand how the compartively small local Muslim population have been agressively hijacking the community and local government. This includes the local Muslim community repeatedly attempting to gain planning permission for what would be Europe's largest mosque literally a mile from where I now sit. The majority of the local population have protested against it time and again but they Muslims continue.
- Having lived in Brixton I have witnessed how many 'Islamic Community Centres' (that are partly government funded) are basically nothing but meeting grounds for extremists. They preach in the open, without any the police taking any action.
- I have seen first hand how companies that myself, my family and friends have worked for have been forced to go to ludicrous lengths to appease their tiny minority of Muslim staff (GAP for example converting changing rooms into prayer rooms and giving Muslims extra breaks in order to pray).
- I have experienced the obscene way in which at high school in England you get Islamic history and 'culture' shoved down your throat whilst at the same time they won't dare mention British culture or history except ot condem it as almost facist.
- A family member works for one of the largest urban local authority in the UK, in quite a senior role and is constantly passing on shocking stories of how the council is affraid to stand up to the minority of Muslims for fear of being branded 'racists' and how public funds are flowing into less than legitimate 'Islamic Cultural Centres'.
- I have seen my own father suffer homophobic abuse from Muslims in Birmingham
- I have lived with two Hindu girls and heard many first hand accounts of the abuse their families have recieved from Muslim neighbours in certain areas of the Midlands and London.

So, yes, you are right - much of my attitude stems from the media.. but a whole lot more is from what my own eyes have seen and my own ears have heard here on the ground in the UK.

the funny thing is if they did any of that stuff in a middle eastern country they would get shot for acting up,only in a western country are you left do stuff like this, i mean how long was it before captin hook(dont know his name) got deported from britain, the fella that was always sayin he was gonna do this and that to britain and all the infidels should burn, and it was 50-50 for him to be deported, my philosphy is live and let live, but if you dont like the team get the [Mod Edit] out of the stadium!

[edit on 10-2-2008 by Pro-genetic]




[Mod Edit: Please see ABOUT ATS: Vulgarity and The Automatic ATS Censors. Thank you - Jak]

[edit on 10/2/08 by JAK]

Hi There,

The response to the Archbishop's comments has been vapid, vitriolic, and fearful. There does feel to be a agenda behind his comments, but the largest effect has been something of a multi-polarisation, not towards Christianity or religious belief and creed in general, but one of a political sociology that counts any form of pandering to religious belief or creed as being anathema to modern British culture.

Modern Britain is a 'secular' country wherein much of its population hold to traditional beliefs of religion, but do not want religion to play any part in the political sociology of its society. However, this does not fully provide a full understanding of how this social paradox functions. For most of those whom identify themselves with Christianity (about 72% of the population. census 2001) do so, not out of religious practice, but out of traditional identity, having no actual connection to a church or the religion practiced therein. This issue for historical Britons is a issue of identity, and the corrosive elements of that identity that have seemingly denied them, or more to the point, undermined that historical 'British' identity to a point where multiculturalism can take a hold. Historical 'British-ness' is seemingly viewed as racist and nationalistic, and is something that required drastic dilution if the march of globalisation wass not to be checked (something of a similar nature is evident for the national identity of other nations).

Nevertheless, the Archbishop's comments have been met with serious critical effrontery and indignation, and actually displays a sneaky politic which is used in a number of religions for purposes nefarious. All religions want their creed to be enshrined within the law of the state, and none will stop until it is achieved. Religion and state must NEVER be allowed to commune on lawful equality. The people of Britain consent themselves to be subjectd to the state law, they do not (and probably never will) consent themselves to be subjected to any one particular religious creed or faith. The former is social, the latter personal.

I have no problem with religion being something of importance to an individual, and being a personal and private matter of practice and belief to that individual, but I do have a problem with it being something as important as state. A individual's beliefs should never be raised so high as to dictate the beliefs of others, not by any means, and that pertains to all aspects of social life.

Here is a informative link...

www.vexen.co.uk...

[edit on 10/2/08 by elysiumfire]

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


And you continue to be even more predictable. The question you asked inevitably would lead to this type of discussion.

SO, according to you, "There is no such thing as "western culture" buddy."

Really, then why are we talking about it? Perform an internet search and see what you get. A great many people are talking about this thing that you claim does not exist. How is that?

You want exact definition for broad concepts, and only someone who doesn't have a clue what they are talking about would demand such a thing, as if you have the right. You might want to re-read the definition that you posted, because nowhere in your provided definition of culture does it state that beliefs have to be universal. Cultures mix, they don't have borders like nations, once again this seems to be beyond your grasp. Different cultures mix, and sometimes they create new cultures, and then often historians will try to define the different cultural influences that created the new identified culture. In todays modern world, many cultures tend to exist in most nations. At the same time, most nations tend to be dominated by one primary culture, with a broad mix of other cultures. Go take a class at some community college, or if you are one of these overly educated types, go visit another country, like Saudi Arabia, and see how willing they are to peacefully discuss religion with you, or if you are a Muslim, as I suspect, then I suggest Eastern Germany, or Idaho.

Yes, these things you mention, like plows, do reflect cultural influence. Ideals tend to be positive, and if you asked me to define Muslim culture, I would find other different positive things to say.

The reality is that Islam is a threat to not only Western Culture, but if you look around the globe, to all cultures it encounters. Your rambling responses only make you look like an idealist without a solid understanding of the world, or a propagandist whose only intent is to twist the concepts presented to make it appear that you have something to say. You have yet to make one legitimate statement to counter the facts that I have presented.

The Western concept of separation of church and state, freedom of religion, balance of power, and numerous other western based beliefs are completely in opposition to the Muslim concept of religious based law. This is the reality, and the aggressive actions of Muslims to push their beliefs on others is exactly what is creating the numerous conflicts that exist not only between the West and the Muslim world, but between the Muslim world and all other religions and cultures that they encounter.

I can't point my finger at all the examples the clearly demonstrate Muslim aggression, because I would have to be able to point my finger in all directions at once, so wide spread is the abuse that Muslims constantly rain down upon the world. The first blows in this conflict were made Long ago. The problem is that the Muslim world insists on perpetuating conflict. The Muslim world preaches peace on one side, while calling for war on the other. The only real question is,

What will it take to end Muslim aggression?

No infringement on the rights of citizens is impossible when the people do not have the right to bear arms. Come to think of it, there are no citizens in Britain, they are "subjects".

Hi

All this rubbish about the sharriah law is hysterical and just out to deamonise islam. Firstly there is not single law in this country, UK that is, just look at fathers and you will see how they treated, the woman gets everything the kids, the house, his salary, totall bollocks when its says all is equal before the law, its a mess, CSA is a dam nightmare, and the family courts are just as bad, the amount of rights women have in this country makes muslims look like they need protecting. As for shaariah law, i bet no one here has stuided it and do not know what is about.

As for shaariah law being implimented in so call muslim countries, none have it.


Saudia arabia has a king, forbidden by islam, and destroys its own hertiage, this is perplexing as the quran and islam, see history as very important. Iran has based its on its traditions outside sunni isalm, more simliar to christainity etc.

here u go look at this lot. Here are the legal systems of muslim countries today.

Morrocoo
www.cia.gov...
Bahrain
www.cia.gov...
Egypt
www.cia.gov...

napoleonic is french law

Syria
www.cia.gov...

Algeria
www... Algeria.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sy.html

Pakistan
www.cia.gov...


Tunisia

www.cia.gov...

Nigera
www.cia.gov...

Saudia Arabia
www.cia.gov...
note based on islamic law, but also sectar laws as well

Iran
www.cia.gov...

based on the #e version of shaaria law, which is different to sunni islam


Indonesia: note its the larges muslim country in the world.
www.cia.gov...

Sudan

www.cia.gov...

See not shariah law dominating the muslim world. I wish people get off there back side and do some legwork

Originally posted by artistoli


Partly my attitude is based on media... just as your attitude to the right-wing is most likely based on media - so that really isn't an issue. Almost everything is based on media. You are reading a form of media right now.

I would also like to point out though that my attitude regarding Islam is very much based on real world experiences here in the UK. A few follow:

OK I'm going to make this simple.

I talk to muslims everyday, I am muslim, I have never talked about sharia law once LOL. Not even once the subject has come up.

I don't care for sharia law, in my opinion from what I have seen it is a corrupt system that I would hate to see here.

I've been busy for a couple of days and I don't really remember what you have against what I'm saying and why you added me to your foe's, sorry lol.

So basically, stop worrying! and that goes for everyone else that worries, because it's not going to happen! and muslims ARE living by the rules of the goverment. Why do you think muslims live in this country!? they like this country the way it is!

These are words from archbishop, I mean forget about it! is he muslim??? There is nothing more to talk about. Forget about this nonsense.